Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

(UK) Stephen Lawrence murder - Dobson & Norris Guilty

  • 03-01-2012 08:20PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    This must be such a relief for Stephen Lawrence's parents after 19 years...
    Gary Dobson and David Norris have been found guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, the black teenager stabbed to death by a gang of white youths at a London bus stop in 1993.

    The pair have spent their entire adult lives denying any involvement in one of the most high-profile unsolved cases in British history. So who are they?

    To the British public, Gary Dobson and David Norris have come to be defined by the death of Stephen Lawrence. They were among five white youths from Eltham in south-east London arrested shortly after the 18-year-old was killed there.

    Dobson, who was 17 at the time and attending a college, lived with his parents and younger sister on the nearby Brook Estate. Norris, the one member of the close-knit group who wasn't based on or near the estate, lived with his mother in Chislehurst, another part of south-east London.

    He had met one of the group - Jamie Acourt - through a football team they played for aged 14, and was introduced to the others through him. He was 16 and had left school when Stephen died.

    The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry in the late 1990s, which looked into the teenager's death and the subsequent police investigation, cited evidence from locals that portrayed the group as aggressive youths who regularly intimidated people they came into contact with - often with knives and threats.

    Much of this intimidation was due to their connection to Norris's father, Clifford, a convicted drug smuggler who was on the run in 1993 but later served an eight-year prison term for drugs and firearms offences.

    "Police officers told us that they believed that the influence or fear of Clifford Norris infected the investigation of the murder, in that potential young witnesses or young people in possession of information held back because they knew of Clifford Norris' existence and close interest in his son's welfare," states the report from the inquiry, which was presided over by retired judge Sir William Macpherson.

    A BBC documentary broadcast in July 2006, called The Boys Who Killed Stephen Lawrence, contained the allegation that Clifford Norris bribed a detective involved in the investigation into Stephen's murder, although a subsequent investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission concluded that the claims were unfounded.

    At the time of Stephen's death, Eltham was an ethnically polarised area where racist tension bubbled under the surface of suburban life, occasionally coming to the fore in the form of verbal insults, graffiti or - at its most extreme - violence.

    "It should be recorded that racist crime and violence were not new to the district. Both Eltham and Thamesmead had bitter experience of such crime by 1993," the Macpherson report stresses, before citing examples of racially charged flashpoints.

    Their reputation as local aggressors meant Dobson, Norris and their friends were prime suspects after Stephen's death. Police surveillance of their homes began four days after the killing and the five were arrested, with two charged. But the Crown Prosecution Service felt there was insufficient evidence to prosecute, and the charges were dropped in 1993.

    A year after Stephen's death, secret surveillance footage filmed in Dobson's Eltham flat captured the men's hate-filled racist outlook on life. In the 1994 video, which was shown to the Old Bailey jury in the 2011 murder trial, Norris was heard to say: "I would go down Catford and places like that I am telling you now, with two sub-machine guns." Using extremely racist and sexually explicit language, he said he would take a black person, torture them, skin them alive and set them alight.

    "I would blow their two arms and legs off and say 'go on, you can swim home now'. They would be bobbing around like that."

    He also shared an anecdote about beating up a black man, thought to be in his 60s, in a park following an argument. The surveillance footage "showed violent racism at its worst," concluded Sir William Macpherson. His 1999 report refers to the five suspects as being "infected and invaded by gross and revolting racism".

    During the trial at the end of last year, Norris, now 35, told the court he was "ashamed" of his behaviour in the video. Dobson, 36, also said he was "disgusted and embarrassed" by the racist language he used in the video. Three years after Stephen's death, a private prosecution was brought by the Lawrence family, but the case collapsed and Dobson, Neil Acourt and Luke Knight were acquitted of murder. The case against Norris and Jamie Acourt collapsed before reaching court.

    Despite the acquittal and collapse, the group accused of killing the teenager struggled to free themselves from the cloak of suspicion. Perhaps the most famous of example of this was a Daily Mail front page in 1997 which openly flouted libel laws.

    Featuring images of the five suspects, the newspaper carried the headline "murderers", under which it stated: "The Mail accuses these men of killing. If we are wrong, let them sue us." Later all five went on television to deny any involvement in the murder. The vilification of the suspects in some quarters was sharply brought into focus in 1998 after they appeared at the Lawrence Inquiry. During an outpouring of public contempt, the men were jostled, spat at and targeted with bottles, prompting them to spit and throw punches in retaliation.

    At the 2011 Old Bailey trial, both Dobson and Norris admitted becoming angry men who had grown to resent the world after being spat at and verbally abused on a regular basis by members of the public who saw them as murderers. In 2010, Dobson began a five-year jail term for drug dealing after he admitted supplying a class B drug. Similarly, Norris, an unmarried father-of-five, has lived on the wrong side of the law.

