(UK) Stephen Lawrence murder - Dobson & Norris Guilty

Batsy · 04-01-2012 06:57PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

...and in the meantime, neo-nazi scumbags wander around helping old ladies across the road in between working for various charity organisations.

I don't think neo-nazis - if that's what you think Norris and Dobson are - should be jailed for a murder they didn't commit.

hooradiation · 04-01-2012 06:58PM

Batsy wrote: »

No, but almost all youth stabbings nowadays in London - and it was proba So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member

I can certainly see why you'd think that.
It's the lazy option for people who can't be arsed to think critically about things, but of course "other people think it" so, clearly, it must be true.
Right?

Batsy · 04-01-2012 07:00PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

No. No I can't.

Maybe you will when you switch on your telly, put it on the news, and see how many teenagers are murdered in London's streets each year.

Maybe you will see it even more when you see that a very high proportion - most - of those teenagers who are killed on London's streets each year are black and members of gangs.

So it's very reasonable to assume that Lawrence's murder was yet another gang-related one.

hooradiation · 04-01-2012 07:02PM

Batsy wrote: »

His friend was interviewed on TV last night saying that, at the time, the police asked him whether Lawrence was a part of a gang. He said that he thought it was not relevant in trying to bring Lawrence's killer to justice.

And I was thinking: "It WAS relevant in trying to bring his killer to justice. The police had every right to assume that Lawrence was in a gang and that he was murdered by a rival gang member. It is a common occurrence and therefore they had every right to believe that's what happened."

And, even though Lawrence's friend denied it, I believe the police should have looked more closely at whether or not Lawrence was part of a violent gang.

A simple "yes" would have done.
Now you've gone and shown exactly why you're not to be listened to.

You are convinced that Lawrence, because he's black, must be part of a "violent gang". Everything you're arguing is predicated on this baseless assumption.
Well done, you've exposed the wretched excuse of fallacy you pass off as reasoning. It's pathetic.

You'd probably be better off not breaking ranks with the Daily Mail, for once.

Batsy · 04-01-2012 07:02PM

hooradiation wrote: »

I can certainly see why you'd think that.
It's the lazy option for people who can't be arsed to think critically about things, but of course "other people think it" so, clearly, it must be true.
Right?

Nah. The lazy option is assuming that because a black teenager was murdered that his killer or killers HAD to be neo-nazi, racist, BNP-voting white men.

When, in actual fact, most murders of black teenagers on London's streets are committed by black rival gang members.

ejmaztec · 04-01-2012 07:04PM

Batsy wrote: »

I don't think neo-nazis - if that's what you think Norris and Dobson are - should be jailed for a murder they didn't commit.

They should because they did.

It seems that they liked carrying knives.

Kevin London, a black fellow pupil at Crown Woods, says Dobson underwent a Jekyll and Hyde transformation when he was with the brothers. And at 15, Kevin became one of their early targets.
He was playing football during the school lunch break when he was rushed by a gang including Dobson — who had once been friendly — and badly beaten up. The following year, 1992, Kevin was set upon by the mob again, in a manner that bore chilling similarities to the attack on Stephen a few months later.
Incensed that Kevin was dating a white girl, Neil Acourt, Dobson and their cronies unleashed a torrent of racist abuse after spotting the couple on the other side of the road.
‘He [Dobson] is going “n****r this” and “n****r that”, and I was going: “Gary, what’s wrong with you? I know you. You go my school.” ’
But his entreaties were ignored, and within seconds the gang were upon them. ‘Gary’s getting ready to punch me when I see this knife flash by,’ says Kevin. ‘I think it was Neil Acourt, but I can’t be sure. It was only because Katie [his girlfriend] pulled me backwards that it missed my arm.’
What happened afterwards has always been disputed. Kevin insists he reported the attack, but though the police took a statement, they failed to follow it up.
If they had, he says, Stephen might now be alive. But Scotland Yard claims the incident came to light only after Stephen’s murder

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081935/Stephen-Lawrence-murder-What-jury-wasnt-told-Gary-Dobson.html#ixzz1iVuHceaK

El Weirdo · 04-01-2012 07:04PM

Batsy wrote: »

So it's very reasonable to assume that Lawrence's murder was yet another gang-related one.

What evidence (apart from the fact that he was black) do you have for Stephen Lawrence being in a gang?

KINGVictor · 04-01-2012 07:07PM

Batsy wrote: »

I'm telling you my belief that it is likely he was killed by a rival gang member.

Millions of people around the world would have made racist comments just months after Lawrence was killed. So did all those people kill him, too?

Again I ask you, have you seen the footage? They not only made racist comments, they demonstrated how they would kill "blacks and Pakis" with knives. That is not just some off hand racist comment, that is what they believed in.

