Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

Will I Amnt · 01-01-2012 08:31PM

manual_man wrote: »

I based saying he didn't kick him on the only footage I saw. I quickly changed and apologized when I saw the different angle. Evra was half way on his way down when Suarez kicked him, I believe it was on the shin, others believe it was on the knee, either way I believe there was absolutely no intention on Suarez' part to damage Evra's knee, and I think Evra knows this. He's a player that has constantly made a meal out of situations in his career. He is the a-typical boy who cried wolf

You claimed to have a friend knowledgable in law and you yourself tried to come across the same.I refer you to this post and in particular the first line.Anything you say from now on I'll be taking with a pinch of salt.

manual_man wrote: »

No other footage is needed to prove this, it is as clear as day from the clip. He stretched his leg across Evra, in an attempt to outmuscle him. There was no kicking of anyone's knee, anyone who insists there was is totally and utterly kidding themselves

eigrod · 01-01-2012 08:32PM

SantryRed wrote: »

I read the report earlier and Evra had a reason for not saying n*gger. I'll look for it now.

My recollection after reading the report last night was that he couldn't bring himself to saying that word. That's a bit bizarre given the seriousness of the allegation he was making.

mixednuts has very succinctly laid out the confusion around the word Evra says he heard above.

Yet all we see today is Suarez being unreliable ?

In my opinion, there are numerous inconsistencies coming from all sides and all witnesses.

manual_man · 01-01-2012 08:39PM

SoulTrader wrote: »

manual_man wrote: »

I based saying he didn't kick him on the only footage I saw. I quickly changed and apologized when I saw the different angle. Evra was half way on his way down when Suarez kicked him, I believe it was on the shin, others believe it was on the knee, either way I believe there was absolutely no intention on Suarez' part to damage Evra's knee, and I think Evra knows this. He's a player that has constantly made a meal out of situations in his career. He is the a-typical boy who cried wolf

Definition of atypical: Not representative of a type, group, or class

I see what you're trying to say but you have misunderstood the meaning of the word "atypical". You are basically trying to deflect attention from Suarez's actions and blame Evra. Par for the course now, unfortunately.

Some people may cite it as irrelevant, but i do think a person's past behaviour is helpful in assessing a person's character. Evra has regularly been involved in 'controversies' over the years, whether with Man U or playing for France, personally i think he's underhand, and it's my entitlement to have that opinion. Likewise people could question Suarez's character, with the biting incident, this case, and some might even argue the handball incident. Personally i wouldn't advocate either of them as role models for the sport, despite their obvious footballing talents. I think there's aspects of both their characters which are unsavoury, which makes it all the harder to digest what's gone on

Leiva · 01-01-2012 08:39PM

eigrod wrote: »

My recollection after reading the report last night was that he couldn't bring himself to saying that word. That's a bit bizarre given the seriousness of the allegation he was making.

mixednuts has very succinctly laid out the confusion around the word Evra says he heard above.

Yet all we see today is Suarez being unreliable ?

In my opinion, there are numerous inconsistencies coming from all sides and all witnesses.

It's a massiven inconsistency on UTD's side .

All six UTD verbal or written statements never use the word "Niggger"

All conversations in the evidence use the word "black"

That's bizarre .

Yet right up after the match giving his CANAL interview Evra was saying it was a "n" word .

Blatter · 01-01-2012 08:39PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Ahh Blatter as much as you would like to think that it's not !

I'm on my second read now of the evidence and it clearly states and quotes statements by Evra , Giggs and the Ref in which ;

a.)Evra walks up to the ref and says "he just called me black not Niggger black !

b.)Giggs asks Evra what's wrong: "he just called me black not Niggger black !

c.) Evans , Valencia and other UTD written statements never use the word Niggger. bizarre !

Yet you only conveniently paste Nanis statement which is probably the (IMO) honest of them all .

All can be read in the evidence .. Not my words theirs .

Suarez called Evra a Negro.

Evra initially thought this translated as 'nigg*r' when going into detail about the incident. But when complaining on the pitch, he thought telling the referee that he was being called black would suffice. That's what essentially being called a nigg*r is, it's being abused because you're black.

