Should the rich pay higher fines ?

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2012 01:54PM #1

I can remember a time when the fine for speeding here was £50 and was treated as a business expense.

In Finland if you break the law you can get fined fixed penalty and all that.
If you take the piss then the fine is proportional to your income.

http://www.globalmotors.net/finnish-millionaire-gets-111888-euro-speeding-ticket/

A Finnish millionaire Jari Bär, the former owner of the Iisalmi’s company Finnritilä was handed a fine
of 111,888 euros (141,661 dollars)
for doing 82 km/h (51 mph) in a 60 km/h (37 mph) zone on January in Siilijärvi, Finland.

According to Savon Sanomat if the speed had been 80 km/h the fine would have been only 115 Euros.

...

Why such a huge speeding ticket? In Finland fines are issued according to ones salary per day. As Mr. Bär was 2 km over the standard fine range he had to pay his 12 days income. If his income in 2007 had been 50 euros a day, then the ticket would have been 600 euros.

One big problem I can see here is that a lot of rich people here don't declare their income fully. Look at how many Tax Amnesty's and tribunals we've had. :mad:

I'm not talking just about speeding, but about stuff where there are clear signs where existing fines are not a deterrent to those who can readily afford them and where they are completely taking the piss. Like the weights and measures on petrol stations. Or serial repeat evaders.

Al Capwned · 10-01-2012 01:56PM

Yep a percentage of your weekly income would be better!

80euro to me is a fortune, whereas some f*ckers can leave it as a tip!

AnonoBoy · 10-01-2012 02:01PM

Whenever I get stuck with a fine I'm all like, "Don't you know who I am? I own this town - I'll have your badge officer. You'll be putting out littering fines in coldest Alaska by the time I'm through with you."

So yes, I think higher fines should be enforced against me to stop this sort of behaviour.

dotsman · 10-01-2012 02:02PM

alproctor wrote: »

Yep a percentage of your weekly income would be better!

80euro to me is a fortune, whereas some f*ckers can leave it as a tip!

What happens if you don't have a "weekly income"?

Blazer · 10-01-2012 02:03PM

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????

Plus I imagine it potentially could become an equality issue as well....I mean why should I pay more than Joe Soap just because I earn more...if that's not discrimination I don't know what is..
Isn't it enough I hand over about 51% of my income on tax?

seamus · 10-01-2012 02:04PM

Irish Constitution:

All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

Any attempt to salary-link fines would fall foul of this IMO.

Though in principle I'm not against it as a monetary punishment is only punishment if you will miss it. Plenty of the faux-riche during the boom years were known for preferring to risk an €80 parking fine rather than have to search for a remote parking spot with the peasants.

It would make sense to reword the legislation so that it sets out the minimum fine for an offence, but the judge may impose any fine he deems reasonable above that. At present the legislation tends to set the ceiling on a fine.

admiralofthefleet · 10-01-2012 02:07PM

no. people who may have worked very hard to get rich shouldnt have to. when it comes to tax they shoould pay more though

Cianos · 10-01-2012 02:07PM

I often see very expensive cars taking the pi$$ in the bus lanes - and it probably makes economical "sense" for a lot of them....even if they get fined once every few months, but within that time save themselves a couple of hours, if their time is worth more than ~50/hour which it probably is, then even with the fines it's worth it.

Chuck Stone · 10-01-2012 02:16PM

Blazer wrote: »

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????

'They' would still have to pay fines and also be subject to penalty points.

Flat charges like VAT, the TV licence, and fines are proportionately a greater burden on middle and lower income earners, people on welfare, disability, and pensions.

It's a fairer way to apply fines.

AngryPensioner · 10-01-2012 02:23PM

seamus wrote: »

Irish Constitution:

Any attempt to salary-link fines would fall foul of this IMO.

Though in principle I'm not against it as a monetary punishment is only punishment if you will miss it. Plenty of the faux-riche during the boom years were known for preferring to risk an €80 parking fine rather than have to search for a remote parking spot with the peasants.

It would make sense to reword the legislation so that it sets out the minimum fine for an offence, but the judge may impose any fine he deems reasonable above that. At present the legislation tends to set the ceiling on a fine.

The Irish Constitution isn't used anymore though. The EU commission make the laws of this country now.

Toby Take a Bow · 10-01-2012 02:28PM

Blazer wrote: »

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????

Plus I imagine it potentially could become an equality issue as well....I mean why should I pay more than Joe Soap just because I earn more...if that's not discrimination I don't know what is..
Isn't it enough I hand over about 51% of my income on tax?

They'd be paying the same (but relative) amount of their income as you would. Otherwise they're paying (proportionately) more, which doesn't make sense.

You pay proportionate income tax so why not apply this to other taxes too?

I would guess that the logistics of imposing such a fine might be a headache and take a long time to implement.