    In 2002, he was jailed for a racist attack in which he threw a drink and shouted racial abuse at a black police officer. Two years later, just months after his release, he was sentenced to 13 months behind bars for a pub burglary and handling a stolen vehicle. The defence told the court in that case that Norris had been unable to find employment since being arrested in the Lawrence murder inquiry. Describing his client as "depressed" and "paranoid", Norris's barrister called the burglary an impulsive offence by a man "without any realistic means of particularly well remunerated work".

    Double jeopardy change

    In September 2010, 17 years after Stephen's death, Dobson and Norris were arrested and charged with murder, following the Court of Appeal's decision that fresh forensic evidence warranted a trial. The 2011 trial was the second occasion in which Dobson appeared at the Old Bailey in connection with the murder. In the past this could not have happened, because of the double jeopardy rule which prevented a suspect being tried a second time for a crime.

    But the law was changed in 2003 to allow the prosecution to apply to quash an acquittal if a court was satisfied that there was new and compelling evidence to be put before a jury. And, with the emergence of new forensic evidence that appeared to link them to the crime, they took to the stand in an attempt to disprove any connection to a killing that came to define their lives. This time they failed to convince the jury.

    Article

    ..... I'm glad justice has finally caught up with these two.
    Albiet late, better late than never.


«13456710

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 124 ✭✭Bryan4president


    Am I the only one that thought that it was Bryan Dobson and David Norris that were found guilty?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    I have been following this story for years, his case has had an effect further afield then Britain. it was the first time I ever heard the term "institutional racism" that term has being used as a stick to beat many a wayward establishment.

    Its one time when I have something good to say about the Daily Mail they really stuck their neck out on this and pursued the perps and put pressure of the British establishment. Also Channel 4 it shows you the good that can come from journalism.

    With a little luck the others crims who took part in the murder will also be brought to justice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭Superbus


    Am I the only one that thought that it was Bryan Dobson and David Norris that were found guilty?

    It was David Norris.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 924 ✭✭✭Elliemental


    Over twenty years too late, but it does go to show that the truth will out - eventually. Most of all, I hope that the bereaved family can finally find some sort of closure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    Am I the only one that thought that it was Bryan Dobson and David Norris that were found guilty?

    Nah, David Norris wrote a letter to the British authorities to try and get the charges dropped.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ImpossibleDuck


    Saw this on the ITV news earlier and really grabbed my attention having known nothing about it before. IIRC, there's an hour-long programme on about it tonight after the ITV news at 10 if anyone's interested :)

    I'm not making light of it in any way, but when I saw the two guys on the news (pictures from 1993 approx.) I couldn't help but be reminded of Soap and the gang in Lock Stock.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Must be an enormous relief for the family.

    But I would hate to think that some critics of London's police will use this as a stick with which to beat the Met; disregarding the fact that the murders and any racial concerns focusing on London's police are now almost two decades old.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Clear evidence multiculturalism has failed.

    White people should go back to Saxony, Normandy, Scandinavia, Hibernia etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    good enough for the two horrible hateful looking Bastard's!


    Even the dog's on the street knew they were guilty!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Even the dog's on the street knew they were guilty!
    The dogs in the street think licking their balls is an appropriate way to spend their time.

    I really don't think that's a level of intelligence we ought to allow inform our judiciary.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    later10 wrote: »
    But I would hate to think that some critics of London's police will use this as a stick with which to beat the Met; disregarding the fact that the murders and any racial concerns focusing on London's police are now almost two decades old.

    Wasn't there some accusation against a particular Met Inspector regarding this case, about 10yrs ago? Apparent deliberate mishandling of evidence ? Can't remember exactly, the guy had just retired from the Police at the time (around 2003)

    How did those guys carry that around on their conscience for so long ??

    Reminded me of the case of Helen Betty Osbourne in Canada in 1971.
    One of the gang who murdered her "Lee Colgan" went insane, became a chronic alco in the end, and confessed everything, thus securing a conviction of the killer 15 yrs later.

    It was well portrayed in the 1991 movie Conspiracy of Silence.

    Conspiracy of Silence pt 1


    Conspiracy of Silence pt 2


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Nice one. I remember seeing clips of that film on the news at the time. Hateful fuhkers. :-/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,687 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Good, now for the other racist feckers in the gang to be brought to justice


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Dotrel


    Am I the only one that thought that it was Bryan Dobson and David Norris that were found guilty?