Now regarding your senseless defense of these men, can you explain to me how the prosecuting team were able to prove that Dobson and Norris had Lawrence's blood and hair on their clothing? In fact in Dobson's case there was a 1 in 2 billion chance that the blood wasn't his.

Stop been disingenuous by bringing up irrelevancies and more importantly I suggest you start reading more widely.

Batsy · 04-01-2012 07:08PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

They should because they did.

Well, I don't think they did.

It seems that they liked carrying knives.

Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

charlemont · 04-01-2012 07:08PM

Batsy wrote: »

His friend was interviewed on TV last night saying that, at the time, the police asked him whether Lawrence was a part of a gang. He said that he thought it was not relevant in trying to bring Lawrence's killer to justice.

And I was thinking: "It WAS relevant in trying to bring his killer to justice. The police had every right to assume that Lawrence was in a gang and that he was murdered by a rival gang member. It is a common occurrence and therefore they had every right to believe that's what happened."

And, even though Lawrence's friend denied it, I believe the police should have looked more closely at whether or not Lawrence was part of a violent gang.

Your talking through your ass. If he was in a gang it would have gotten out by now.

hooradiation · 04-01-2012 07:09PM

Batsy wrote: »

Nah. The lazy option is assuming that because a black teenager was murdered that his killer or killers HAD to be neo-nazi, racist, BNP-voting white men.

Well at least you can recognise faulty reasoning when you intentionally use it as to make a strawman.
Lets see if we can't hammer some more basic logic into you by the time you eventually slink away, shall we?

Batsy wrote: »

When, in actual fact, most murders of black teenagers on London's streets are committed by black rival gang members.

However, the problem, the single mistake you constantly make is then going
"most murders are by rival gang members" therefore means that THIS murder was committed by rival gang members.

This is why your entire reasoning is stupid.
It's a fallacy, it's moronic and no matter how many time you attempt to present it as reasonable or, heaven fucking forbid "common sense" it remains as such.

Maybe you should dazzle us with your forensics knowledge, seeing as you claim the evidence is 'flimsy' instead of trying to argue from your current shitheap of a position

ejmaztec · 04-01-2012 07:11PM

Batsy wrote: »

Well, I don't think they did.

Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

Well, I don't think that they were members of the local whittling club. The article proves that they had a history, and not just one of making racist comments.

Batsy · 04-01-2012 07:12PM

KINGVictor wrote: »

Again I ask you, have you seen the footage? They not only made racist comments, they demonstrated how they would kill "blacks and Pakis" with knives. That is not just some off hand racist comment, that is what they believed in.

That is still not proof that they killed Stephen Lawrence.

Now regarding your senseless defense of these men, can you explain to me how the prosecuting team were able to prove that Dobson and Norris had Lawrence's blood and hair on their clothing?

I've already explained that already.

All the evidence we are talking about is a bloodstain smaller than a full stop on the inside of a jacket collar and maybe 2 or 3 odd very short hairs or fibres.

However, the potential for cross-contamination was huge. Lawrence's and the suspects' clothing mingled in the same atmosphere and storage facilities. This is something that the defence mentioned in the trial and called it very shoddy that the suspects' clothing should have been stored right alongside Lawrence's clothing.

When Sion Jenkins was jailed in 1997 for murdering his 13-year-old foster daughter Billy-Jo the big thing that sealed his fate was the amount of her blood was was splattered on Sion's jacket. "Oh, well. That means he killed her!" we all thought.

WRONG! Eventually, Jenkins was released on appeal and got a shedload of compo. He was fully pardoned for the murder. It turned out that he had discovered Billy-Jo lying injured emitting the blood from her mouth as she exhaled, which went onto his shirt.

If he can eventually be pardoned for that on appeal I think it's right that Dobson and Norris appeal against a conviction based on even flimsier evidence.

And how come no forensic evidence whatsoever was found against other suspects in the gang?

Because no member of that gang murdered Lawrence (although we are told by the likes of the BBC and others that the other gang members took part in the killing, too).

Just for the record...

In 1995 (just 2 years after Lawrence's murder), the British Crime Survey estimated that 382,000 offences were racially motivated. Of these 238,000 were against white people.

Racially motivated incidents (Table 8.1)
8.2 The British Crime Survey (BCS) (Percy 1998) estimated that, in 1995 382,000 offences (2% of all incidents reported by the survey) were
considered by the victim to be racially motivated. Of these 143,000 were committed against ethnic minorities and 238,000 against white people.

Dudess · 04-01-2012 07:14PM

Well you WOULD be of the opinion that they shouldn't be convicted - simply because he was black. I'm absolutely certain that's why, going by your vile previous posts.

