what qualifies phd students to correct papers?

Giselle · 09-01-2012 12:12AM

SeaFields wrote: »

Any first year work I marked was generally average too. I'd end up with a vast majority of high C, low B's essays each time. No matter how well you know the material, it takes practice to be able to write an academic essay.

You can usually work out who the really gifted and interested students are by the end of their first year. They aren't the ones complaining about who's marking the paper!

I like being of use to my students, and I like to think our learning experiences are mutually enhanced.

prettygurrly · 09-01-2012 12:12AM

Ha, I had to laugh at the comment of students in a technical field losing their "writing skills". I wrote over 14000 words this year on top of all the lab reports and presentations that I had to do over the last year. I've taken care to watch my apostrophes and full stops in this particular statement but generally on boards I don't bother even with capital letters. In my opinion, posting in a forum does not require extremely formal language and excellent use of grammar, I like to take a break sometimes!

With regards to lecturers not working through the summer. Eh, not likely. That's the time that they get as much writing and presenting done as they can as well as fieldwork (if they can find a project which will let them turn up). They also get to spend some time with their family which during the year they don't (it's called paid leave, I believe everyone that is employed in this country is entitled to it). It's obvious that the OP has no idea of the workings of a university which goes to show that they are not an authority on what is appropriate for correcting exams/essays/lab reports etc. Sadly as an undergrad you are small fry. Even now as a PhD student, I'm small fry but I still know a hell of a lot more than you in my chosen field! I'd say the same would go for the PhD student who corrected your essay.

*my keypad is not working correctly at the moment...there may be some obvious letters missing in words that I have not noticed*

Niles · 09-01-2012 12:22AM

Doesn't surprise me - when I was in doing my BA at least one of our tutors was only doing a Masters... I'm sure if got to the stage where you're doing a Phd. you're proficient enough to correct papers. After all in many cases PhD students are concentrating on a particular area of their subject, so I don't see why they wouldn't be capable of correcting essays and the like.

I also had one lecturer (as opposed to tutor) who didn't have (or at least didn't use) the word "Doctor" in his title, but was certainly quite knowledgeable on his subject.

09-01-2012 12:59AM

I've never been happy with PhD students teaching or correcting. I've always found them pedantic, unfair and harsh. I got 58 for the first essay I did for my Masters and asked the PhD student to explain why she had given me such a low mark. I found her criticism very wishy washy and she kept contradicting herself and just came across as an annoying know-it-all. The next essay was marked by the course director and I got 80. Ended up with 75+ in every module and a distinction for the Masters. Your one was just overly harsh, as I had suspected.

Ostrom · 09-01-2012 01:08AM

Been grading papers about four years now. A phd is supposed to be an apprenticeship for an academic career (which includes admin, teaching, presentation, research and writing). As a tutor i'm often better placed to deal personally with students, and i've never 'given' a mark to anyone - i translate their work based on a set answer scale, and pass any questionable grades up to lecturers. Never had a grade queried in four years, nor has my position as a student ever been an issue.

SeaFields · 09-01-2012 01:09AM

Koa Crooked Whirlpool wrote: »

I've never been happy with PhD students teaching or correcting. I've always found them pedantic, unfair and harsh. I got 58 for the first essay I did for my Masters and asked the PhD student to explain why she had given me such a low mark. I found her criticism very wishy washy and she kept contradicting herself and just came across as an annoying know-it-all. The next essay was marked by the course director and I got 80. Ended up with 75+ in every module and a distinction for the Masters. Your one was just overly harsh, as I had suspected.

Research students should never been correcting taught postgraduate work. That's a big no no from me- even if its in their area of research. When I was correcting second year undergraduate was the limit on corrections.

RichieC · 09-01-2012 01:37AM

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Brainier doesn't make them experts on the subjects/topics that are being examined. So it's still wrong.

Somehow I don't think you'll have art students correcting Maths or Biology papers. but that's just a stab in the dark.

