Why are most hotel workers not Irish ?

gigino · 31-12-2011 02:50AM

mattjack wrote: »

Maybe its cause there's not lots of jobs..

but the amazing thing is so many people are still immigrating in to the country. And some people are obviously getting jobs. It will astonish you how many PPS numbers have been issued in the past few years.

fando · 31-12-2011 03:47AM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I am going to enlighten you all with the truth.
I worked for 10 years in Hotel Management so I feel I am in a position to comment on the above.
During the Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 many Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. They brought in a corrupt working practice of buying their way into jobs. I had a Latvian woman apply for a job in my hotel, she offered me 365 Euro (her first weeks wages) to buy her way into the job. When I refused, and asked her why she did that? She explained that in Latvia this was the normal way you got a job. You paid the boss for your job. Her first job when she came to Ireland was in a meat factory, she had paid the Manager her first weeks wages to get the job. The factory was full of Eastern Europeans who had done the same. This culture of corruption, buying your way into jobs spread throughout the hotel industry during the Celtic Tiger. What you have to realise is this; an Irish employee would not buy their way into a job, as it is corrupt. But many Eastern Europeans thought this was normal, and so they got employed as a result. The Latvian applicant I interviewed in the Hotel I managed explained that when she left the meat factory, she would sell her job for a weeks wages to another Latvian; so she would get her money back. This is the way it works in Ireland she explained.

So you are saying, it is a common thing, that Irish manager would accept 365 euro bribe and choose a foreigner over his fellow countryman in need of work? Wow. Just learnt something new about Ireland. No wonder you were under Brits yoke through the last millennium.

fando · 31-12-2011 03:55AM

Educated and proud Irish managers bow to 365 euro in a brown envelope. LOL

Senna · 31-12-2011 04:00AM

I have hired many foreign staff, not once did one of them offer a bribe. Old wife's tale, here say etc etc bollox.

Nodin · 31-12-2011 04:14AM

gigino wrote: »

lol "It taught you one thing":D:D:D
..............Take your tent or something.

Weren't you supposed to come back with figures relating to EU nationals employed in the hotel trade? You can get figures to back up your claim re minimum wage while you're there....

fando · 31-12-2011 04:16AM

@wmpdd3 you understand that you contradicting yourself thanking to the last senna's post and Johnny Foreigner's first one?

RATM · 31-12-2011 04:51AM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Because while employment abuses in construction like pension funds, health and safety and Gama were highlighted and adressed, the hotel sector was ignored by our so called leaders.

Because if you work in a hotel you might finish after the wedding and cleaning the ballroom at four am and you're told to be back for breakfast shift or don't bother coming back at all

European Working Time Directive and minimum rest periods? Hah, they don't exist.

Because wage rates were driven to the bottom. I spent five years in various positions and got to night porter earning the princely sum of twelve euro per hour. I was experienced and I think I was worth it. Management decided two hundred residents was too much for one person, I trained a lovely guy from Poland, my hours were suddenly slashed off the roster and he got my job on minimum wage.

Hotels are cute, they don't fire staff, they just cut your hours and give them to the new hire and force you to leave. You quit so you do not have a case.

But managers are also abused too, trainee hotel manager is awful job on low pay and the hours you work should be illegal.
And then managers do what they've learned and in turn bully the staff

You would be fired in an office for the way head chefs treat their staff but then some admire the Gordon Ramsey types. All that shouting is wasted energy and achieves nothing. You can be passionate and a leader without it

And finally because posters on this site seem to hate this country and its people.
ALL Irish people think they are too good for these jobs? :rolleyes: Well who was doing them before mass immigration.
And ALL Eastern Europeans are better workers? Not at all, some are great, some are pissheads, no nationality is better or worse for that.

Having worked as a barman in hotels & pubs for the best part of 10 years I couldn't agree with this more. I began in hotels at 18 and always showed up on time, did my job well and worked extremely hard. But you'd never get a single bit of thanks for it, the managers are programmed to make you feel 'lucky to have a job'. Suggestions of a pay rise after 2 years continuous service were met with derision.