OPENROAD · 04-01-2012 07:14PM

Batsy wrote: »

Well, I don't think they did.

Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

Forensic evidence?

Guy:Incognito · 04-01-2012 07:17PM

Elliemental wrote: »

Over twenty years too late,.

Not quite, he was only killed coming up on 19 years ago. Minority report?

Good to see they finally got locked up. Dont know if its a good or bad thing it took this long. If they were caught and jailled straight away they'd probably be out now while still relatively young. By the time they get out now at least they will be older and hopefully less of a threat. Would have been easier on the family though I'd say.

BabeeB · 04-01-2012 07:19PM

Thank god justice came around and hit them in the face

bwatson · 04-01-2012 07:20PM

Dudess wrote: »

Well you WOULD be of the opinion that they shouldn't be convicted - simply because he was black. I'm absolutely certain that's why, going by your vile previous posts.

The average Irish person will be far more sympathetic towards black people because there are far fewer, far smaller black communities in the Republic at the moment. Generally, blacks are by far the most viciously racist section of British society, not just to whites, but mainly to whites.

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

El Weirdo · 04-01-2012 07:23PM

Batsy wrote: »

Because no member of that gang murdered Lawrence (although we are told by the likes of the BBC and others that the other gang members took part in the killing, too).

Just for the record...

In 1995 (just 2 years after Lawrence's murder), the British Crime Survey estimated that 382,000 offences were racially motivated. Of these 238,000 were against white people.

*cough*

ejmaztec · 04-01-2012 07:23PM

I expect the mad racist woman who made her ranting debut on Youtube also thinks they were innocent.

starviewadams · 04-01-2012 07:24PM

bwatson wrote: »

The average Irish person will be far more sympathetic towards black people because there are far fewer, far smaller black communities in the Republic at the moment. Generally, blacks are by far the most viciously racist section of British society, not just to whites, but mainly to whites.

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

Any sort of proof to back up those claims?

K-9 · 04-01-2012 07:24PM

Batsy wrote: »

No, but almost all youth stabbings nowadays in London - and it was probably the same in 1993 - are gang related, and almost all of the victims and perpetrators of those stabbings are black. So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member (just like what happened to that black teenager on Oxford Street on Boxing Day).

Also, evidence shows that black boys are more likely to get involved in gangs than white boys. The black community in Britain's big cities realises this and have set up several initiatives to combat it.

Also look at gun crime. In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of gun crime and 79% of the suspects were from the Afro-Caribbean community.

You don't judge cases based on generalities, you judge it on the evidence of each case. Its the famed justice system Britain is so proud of.

hooradiation · 04-01-2012 07:25PM

bwatson wrote: »

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

Yup, that's exactly it.
Thankfully we have brave crusaders like yourself to correct the misconceptions that don't exist.

Arianna_26 · 04-01-2012 07:26PM

bwatson wrote: »

The average Irish person will be far more sympathetic towards black people because there are far fewer, far smaller black communities in the Republic at the moment. Generally, blacks are by far the most viciously racist section of British society, not just to whites, but mainly to whites.

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

So what you are saying is that the only reason any Irish people have sympathy for an innocent man like Stephen Lawrence is because we don't have to deal with black communities here? Wow.

Guy:Incognito · 04-01-2012 07:29PM

Batsy wrote: »

And then (almost 20 years later) they find a couple of white men who fit the bill, take a couple of photos of them and make the men in the photos look as thuggish as possible, and then put every pressure on a jury to ensure that they are banged up.

They just picked these couple of guys at random last year and decided to stick them on trial did they?

Even if your right and it wasnt racially motivated and was one gang killing a member of another, is 15 years not acceptible for murder, no?

ItsAWindUp · 04-01-2012 07:31PM

Batsy wrote: »

Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

They carried knives so logic dictates that they were out to seriously injure or kill somebody. That, coupled with forensics and other evidence, in my opinion proves their guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

bwatson · 04-01-2012 07:31PM

starviewadams wrote: »

Any sort of proof to back up those claims?

Experience.

The experience of others, also.

BabeeB · 04-01-2012 07:33PM

id say in the next week or two?

ejmaztec · 04-01-2012 07:34PM

bwatson wrote: »

Experience.

The experience of others, also.

In every single community from Land's End to John o'Groats?

hooradiation · 04-01-2012 07:34PM

bwatson wrote: »

starviewadams wrote:

Any sort of proof to back up those claims?

None whatsoever.

Fixed that post for you there.
Because I'm nice like that

(UK) Stephen Lawrence murder - Dobson & Norris Guilty

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