John Doe1 · 09-01-2012 01:46AM

I would say having a masters degree and studying for a PHD is a good qualifier

slum dog · 09-01-2012 11:13AM

tbh i wouldnt want a phd student that goes around wearing a man bag correcting my papers, he is barely old enough to grow facial hair never mind give his 'expert' opinion on any subject

i lived with a science phd student last year who was doing her research project on cancer. every night she used to sit in front of the tv eating hob nobs and cakes correcting papers and she was as fat as a fool. i said to her one day that if she wanted to know what causes cancer she should take a good long hard look at herself

thanks for everybody who contributed to the thread. i didnt know univerisites operated like this.
from what i gather from this thread, there doesnt seem to be any regulations stopping lecturers from lecturering in a field they are not familiar with. its very easy for a lecturer to stand up in a class and read directly from a book and those lecturers i find are easy to spot.

take everything · 09-01-2012 11:24AM

Was always shocked at the ignorance of some PhD students when i did my Masters. A lot of statistics for example wasn't understood/used properly. Became disillusioned with the lack of rigour in the end.

prettygurrly · 09-01-2012 11:30AM

slum dog wrote: »

from what i gather from this thread, there doesnt seem to be any regulations stopping lecturers from lecturering in a field they are not familiar with. its very easy for a lecturer to stand up in a class and read directly from a book and those lecturers i find are easy to spot.

Not totally true. If your course is accredited then there are strict regulations and standards of teaching that must be adhered to. However, I make the point again, you're only an undergrad. You really have no idea of what's ahead of you or the amount of work lecturers have to put into their job. Lecturing has got to the point of how much money you can bring in with funding as opposed to how much teaching you do. Believe me, undergrads are the least of their worries. If you dont like your mark, then contest it.

RonMexico · 09-01-2012 11:34AM

slum dog wrote: »

tbh i wouldnt want a phd student that goes around wearing a man bag correcting my papers, he is barely old enough to grow facial hair never mind give his 'expert' opinion on any subject

i lived with a science phd student last year who was doing her research project on cancer. every night she used to sit in front of the tv eating hob nobs and cakes correcting papers and she was as fat as a fool. i said to her one day that if she wanted to know what causes cancer she should take a good long hard look at herself

thanks for everybody who contributed to the thread. i didnt know univerisites operated like this.
from what i gather from this thread, there doesnt seem to be any regulations stopping lecturers from lecturering in a field they are not familiar with. its very easy for a lecturer to stand up in a class and read directly from a book and those lecturers i find are easy to spot.

You haven't a clue.

PhD Student

Paracore · 09-01-2012 11:43AM

slum dog wrote: »

tbh i wouldnt want a phd student that goes around wearing a man bag correcting my papers, he is barely old enough to grow facial hair never mind give his 'expert' opinion on any subject

i lived with a science phd student last year who was doing her research project on cancer. every night she used to sit in front of the tv eating hob nobs and cakes correcting papers and she was as fat as a fool. i said to her one day that if she wanted to know what causes cancer she should take a good long hard look at herself

thanks for everybody who contributed to the thread. i didnt know univerisites operated like this.
from what i gather from this thread, there doesnt seem to be any regulations stopping lecturers from lecturering in a field they are not familiar with. its very easy for a lecturer to stand up in a class and read directly from a book and those lecturers i find are easy to spot.

It is hardly the fault of a PHD student that you are too thick to get above 40 on an exam.

slum dog · 09-01-2012 11:56AM

Paracore wrote: »

It is hardly the fault of a PHD student that you are too thick to get above 40 on an exam.

rich coming from someone who uses internet dating and is from donegal

Shiny · 09-01-2012 12:14PM

I have been correcting hundreds engineering assignments up until Christmas and my general observation is that you get a relatively good mark unless you are taking the piss.

The common reason for lost marks was laziness pure and simple.

Also if anyone had a problem with their mark I had no problem remarking their assignment and modifying their result if warranted.

randylonghorn · 09-01-2012 12:34PM

Arianna_26 wrote: »

I believe you, I just find it a bit crazy. In any other country I would think it couldn't be true but in Ireland I believe you

On the contrary ... it's no more common in Ireland than elsewhere. In the US for example many PhD students are contracted as TAs as well (Teaching Assistants), and are often closely matched with individual lecturers who will often be their research supervisor as well. It's not uncommon for them to "sub" for the lecturer for teaching as well if s/he is ill or away.

