The Catholic Church Ate My Hamsters!

Father Damo wrote: »

But its hardly happening in Ireland 2012 is it.

[QUOTES] My own Dad (church goer) calls gay men paedophiles.

As would a few lads in their 20s who drink in bars I drink in.

Most of whom probably havent been to mass since their teens and have forgotten how to bless themselves. Im not sure the church has anything to do with it.

Several African politicians have made similar claims. It is the fault of the individual if they decide to go on the word of these wannabe magicians rather than medical advice.

Are these guys you know educated in any way? Very childish attitude.

What sort of place do you think Africa is? It's not like Europe. Low levels of literacy, voodoo cultures, low standards of education, etc. .
Perhaps they should 'drive' to their local doctor, or even open up their laptop in their penthouse apartment and do a Google search. :rolleyes:

Father Damo wrote: »

Im just more amused at Irish people rebelling against something that in 2012 Ireland is a non existant problem! We could have done with all this in the 1950s when there was actually something to rebel against. If anything the church killed itself off by putting little to no importance in indoctrinating kids through the schools.

Still kind of ongoing, given the Churches repeated attempts to ignore and cover up the whole kid ****ing thing that went on.

Father Damo wrote: »

If anything the church killed itself off by putting little to no importance in indoctrinating kids through the schools.

Well as long as the Catholic-run schools continue to teach morals to students from their Big Book of Stories for Every Situation, they are in fact indoctrinating children. Unless the subject of religion taught in primary schools is modified to teach students about all world religions, and offer them a choice to make their own minds up.. by letting them know that that is a valid option.

later10 wrote: »

Yes, I think that's likely to have been very much the case.

It's likely that Christianity partially formalised a social system which had already existed in Ireland, changed a little of what was different, and retained other aspects for itself.

But no human being is born at a specific point along the scale of conservatism. Philosophy is not genetic. Catholic morality has traditionally been Irish society's acquired phenotype, not its innate one. It self perpetuates down the generations through observed actions and social customs, not bloodlines.

Would Catholic-influenced morality still self-perpetuate in the total absence of the Catholic Church? Possibly, yes. But at least it would be more exposed to question and criticism, not dressed up in the garb and sanctity of a religious faith which almost legitimises it simply because it's someone's faith, and that's off limits.

Personally, I would strongly favour

But we are not doomed to the philosophy of our forbears. While Christianity, and later Roman Catholicism was evidently compatible with the Irish psyche, it

Sigh - The church had very little influence on secular life in Gaelic Ireland.
For an examination of how little Christianity actually mattered in the Middle Ages read Dáibhí Ó Cróinín (professor of History NUIG) Early Medieval Ireland, 400–1200, (London and New York, 1995.)

Divorce was simple - Hugh O Neill had 6 wives. Unlike Henry VIII he didn't have to kill them - he just divorced them.

There was no concept of illegitimacy. The child's mother said who the child's father was ('Naming') - this did not have to be her husband. There is no record of a man thus 'named' denying it. Hugh O Neill's father Matthew was 'named' as the son of Con O'Neill (1st earl of Tyrone) when Matthew was 12 years old (coincidently this was around the same time as Con became an earl). Con not only agreed he was Matthew's father - he declared him the heir to the earldom.

If a man failed to sexually satisfy his wife due to impotence or being homosexual - she could divorce him and get compensation. If he knew prior to the marriage that his homosexuality meant he was unable to have enough sex with his wife to satisfy her - she got the house too.

There is loads more (I used to lecture on this stuff ) but essentially - the Gaelic Irish were known throughout Europe for their promiscuity. And it was a reputation well deserved.

AngryBollix wrote: »

What about the flip side to that coin?

While nobody can deny the harm that has been caused in the name of god and religion, decent people of faith have improved the lives of those around them and done good work which is sometimes overlooked

Absolutly, that is the point of the OP, i am just pointing out that damage done by religion does not have to affect you to be damaging.

later10 wrote: »

What are you talking about?

I didn't say that Christianity had a dominant influence on Irish society during the early Christian period. I said it partially formalised a pre-Christian social order. I have no idea how you interpreted that as the suggestion that early christianity suddenly changed Ireland.

Afraid not in Ireland..or Scotland for that matter..

It all has to do with who was and who wan't in the Roman Empire.