He was told it didn't mean 'nigg*r' and in fact it's direct translation meant 'black' or 'blackie'.

He accepted this, but that didn't change the fact he found the term ''negro'' racially offensive.

Here's the reasoning:

Originally posted by the FA Report

Mr Evra complained to the referee twice during the match about being called black. The first was when the referee blew the whistle to stop the corner being taken. In his witness statement, Mr Evra said that he said to the referee "ref, ref, he just called me a ****ing black". His oral evidence varied between, on the one hand, Mr Evra telling us that he used these words to the referee and, on the other hand, telling us that he said "he just called me again a ****ing black". The second occasion was when he was booked and told the referee again that he had been called black. He also complained to Mr Giggs, just after the booking, that he had been called black.

It seemed to us that Mr Evra's understanding of the Spanish word "negro" was influenced by his knowledge of Italian. In his interview with the FA on 20 October, Mr Evra said that he thought "nero" meant "black", whereas "negro" meant "nigg*r". This was what he thought from his knowledge of Italian, and he went away to check the position in Spanish. However, he did say in that same interview that it was still unacceptable to be told that you had been kicked because you were black. The expert witnesses told us that the Spanish word "negro" cannot simply be translated as "nigg*r".

In our judgment, nothing turns on the fact that Mr Evra may have thought that the word "negro" as used by Mr Suarez in the match translated as "nigg*r". Ultimately, it is a matter for us as a Commission to decide whether the words used were abusive or insulting and whether they included a reference to ethnic origin, colour or race.

Leiva · 01-01-2012 08:42PM

Blatter wrote: »

Suarez called Evra a Negro.

Evra initially thought this translated as 'nigg*r'.

He was told it didn't mean 'nigg*r' and in fact it's direct translation meant 'black' or 'blackie'.

He accepted this, but that didn't change the fact he found the term ''negro'' racially offensive.

Here's the reasoning:

Answer my question ...

Why does no UTD statement reference the word "Niggger " only "black"
when clearly Evra stated he called me the "n" word .

Then all of a sudden any statement realating to incidents between the 62nd and 65th minute get "changed" to wording using black .

And all other player statements the same ??

I am not disputing the meaning of the word Negrito I'm highlighting massive inconsistancies .

Fuhrer · 01-01-2012 08:43PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Yet right up after the match giving his CANAL interview Evra was saying it was a "n" word .

Never happened.

Blatter · 01-01-2012 08:51PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Answer my question ...

Why does no UTD statement reference the word "Niggger " only "black"
when clearly Evra stated he called me the "n" word .

Then all of a sudden any statement realating to incidents between the 62nd and 65th minute get "changed" to wording using black .

And all other player statements the same ??

I am not disputing the meaning of the word Negrito I'm highlighting massive inconsistancies .

It does! Ferguson went into the ref's office after the game and said that he was called a nigg*r! Also Nani says, as I've shown to you, that he heard Evra complain about the word nigg*r.

Tbh, mixednuts, as far as I can see(correct me if I'm wrong), Suarez's defense didn't even scrutinise the nigg*r mistranslation from Evra, what does that tell you?

Leiva · 01-01-2012 09:00PM

Blatter wrote: »

It does! Ferguson went into the ref's office after the game and said that he was called a nigg*r! Also Nani says, as I've shown to you, that he heard Evra complain about the word nigg*r.

Tbh, mixednuts, as far as I can see(correct me if I'm wrong), Suarez's defense didn't even scrutinise the nigg*r mistranslation from Evra, what does that tell you?

If I'm asked to give a written statement on a conversation or what I heard someone say at a certain time I'm sure the hell gonna make sure I get it right to the best of memory , word for word .

So on the match day Evra believes Suarez called him a Niggger correct ?
And tells CANAL+ this well after the game .

He is really upset during the game and one three occasions is asked whats wrong ?involving Giggs and Marinier.

In the dressing room four of his team mates hear how upset he is and the FA identify the four and ask for written statements of what they heard Evra say .

All statements either from the pitch or dressing room use the word "black" and never "Niggger "

Someones been schooled in my opinion , statements harmonised and facts changed .