Pubs are a bit more easy going but with the wrong manager they can be a nightmare to work in. What eventually made me leave the industry though was the downward pressure on wages. In 2001 just before the introduction of the euro I was on an hourly rate of £11.07, which is probably about €14 an hour. I lived well without being super rich but it meant I could afford my own place, have money for going out, enjoying life. I felt I was worth every penny of my wages, I was running a busy city center bar turning €3-4k most days.

But these days publicans have turned barmen into a minimum wage job to be done by foreigners & students. If I did that job now I'd be lucky to get €10 an hour. So basically I was better off working in pubs 10 years ago than I would be today, about 40% better off in salary terms. And that's not taking into account the wad of inflation we witnessed during the rip-off years, much of which still remains to this day.

Sir Oxman · 31-12-2011 05:01AM

freeze4real wrote: »

In fairness the Easter Europeans look way better than the Irish women and one can also say that they're very hard working.

I'm sick reading **** like this - no they're fcking not.

gigino · 31-12-2011 02:40PM

RATM wrote: »

But these days publicans have turned barmen into a minimum wage job to be done by foreigners & students.

Why do you not become a publican and pay double the going rate ?

And whats wrong with our minimum wage ? Its one of the highest in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Do you think barmen should be as poorly paid as public servants for example, who are on their reduced average salary of only 48k a year
www.cso.ie

gigino · 31-12-2011 02:43PM

gambiaman wrote: »

I'm sick reading **** like this - no they're fcking not.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but as regards their work ethic, check in to any hotel and if you find an Irish person cleaning the rooms in the morning you may as well buy a lotto ticket that day.

Toby Take a Bow · 31-12-2011 04:30PM

Nodin wrote: »

Weren't you supposed to come back with figures relating to EU nationals employed in the hotel trade? You can get figures to back up your claim re minimum wage while you're there....

Gigino's a master at ignoring numerous posts asking him/her to specify exactly where his 'figures' are coming from. He'll respond to the posts where he thinks s/he has a good point. Case in point is the two posts below yours which ignore your question.

Freddie59 · 31-12-2011 04:35PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

cos irish people in general wont get out of bed for less than 15euro an hour and want a job that is easy as possible.

foreigners who come here, dont have the luxury of a grand a month + on social welfare to fall back on either if they leave their jobs, so they stay there and work as hard as they can.

Bit of a generalisation there methinks. The way hard-working Irish people are portrayed these days is dismaying, to say the least. Regarding your second point, you really need to wake up and smell the coffee my friend.

Freddie59 · 31-12-2011 04:40PM

thee glitz wrote: »

I stayed at a hotel last week and I think only one of the staff I met
wasn't Irish. I guess it's because they decide to afford Irish staff.

Likewise, my wife and I stayed in Cork and Kerry in July, and Kerry again is November.

I'd say 60-70% of staff were Irish, with almost 100% of front of house staff being Irish.

The Cead Mile Failte was, it would appeaer, closely reviewed, examined, and redeployed.

mattjack · 31-12-2011 05:57PM

gigino wrote: »

but the amazing thing is so many people are still immigrating in to the country. And some people are obviously getting jobs. It will astonish you how many PPS numbers have been issued in the past few years.

The Personal Public Service number (PPS No.) is your unique reference number to help you to access benefits and information from public service agencies quicker and easier. This includes services such as Social Welfare, Revenue, Public Healthcare and Education.

Note
The PPS number in itself does not convey any rights to residency, employment or benefits in Ireland where other conditions apply .

I,m not so sure you understand what a PPS number is for ..

144 thousand PPS numbers issued in 2011 , 80,000 to Irish....65 000 issued to foreign nationals...did they all get work I wonder ?

Nodin · 31-12-2011 06:02PM

gigino wrote: »

...................

Do you think barmen should be as poorly paid as public servants for example, who are on their reduced average salary of only 48k a year
www.cso.ie

You can't leave them alone, can you jimmy gigino?

mikemac1 · 31-12-2011 06:11PM

If I came on this thread and posted all Nigerians or Travellers in Ireland were lazy, welfare cheats and too snobbish to take on a low paying job I'd be facing an infraction or ban

Yet there are plenty here posting the same about Irish people

saa · 31-12-2011 06:21PM

Yahew wrote: »

That my friend is a straw man argument. One you appear to be having with yourself.