    No. I've suspected it since 1993.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    I think I remember this case, although I wasn't living on this side of the world at the time. Was this the case where the accused were seen laughing and joking in sunglasses and causing fights with protestors? Two of them were brothers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    later10 wrote: »
    Must be an enormous relief for the family.

    But I would hate to think that some critics of London's police will use this as a stick with which to beat the Met; disregarding the fact that the murders and any racial concerns focusing on London's police are now almost two decades old.

    Indeed, it's not as if there is any evidence of the Met still being a bit racist after all.

    Oh no.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    I think I remember this case, although I wasn't living on this side of the world at the time. Was this the case where the accused were seen laughing and joking in sunglasses and causing fights with protestors? Two of them were brothers?

    Not sure about the brothers bit, but yeah that was the one.

    Here's a really good documentary made about the case in 1999.









  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    Yes, it was the case I was thinking of. I remember Stephen's picture in all the papers at home.

    Awful tragedy that was. That poor young man.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Its bizarre to think, that if they had done the decent thing, and confessed at the time, they would probably be out by now.
    Then again, one could also say, that if they hadn't murdered Stephen Lawrence in the first place, they wouldn't be in this situation.

    Not that I have a shed of sympathy for them mind.

    Let's just hope this leads to the conviction of the rest of the gang, for their part also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    I think I remember this case, although I wasn't living on this side of the world at the time. Was this the case where the accused were seen laughing and joking in sunglasses and causing fights with protestors? Two of them were brothers?

    Their response to this;
    The vilification of the suspects in some quarters was sharply brought into focus in 1998 after they appeared at the Lawrence Inquiry. During an outpouring of public contempt, the men were jostled, spat at and targeted with bottles, prompting them to spit and throw punches in retaliation.

    Well the Lawrence family have their pound of flesh, I hope they're happy and leave it be now.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭sunflower27


    Their response to this;



    Well the Lawrence family have their pound of flesh, I hope they're happy and leave it be now.

    Their pound of flesh? They lost their son in a brutal murder.

    They may have been spat at, but they weren't jumped on with men with knives and left for dead.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Their response to this;



    Well the Lawrence family have their pound of flesh, I hope they're happy and leave it be now.

    as his mother has said, how can she be happy? her son was murdered. She has got justice, but that hardly makes up for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭KINGVictor


    Their response to this;



    Well the Lawrence family have their pound of flesh, I hope they're happy and leave it be now.

    I don't understand your post. Who responded to what? They were spat at by members of the public who were understandably upset by the apparent injustice been carried out at the time.

    I think the Lawrence family have shown dignity, considering they had to wait for 18 years for the killers of their son to be brought to justice.

    Of course they will be happy that they have eventually got some form of closure but saying (in your own words) they have got their "pound of flesh" and should "leave it be now" is what I don't understand. Perharps, you can further explain what you meant...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,687 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Well the Lawrence family have their pound of flesh, I hope they're happy and leave it be now.

    No they have 2/5 of a pound of flesh. The other racist murderers need to be brought to justice


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,687 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    I think I remember this case, although I wasn't living on this side of the world at the time. Was this the case where the accused were seen laughing and joking in sunglasses and causing fights with protestors? Two of them were brothers?

    Here is the (in)famous Daily Mail front page from 1997

    article-2079782-0F54184000000578-25_634x835.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,298 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Indeed, it's not as if there is any evidence of the Met still being a bit racist after all.

    Oh no.
    I didn't say there is no racism in the London Met.

    I said that I understand that significant work has been done to improve the met's relations with non-white ethnic communities. And it would be a shame if their shortcomings in this case were used as a stick with which to un-do all of the work that has advanced these relations, as though the Met has not moved on from 1993 or the years immediately subsequent to the Lawrence investigation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    later10 wrote: »
    I didn't say there is no racism in the London Met.

    I said that I understand that significant work has been done to improve the met's relations with non-white ethnic communities. And it would be a shame if their shortcomings in this case were used as a stick with which to un-do all of the work that has advanced these relations, as though the Met has not moved on from 1993 or the years immediately subsequent to the Lawrence investigation.

    The only thing that is going to improve the Met's relations with the public is to stop making the same silly mistakes they make over and over again. They haven't changed how they work much since Operation Swamp, and Operation Trident reaped exactly the same crop unfortunately.

    With the ICC proving to be fairly inept and largely toothless a proper change is a long time coming I'm afraid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Their response to this;



    Well the Lawrence family have their pound of flesh, I hope they're happy and leave it be now.

    They wanted justice. I'm not seeing the problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Demonique


    So when are they going to be sentenced?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I'm pleased to see these two brutal thugs convicted. I hope the others involved in the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence are punshed also for their crime.


Advertisement
Advertisement