SantryRed · 01-01-2012 09:01PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Someones been schooled in my opinion , statements harmonised and facts changed .

Yeah you're right! Comolli, Kuyt and Dalglish.

eigrod · 01-01-2012 09:02PM

Blatter wrote: »

It does! Ferguson went into the ref's office after the game and said that he was called a nigg*r! Also Nani says, as I've shown to you, that he heard Evra complain about the word nigg*r.

Which can only mean one of two things :

Either

a) In the frenzy after the game, before they went to the referee, someone (or more than one) on the Man Utd side jumped to the conclusion that the word used was "n*gger"

or, more seriously

b) someone (or more than one) on the Man Utd side threw that word in to make the allegation more serious and increase the likelihood of a sympathetic ear.

I wonder did Ferguson even know the conversation took place in Spanish when he went to the referee's room ?

Jesus Wept · 01-01-2012 09:10PM

Typical Germans!

RasTa wrote: »

Are Liverpool still appealing?

Very.

eigrod · 01-01-2012 09:12PM

The-Rigger wrote: »

Very.

Blatter · 01-01-2012 09:13PM

mixednuts wrote: »

If I'm asked to give a written statement on a conversation or what I heard someone say at a certain time I'm sure the hell gonna make sure I get it right to the best of memory , word for word .

So on the match day Evra believes Suarez called him a Niggger correct ?
And tells CANAL+ this well hours after .

He is really upset during the game and one three occasions is asked whats wrong ?involving Giggs and Marinier.

In the dressing room four of his team mates hear how upset he is and the FA identify the four and ask for written statements of what they heard Evra say .

Someones been schooled in my opinion , statements harmonised and facts changed .

No, you are falling down on this.

Evra always maintained that the word to come out of Suarez' mouth was Negro. He had originally thought it translated to nigg*r, he never said he heard Suarez say the word nigg*r.

All statements either from the pitch or dressing room use the word "black" and never "Niggger "

Again, that's not true. It's clear that Nani felt Evra thought the word negro translated as nigg*r and that he was being called black. At the same time, Evra told Nani the exact words that came out of Suarez' mouth at the time - negro.

The FA report deals with, and explains this clearly. It's not something you can attack Evra with.

Once again, I'll ask you, did Suarez' defense feel that they could use this to create doubt over Evra's word?

#15 · 01-01-2012 09:13PM

K-9 wrote: »

Comolli also says you would tend to be more definitive in something this specific, as a French speaker, but that was discarded as irrelevant!

Both Comolli and Hernandez had their opinions on language ignored as they are not authorities on French and Spanish respectively.

The commission disregarded Chicharito's assertion about negrito in the same way that they disregarded Comolli's assertion that a French speaker would not use a figure of speech on such a serious matter.

doc_17 wrote: »

I know he used that word. His story, whether you believe that or not, is that it wasn't intended as a racist remark.

The report explicitly states that it is not concerned with subjectivity (i.e. the intention), but with objectivity (i.e. whether he actually made reference to skin colour).

And even then, the report states that if subjectivity was a condition, then Suarez would still have been found guilty.

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

It's "Dalglish" ffs. The level of fckwittery on this thread is astounding at times.

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

They are easily swayed. Hold on i thought i was mister man?

SantryRed wrote: »

I see mister men is gone off again :rolleyes:

Mods asleep at the wheel for a while now. How in the hell has Mister Men's re-reg not been sorted out yet?
I guess all that tough talk last year was just to sort out The Muppet, and no one else.

mixednuts wrote: »

But again that doesn't tally with his CANEL interview ???as he said he called me the "n" word .

Weird hey ... And all can be read on page 27 section 90 all the way to page 36.

mixednuts wrote: »

Anybody ?

mixednuts wrote: »

It's a massiven inconsistency on UTD's side .

All six UTD verbal or written statements never use the word "Niggger"

All conversations in the evidence use the word "black"

That's bizarre .

Yet right up after the match giving his CANAL interview Evra was saying it was a "n" word .

Eh, what?