44leto · 10-01-2012 02:29PM

In traffic offences we are all penalised by points, which is a kind of equaliser. I don't speed but I still have gotten 2 speeding fines once going 65 in a 60 zone and another for going slightly over 80 in an 80 zone. I find you do have to be very careful in the 60 zones, the speed limit in most these zones don't make sense, you think you are in an 80.

80€ is a lot of money to me and it is a very punitive fine and very much a deterrent. I do know a well off man and the fines are not punitive, 80€ is probably an hours wages to him, but he is on 10 points and clinging dearly to his licence. But he always liked his fast sports cars.

oldyouth · 10-01-2012 02:33PM

If everything in life was in relation to your earnings, where's the incentive for people to better themselves. Why should a wealthy person have to pay more for a fine?

Run_to_da_hills · 10-01-2012 02:55PM

With a fair few drivers signing on in Ireland I couldn't see much money being raised if they took on that approach.

Al Capwned · 10-01-2012 02:55PM

Blazer wrote: »

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????
?

Please tell i've picked you up wrong and you dont think that all people on welfare are scumbags?

Wile E. Coyote · 10-01-2012 02:58PM

dotsman wrote: »

What happens if you don't have a "weekly income"?

Then you can't afford to own a car and shouldn't be on the road.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2012 03:11PM

seamus wrote: »

Irish Constitution:

All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

Any attempt to salary-link fines would fall foul of this IMO.

Can't see why

For someone on low income many of the fixed penalty points would represent a huge chunk of their weekly disposable income.

Perhaps as a first stage we could index link fines. IIRC the max fine for running an unlicensed pub is just £50

juan.kerr · 10-01-2012 03:14PM

Maybe the poor should pay higher fines. Makes about as much sense as the rich paying higher fines.

Run_to_da_hills · 10-01-2012 03:16PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Then you can't afford to own a car and shouldn't be on the road.

Most people in this country don't own their cars. Ie they belong to the banks, credit unions etc. Many of these have been laid off recently.

Al Capwned · 10-01-2012 03:16PM

juan.kerr wrote: »

Maybe the poor should pay higher fines. Makes about as much sense as the rich paying higher fines.

:rolleyes:

10-01-2012 03:31PM

Feel sorry for the lad who fell foul to the same system.. The fine was based on his previous years earnings and he had all but went bankrupt between then and the fine. I'm sure some retard in here will try and justify that but it's impossible.

We're either capitalist or we're not. Who give a fuk if the less well off pay a higher proportion of their income. They're less well off. You start applying this system to everything and it's just a form of communism. Everyone will have equal buying power regardless of wealth.

My parking fines used to kill me but it didn't make me wish the Mercedes next door should pay 5,000euro while I pay 60euro.

seamus · 10-01-2012 03:36PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Can't see why

Because in absolute terms a higher fine is a greater punishment, therefore you are not treating a rich person equally before the law.

It's all interpretation of course, but it doesn't really matter that one person would find €80 more difficult than another, the point is that they are both being fined equal amounts. For legal purposes those people are equals, their salaries are irrelevant, therefore they receive equal fines.

10-01-2012 03:40PM

No way, its complete bull. The punishment should be the same if your on the dole or are a millionaire. I think its a disgrace the way its done in Finland.

Son Of A Vidic · 10-01-2012 03:43PM

OP - Yes the rich should pay higher fines in proportion to their income and then multiply it by a factor of 10.

juan.kerr · 10-01-2012 03:49PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

OP - Yes the rich should pay higher fines in proportion to their income and then multiply it by a factor of 10.

And lets start locking up the poor for all motoring offences.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2012 04:59PM

juan.kerr wrote: »

And lets start locking up the poor for all motoring offences.

Actually we do lock up the poor when they don't pay fines

we would probably lock up the rich too, but they usually pay up at that stage

Mr. Presentable · 10-01-2012 05:03PM

alproctor wrote: »

Please tell i've picked you up wrong and you dont think that all people on welfare are scumbags?

You have what he said backwards. He said all the scrumbags are on welfare :pac:

FTGFOP · 10-01-2012 05:21PM

oldyouth wrote: »

Why should a wealthy person have to pay more for a fine?

So that it's an effective deterrent for wealthy people, I suppose.

juan.kerr · 10-01-2012 05:24PM

FTGFOP wrote: »

So that it's an effective deterrent for wealthy people, I suppose.

So we don't mind less well off people continuing to commit the offences, we just don't want wealthy people doing so. Makes sense.

dotsman · 10-01-2012 05:29PM

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Then you can't afford to own a car and shouldn't be on the road.

Um, you do realise that the richest people don't get a weekly wage?

Business owners typically don't accumulate the majority of their wealth through wages, but through share dividends/appreciation and one-off payments

What about tradesmen? How do you define their weekly income? What about small business owners, farmers, musicians, actors, self employed people etc? A lot of people don't have a defined weekly wage. Only regular employees in full time employment in a single job could define a weekly wage.

WhatAMelon · 10-01-2012 05:30PM

Yes, they should. A fine could hurt a poor person would mean nothing for the rich.

Should the rich pay higher fines ?

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