Imperial Rome would come along, take over, impose centralisation and their own legal system, 'adopt' the local Gods and change their names, impose Roman culture, create an infrastructure and build cities.
The Roman Catholic church then used that existing structure. A diocese for example was the Roman administrative name for a geographical region. The RCC is just that - the church of ROME. It attached religion to the trappings of the empire - when the empire fell, the church was poised to fill the vacuum. And it did.

The Roman empire never got to Ireland. So it remained tribal, had no cities until the Vikings built them, had no central authority with control over the whole island until the Tudors imposed it, already had its own legal code and culture which existed for at least a thousand years before Christ and survived until into the 17th century, etc etc.

In fact, scholars of the early Christian church in Ireland are still debating why the Gaelic Christian church followed the model of the Egyptian Coptic church rather then Rome.

Gerald of Wales had a lot to say about that in the 12th century. The Gaelic church did not evangelise in Ireland at all, where it was based around independent monastic settlements (often very isolated) which were controlled by the ruling clan in the region.

From the 6th to the 12 centuries there was a serious power struggle between the Gaelic church and the Roman church - Rome won.

So no, the church of Rome did not partially formalised a pre-Christian social order. It actually worked with the crown of England to bring Ireland 'into line' - which meant destroying the existing social order completely.

Twice the Pope granted control of Ireland to English monarchs in perpetuity. First to Henry II in the 12th century and later to Mary I in the 16th. It also supported the Act of Union in 1801.

One of the great spin doctor successes of the Roman church is how it has convinced the people of Ireland that we were always Catholic - when in fact that only became the case as a result of Tudor policies and also that the Church was on the side of the Irish people's struggle for independence when quite the opposite was the case - up to excommunicating Republicans during the war of Independence.

Wonder if that success could have anything to do with the fact that they have such control over our educational system?

And before anyone jumps in with - well they may have had that kinda control in the 50s like, but not now. When did ye're parents go to school? 40s/50s? What did they learn there that the passed on to you?

Much of the incorrect rubbish posing as 'history' exists as 'sure everyone knows...'( - it has to because the historical evidence contradicts the church's version) this crap has has its foundation in the ****e taught in Irish schools for generations. Hedge schools for example were not conducted by priests trying to save Catholicism (and the souls of the Irish ha!) they were conducted by scholars trying to save Gaelic culture and the language - a culture and language the Roman church aided the English administration in destroying.

later10 wrote: »

I think you're making a schoolchild's error of answering the question that you want to answer, and not responding to what was said.

The issue is essentially a matter of why Christianity was successful in its earliest years in Ireland. And a significant reason for this was Irish moral and religious law, which was more systematic and more centralised than Brehon and which was less heterogenous, oral in tradition at first, and more diffuse. A fine example of the influence of Christianity,and this compromise between the Pagan relics and Christian morality and would be the the Seanchas Mor, which was known sometimes as Cain Phadraig.

Not only did Irish christianity help to formalise the social order of the region in a legal sense, its systemic and comprehensive treatment of Catholic mythology and superstition was highly compatible with the population and its own pre-existing mythology,which again had never had an outlet in formal or written form prior to Christianity, which could provide a more consistent source of myth which the natives could live with quite happily.

Most of that makes no sense whatsoever!

Seriously, Give me strength - it wasn't bloody successful in it's earliest years in Ireland. It was a few hundred monks stuck on a craggy rock somewhere.
Up until the 12th century there were people in Ireland who never even heard of Christianity - and could care less.



Church law may have been more centralised and systematic then Brehon law but it also had no impact in Ireland and Brehon Law continued to be used until the Tudor period!!!!!!

Please go and read a decent history book before spouting nonsense and accusing other people of making a schoolchild's error. I would recommend the Daithi O Cronin one I referred to in a previous post as a good starting point.

as125634do wrote: »

Explains it all really when u say strict irish catholic u think sexually frustrated and likely to start a fight over something. Fighting irish? Wat a lie we got owned by the church and english. After reading this thread you canhardly blame the church for pedo if our societyvwas alreaeyvpromiscuous

What are you on about?

as125634do wrote: »

Explains it all really when u say strict irish catholic u think sexually frustrated and likely to start a fight over something. Fighting irish? Wat a lie we got owned by the church and english. After reading this thread you canhardly blame the church for pedo if our societyvwas alreaeyvpromiscuous

Ah yes, promiscuity, a gateway act to kiddy-fiddling.

Or not.