Canal+ interview:

Mr Evra's interview on Canal+
154. Mr Evra gave an interview to the French TV channel Canal+ after the game. We were
provided with a transcript of the item broadcast on Canal+ which includes an
introduction by the presenter followed by part of the interview with Mr Evra. The
transcript reads as follows:
"After the Manchester United match in Liverpool yesterday, Patrice Evra spoke
again on Luis Suarez' attitude. The Uruguayan striker allegedly made racial slurs
against him throughout the match. Commentary by Stephane Guy at the
microphone.
"Is this the first time that this has happened to you on a professional field?
First time that it has happened to me, first time that a player has said racist things to
me like that. I am really, I am really concerned because he has no need for that, he is
a good player and then this. He tried to make me lose it. It shows that it was really to
make me lose it, but at the start, well, we will see. It still hurts. If it's by the fans, I
won't say it's fine, because it's still a shame, but when it's a player who is playing the
same game as you, it's even harder to accept. Especially when I think that he has
played with teammates who were my colour. So, at the start, well I won't go into a
big debate about it, we are going to see the arbitrator, there will be an investigation,
there is the video. You can even see clearly on his lips what he told me at least ten
times. So I'm calm from that point of view."
Patrice Evra's allegations have indeed been taken very seriously by the English
Association and an investigation has certainly been launched."

01-01-2012 09:19PM

I seem to remember the interview with Evra saying something like "he knows what he said, I wont repeat it but it was an N word" or something.

As far as I'm aware negro is an N word so I don't see where this problem with Evra saying he called me an N word is coming from. There's some ridiculous mindsets in here and I really don't understand why some people are refusing to accept it when Kuyt and Comolli where both told by Suarez that he basically racially abused Evra. Why would they make those statements to the commission if not?

#15 · 01-01-2012 09:22PM

The-Rigger wrote: »

Typical Germans!

What has that got to do with this thread?

That was a shít comment by Ferguson, and it let himself and the club down.
It came across as sour grapes, even more so when the players involved weren't even German (Ribery, Van Bommel, iirc).

But hey, I guess what you are trying to do is to get some Utd fans to try and defend a bit of xenophobia and then pretend that it makes the recent behaviour of LFC seem ok.

I'd say all sensible Utd fans, and possibly even Ferguson himself, is embarrassed by that comment.

tommyhaas · 01-01-2012 09:26PM

Liam O wrote: »

I seem to remember the interview with Evra saying something like "he knows what he said, I wont repeat it but it was an N word" or something.

As far as I'm aware negro is an N word so I don't see where this problem with Evra saying he called me an N word is coming from. There's some ridiculous mindsets in here and I really don't understand why some people are refusing to accept it when Kuyt and Comolli where both told by Suarez that he basically racially abused Evra. Why would they make those statements to the commission if not?

Google ''The N word''. Its not negro that comes up. The implication's of saying the N word were obvious . Am I correct in assuming at this point Evra still believed it translated as this?

tommyhaas · 01-01-2012 09:28PM

The-Rigger wrote: »

Typical Germans!

Very.

You might have had a point with that video 2 days ago, but he's 70 now, and its a well know fact, and legally accepted that old people can be as racist as want :pac:

K-9 · 01-01-2012 09:29PM

#15 wrote: »

Both Comolli and Hernandez had their opinions on language ignored as they are not authorities on French and Spanish respectively.

Comolli is French born and played and worked in France for years. I think they discounted his opinion too conveniently on what Evra meant in the interview.

carlcon · 01-01-2012 09:31PM

mixednuts wrote: »

It's a massiven inconsistency on UTD's side .

All six UTD verbal or written statements never use the word "Niggger"

All conversations in the evidence use the word "black"

That's bizarre .

Yet right up after the match giving his CANAL interview Evra was saying it was a "n" word .

As I've already linked you to in the actual report (which you blatantly ignored because it didn't suit your point), it is specifically mentioned that the word used was "negro".

Nowhere in it does Evra claim he used the word "n*gger" - It very clearly states that Evra's immediate translation of what Suarez says was indeed that word, but he then accepted it didn't directly translate into that.

Again... and this is the bit you need to get; The word Suarez is accused of saying is "Negro", which translates into various racist meanings when said aggressively, or in an antagonistic way.