09-01-2012 12:44PM

randylonghorn wrote: »

On the contrary ... it's no more common in Ireland than elsewhere. In the US for example many PhD students are contracted as TAs as well (Teaching Assistants), and are often closely matched with individual lecturers who will often be their research supervisor as well. It's not uncommon for them to "sub" for the lecturer for teaching as well if s/he is ill or away.

You have to remember that the majority of people have no idea what actually goes on behind the scenes at a University, even people who attended at undergrad level.

For instance an awful lot of people are under the impression that the biggest part of a lecturers job (Senior researcher or professor would be better titles) is lecturing especially in science and engineering fields. When in fact its only part of their job and only a very small part for professors who have a lot of research commitments and who are supervising a lot of students, in fact some professors/senior researchers don't lecture at all, their job is completely devoted to supervision, doing research, generating funding, writing proposals etc etc etc.

I have to supervise undergrad labs and correct the reports as part of my PhD, its is one of the conditions which I have to meet in order to continue receiving funding. I don't particularly like having to do it as it takes me away from my own work but its the same for every PhD student in the university.

Wompa1 · 09-01-2012 12:51PM

I went out with a PhD student who corrected exams. I'm not sure if she is representative or not, she did have guidelines on correcting but a lot of grading was based on her own expertise and knowledge in the field which was pretty poor, she was the type who picked a course which could only lead to a career in academics so it was either go on and do a PhD or your degree was a waste of time. She put more effort into being able to blag competence and working on her image to her colleagues and superiors, rather than having a strong hold on what was the correct way to do things.

Also when it came to just passing a student she made decisions based on personal opinion of the students character which to me seemed pretty crappy in a University. But then my opinion of third level in Ireland is pretty poor so take that for what it is. I'm in a position now in which I can influence hiring and would be skeptical of people who attended certain Universities in the country

IvyTheTerrible · 09-01-2012 12:56PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

I went out with a PhD student who corrected exams. I'm not sure if she is representative or not, she did have guidelines on correcting but a lot of grading was based on her own expertise and knowledge in the field which was pretty poor, she was the type who picked a course which could only lead to a career in academics so it was either go on and do a PhD or your degree was a waste of time. She put more effort into being able to blag competence and working on her image to her colleagues and superiors, rather than having a strong hold on what was the correct way to do things.

Also when it came to just passing a student she made decisions based on personal opinion of the students character which to me seemed pretty crappy in a University. But then my opinion of third level in Ireland is pretty poor so take that for what it is. I'm in a position now in which I can influence hiring and would be skeptical of people who attended certain Universities in the country

That's terrible but her poor marking was not because she was "only" a phd student. If she goes on to be a lecturer/prof, she will still be correcting an exam in the same manner.

In the majority of cases, phd students are perfectly capable of marking exams. Remember, to get onto a phd program, you usually have to have a high honours degree (1.1 or 2.1 final mark in your degree), you have a good level of knowledge for the exam you are correcting, and you have the marking guidelines.

Paracore · 09-01-2012 12:58PM

slum dog wrote: »

rich coming from someone who uses internet dating and is from donegal

Oh man call the burns unit cos you just got me good... real good. Well good for someone who barely scrapes a 40 anywho...

Wompa1 · 09-01-2012 01:03PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

That's terrible but her poor marking was not because she was "only" a phd student. If she goes on to be a lecturer/prof, she will still be correcting an exam in the same manner.

In the majority of cases, phd students are perfectly capable of marking exams. Remember, to get onto a phd program, you usually have to have a high honours degree (1.1 or 2.1 final mark in your degree), you have a good level of knowledge for the exam you are correcting, and you have the marking guidelines.

I get ya. But in fairness I have an honours degree but I couldn't go correcting exams for the subjects I learned. In college and University you don't get proper exposure to what you are learning. You are reliant on the experience of your superiors being passed onto you but when those people have never actually worked in their field outside the walls of the University I'd question how expert they actually are.

But again that's just from my own personal experience. Practical work experience is key to experience even when it's in a research area. If people got out of the comfort of the Universities they would learn a lot more and then the Universities and public sector may not be trailing behind the private sector so much. I say that and all the while the University researchers are constantly justified by government bodies using them for backing up their policies and crap...I'll stop because this is all my opinion and I've learned in the past that the majority of people in Ireland have completed third level education and have some sort of undying loyalty to their Universities and are unwilling to have them criticized as it's seen as a personal insult of their own intelligence.