It's a massiven inconsistency on UTD's side .

All six UTD verbal or written statements never use the word "Niggger"

That, my friend, is the definition of consistency.

clubberlang12 · 01-01-2012 09:33PM

K-9 wrote: »

Comolli is French born and played and worked in France for years. I think they discounted his opinion too conveniently on what Evra meant in the interview.

Comoli accepted that it's a phrase that can also mean "a number of times". I think it was more of knit-picking by Comoli in saying he thought Evra would be more decisive in the circumstances. Yet Evra ,in general, in the interview was not decisive as he had not wanted the matter to be asked about. He was not decisive in what Suarez had actually said so why would he be anymore decisive in the number of times Suarez said it?

#15 · 01-01-2012 09:35PM

K-9 wrote: »

Comolli is French born and played and worked in France for years. I think they discounted his opinion too conveniently on what Evra meant in the interview.

And Hernandez is a native speaker of Spanish. It was convenient for Suarez that they ignored Chicharito's views too.

Neither Comolli or Chicharito are authorities on their native languages. If the commission had taken their views on language into consideration, it could have been worse for Suarez.

homerjay2005 · 01-01-2012 09:40PM

Blatter wrote: »

Suarez called Evra a Negro.

at this stage, you should just not bother. your trying to reason with people who just refuse to accept very clear evidence. your better off just saying nothing and leave the club self distruct in their own PR disaster. and sit back and laugh.

i cant even believe that bit above is still being debated.

Nalz · 01-01-2012 10:35PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Anybody ?

Its unreal. I posted 4 times asking what to and why Suarez changed his story 3 times and eventually Blatter replied.

Shocking stuff how "Anybody " else didn't until then!

cloptrop · 01-01-2012 10:44PM

Yep and the longer they drag this out the worse it looks for the club on a world level.
all one person has to do is weigh up the actual amount of black players in the team ................1
big football teams these days rely on selling shirts in asia and africa and america
i posted yesterday how espn reported the situation , how the fans are backing him and how the club is backing him make it worse
i cant see black players wanting to go play there if the club logic is <its ok to call you negro , sure your black arnt ye> <we mean it in a friendly way>
in all honestly apologise and get on with it , look how chelsea dealt with the terry situation , no backing no publicity just make sure he was interviewed with a black player whenever he was interviewed,
ok terry will get dragged back up when the court case happens but its forgotten about for now
liverpool just showed the world that they will stand up for their racist players<it doesnt matter if hes guilty or not he was found guilty>
the fans should be urging the club to get sense , id love to get a black liverpool supporters view on this <a real one not jimmy from kerry pretending to be jemal from nigeria>
its a P R disaster and old school kenny dalgleish doesnt seem to be realising that you cant call your black left back chalky anymore
the pure stupidity of liverpools handling of this should be the problem not whether durk kuyt heard what or evra accused a chelsea groundsman of racism<as far as i remember it was a row over them not being allowed warm down >, <ive heard evra was at a charity event for chelsea and zinedine zidane was there , they had a row and evra accused him of calling him black too , only for evras friend calmed him down and said this wasnt true would zidane have been charged> what right minded liverpool supporter is making these crazy lies up about a man who stood up for himself ,,,,,,jaysus negrito was never mentioned
all he did was stage a strike in the french team during the world cup , thats the only stain on his charachter really and he was honest in what he did there <whether he was right or wrong >
enjoy the transfer window

K-9 · 01-01-2012 10:50PM

When a thread has Homerjay as the arbitrator of reason...............

Nalz · 01-01-2012 11:01PM

K-9 wrote: »

When a thread has Homerjay as the arbitrator of reason...............

and posting this is going to make things better? This is like a playground full of children imo.

K-9 · 01-01-2012 11:03PM

Trilla wrote: »

and posting this is going to make things better? This is like a playground full of children imo.

Probably a bit too obvious alright.

#15 · 01-01-2012 11:05PM

Melion wrote: »

Without wanting to start a Liverpool - United debate.

Well, this has gone a bit wrong for the OP!

Racism - Mod Note on 1st Post - Read before posting.

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