IvyTheTerrible · 09-01-2012 01:05PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

I get ya. But in fairness I have an honours degree but I couldn't go correcting exams for the subjects I learned. In college and University you don't get proper exposure to what you are learning. You are reliant on the experience of your superiors being passed onto you but when those people have never actually worked in their field outside the walls of the University I'd question how expert they actually are.

But again that's just from my own personal experience. Practical work experience is key to experience even when it's in a research area. If people got out of the comfort of the Universities they would learn a lot more and then the Universities and public sector may not be trailing behind the private sector so much. I say that and all the while the University researchers are constantly justified by government bodies using them for backing up their policies and crap...I'll stop because this is all my opinion and I've learned in the past that the majority of people in Ireland have completed third level education and have some sort of undying loyalty to their Universities and are unwilling to have them criticized as it's seen as a personal insult of their own intelligence.

I understand what you mean...but the exams in uni are not testing you on practical knowledge of the field...it can be a self-fulfilling thing...

Wompa1 · 09-01-2012 01:19PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I understand what you mean...but the exams in uni are not testing you on practical knowledge of the field...it can be a self-fulfilling thing...

The exams should reflect what has been learned in the course. If what's being taught in the courses isn't practical then what use is it? I don't mean practical in the term used in actual Universities e.g. physically doing something. I mean it in the way that practical means useful and progressive as to enable graduates to be employable.

A big problem we have with third level in this country is we are not producing highly skilled graduates. Dan Rooney, the American ambassador to Ireland had stated this in an interview here and that's going to irk people because he's American but the reality is a lot of the positions available to graduates in this country are with American companies. I work in IT. We are struggling to fill positions here because the IT courses in third level aren't up to scratch with what's going on in Industry.

for example. When I was in college .NET languages were taking hold in the industry. A lot of companies were standardizing on C# , we were being taught VB6, Java, C++ (for all the techies, yes Java and C++ are still in use but with projects I've worked on there is a big push for new tools to be developed with C# for cost purposes)

I have friends who studied other courses and the consensus was the same for all. We all learned a lot more our first year in our jobs then we learned in 4 years of college.

Also if you ever want to troll the University forums talk about .NET programming and look at the replies from lemmings who have been taught by some lecturers who haven't worked in the industry in over 10 years if at all spouting about how .NET languages are useless because you are dependent on Microsoft .NET then......what do the majority of firms use as an OS?...who is teaching these students such foolish ideas. Sorry tangent and rant..

Also for software developers doing courses at the moment if you are not being taught Azure yet you should complain to your University or college. I know a lot still aren't teaching it and it's huge at the moment.

sbsquarepants · 09-01-2012 01:28PM

jokettle wrote: »

Also keep in mind that lecturers are often very overworked, so they use us students to alleviate their workload.

Sorry, can you repeat that?
I thought that you said lecturers were often very overworked!
I must be still drunk from the weekend or something.:D

slum dog · 09-01-2012 04:27PM

Paracore wrote: »

Oh man call the burns unit cos you just got me good... real good. Well good for someone who barely scrapes a 40 anywho...

your better off callen the samaritans mate if your that ugly looken

Bannasidhe · 09-01-2012 04:29PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Reading this scares me.
Is this really how 3rd level students write?

Yes

.

Turtwig · 09-01-2012 04:49PM

OP,

Do you really expect an A in the junior cert to be the equivalent as one in Leaving Cert? Just because you were banging 70s last semester doesn't mean you should automatically be banging 70s this semester. Improvement is expected semester on semester. For example in physics, an introductory Quantum Mechanics course doesn't expect the same standard of knowledge in the area for answers, assignments and lab reports as one for a second or third year Quantum Mechanics that follows a typical thorough undergrad QM course.

With regard to Phds correcting, the vast majority of them are more than skilled enough to do it. Yes, like everything in life they are exceptions to rules but that's just the way it is unfortunately. If you felt you have been marked harshly you always the option to appeal. That option is there for a reason.

Also, someone remarked that a research student should never be allowed to correct taught post graduate papers. Why? Some post graduate courses still have coursework that even a competent fourth year undegrad student in a discipline would be adequately experienced enough to correct it.

southsiderosie · 09-01-2012 05:00PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

The exams should reflect what has been learned in the course. If what's being taught in the courses isn't practical then what use is it? I don't mean practical in the term used in actual Universities e.g. physically doing something. I mean it in the way that practical means useful and progressive as to enable graduates to be employable.

A big problem we have with third level in this country is we are not producing highly skilled graduates. Dan Rooney, the American ambassador to Ireland had stated this in an interview here and that's going to irk people because he's American but the reality is a lot of the positions available to graduates in this country are with American companies. I work in IT. We are struggling to fill positions here because the IT courses in third level aren't up to scratch with what's going on in Industry.

One of the biggest complaints of U.S. employers is that people cannot write well. When I was in graduate school, I was a TA for a writing-intensive class, and most of my students were undergraduates in engineering/IT programs. These were very smart kids, but many of them had no idea how to read and assess various arguments, come up with an argument of their own, and then write a coherent 750 paper which clearly demonstrated that they had a grasp of the material. A lot of the students scoffed that this was not 'real' work, but the ability to think critically and write well is something that employers will always appreciate.

Unfortunately, these kinds of classes are also very labor intensive for universities. It is much easier to grade 100 multiple choice tests or even 100 problem sets than a stack of 100 papers. Research universities simply could not function without graduate TAs to do a lot of the grading - the core job of the faculty is to do research and publish, not to teach undergraduates (despite what the undergraduates might think!). Universities are ranked based on their research output, not on how much undergraduates like their experience, or how skilled the lecturers are. That is a fact of life in today's academic environment, and unfortunately Ireland doesn't have the extensive liberal arts college options - where faculty teaching and grading, small classes, and the undergraduate experience are central - that exist in the U.S. to balance out this dynamic.

RDM_83 again · 09-01-2012 05:32PM

I actually agree with the OP with on this (but not for his reasons), A PhD student in the 3rd/4th year will have a very great depth of experience but only in quite a narrow topic, using an example. PhD X is supervised by lecturer Y, X's research project is "Medieval patterns of settlement in Connemara" X will be very familiar with this and some associated areas.

However Y will be familiar with this (though probably not to the same depth as X), His/Her own specialist topic, and the topics of any other PhD students under his/her supervision which means that they'l have a greater knowledge of the literature etc of the wider field so when ever they set an essay titled "settlement in medieval Ireland" the lecturer is more likely to be aware of the use/misuse of the wider literature (for example if one student decided to focus his essay on the settlement patterns in cork).

Also I disagree with it because of the potential for favoritism is massive (not so much in marking lab reports as they are right or wrong but within the humanities and arts where there is more flexibility)

For FFS during my undergrad I once had my brother demonstrate one of my practical classes!

Jernal wrote: »

Also, someone remarked that a research student should never be allowed to correct taught post graduate papers. Why? Some post graduate courses still have coursework that even a competent fourth year undegrad student in a discipline would be adequately experienced enough to correct it.

Well for one taught and research Post-Grads are likely to have a decent amount of interaction with each other, following that logic you could get a 4th year undergrad to do the job. Also a taught post-grad costs you 6000 you'd want to get that money back in properly marked work

SeaFields · 09-01-2012 05:53PM

Jernal wrote: »

Also, someone remarked that a research student should never be allowed to correct taught post graduate papers. Why? Some post graduate courses still have coursework that even a competent fourth year undegrad student in a discipline would be adequately experienced enough to correct it.

I did. Taught postgraduate work is at a level of detail that would not be experienced at undergraduate level. You are, after all, studying something that may only b offered at 5 or 10 credit modular level at undergrad, but at a level in postgraduate study that allows several hours of lectures and seminars a week of the same subject.

Also in my experience, it was where you firstly get a real introduction to industry based lecturers at an in-depth level, something that may only occur for one or two lectures in the undergraduate module.

There would also need to be consideration for the research student. Even it was only a handful of essays that needed correcting, and he/she had the knowledge to correct them, it is an intensive workload to put on the person also taking yet more time from their research.

Perhaps your area (physics?) was different. I can only speak for my own experience.

what qualifies phd students to correct papers?

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