Woah someone didn't get the sarcasm and exaggeration (and parodying of common misconceptions and well worn approaches to this type of discussion) there my friend.

saa · 31-12-2011 06:25PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I would not be so quick to call yourself scum.
But who am I to argue with you?
You have a low opinion of yourself, and a lower opinion of the Irish by the sounds of it.

I am Irish and that totally went over your head..

bnt · 31-12-2011 07:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

... they're still taking the jobs that (some of) the Irish won't do.

What does "won't do" mean, anyway? "Won't do" at all, or "won't do" under the extreme conditions already described in this thread? "Won't do" 40 hours a week at minimum wage, or "won't do" 60+ hours a week at 2/3 of minimum wage after kickbacks? "Won't do" the job in a professional, respectful working environment, or "won't do" the job under an insane workload and abusive managers?

That's the message I'm reading in this thread: working in the hotel business means accepting substandard conditions, because it's a competitive business, and if you don't like it they'll get someone else ... and so the ones doing the job are the ones accepting the substandard conditions. If requiring acceptable, legal pay and conditions makes me "too good for the job", that's fine by me. I know that's generalising, and I expect there are exceptions - no need to lecture me on that.

Oh, but being a good employer and running a hotel costs too much ... right? The increased costs would be passed on to customers, and so you'd lose business to other hotels that are cheaper, because price is all that customers care about, eh? The economic term for such a business model is "race to the bottom", and it sounds as if some hotels have already won that race.

I know I look at price when I book a hotel, and they're doing themselves no favours by some of their price policies - e.g. rates doubling overnight for no apparent reason. But as a customer, my constant wish to save costs does not mean that I need the hotel's employees to work under poor conditions for poor pay. For example, I've had good experiences with the Accor chain before (Novotel, Ibis, etc.): they're not the cheapest, but neither are they crazily expensive, and the staff I've seen there seemed to be happy and reasonably unstressed - even the housekeepers. I'll probably go back to them, and not to a hotel I stayed in before in which the staff at the front desk clearly wanted to be somewhere else.

31-12-2011 08:44PM

bnt wrote: »

What does "won't do" mean, anyway? "Won't do" at all, or "won't do" under the extreme conditions already described in this thread? "Won't do" 40 hours a week at minimum wage, or "won't do" 60+ hours a week at 2/3 of minimum wage after kickbacks? "Won't do" the job in a professional, respectful working environment, or "won't do" the job under an insane workload and abusive managers?

Won't work in slave like conditions is what I mean, as you have described, not as in being lazy as what I wrote may have come across. to some.

K-9 · 01-01-2012 01:29AM

Immigrants coming here for Social Welfare and also low paid jobs.

AH hypocrisy at its finest. No doubt 2012 will be no different. Happy New Year AH'ers.

gigino · 01-01-2012 12:38PM

mattjack wrote: »

I,m not so sure you understand what a PPS number is for ..

I know exactly what a PPS number is for.

mattjack wrote: »

144 thousand PPS numbers issued in 2011 , 80,000 to Irish....65 000 issued to foreign nationals...did they all get work I wonder ?

I doubbt very much if they ALL got work, human beings being human beings. Not all immigrants are willing to work hard etc. Just as there are industrious and hard working Irish and Irish people who are not. I have met a few immigrants ( its not too difficult to bump in to them in certain places ) and asked them is it difficult for them / people in their community / friends and relatives in Eastern Europe to get jobs here , and they say no, if you are willing to work hard you will get a job. Thats what they said, do'nt shoot the messenger ! Funny how so many Eastern Europeans can get work here when so many Irish people can not ? I suppose the minimum wage is more here than well qualified people get for working in some eastern European countries....

mattjack · 01-01-2012 01:11PM

gigino wrote: »

I know exactly what a PPS number is for.

I doubbt very much if they ALL got work, human beings being human beings. Not all immigrants are willing to work hard etc. Just as there are industrious and hard working Irish and Irish people who are not. I have met a few immigrants ( its not too difficult to bump in to them in certain places ) and asked them is it difficult for them / people in their community / friends and relatives in Eastern Europe to get jobs here , and they say no, if you are willing to work hard you will get a job. Thats what they said, do'nt shoot the messenger ! Funny how so many Eastern Europeans can get work here when so many Irish people can not ? I suppose the minimum wage is more here than well qualified people get for working in some eastern European countries....

PPS numbers are not issued solely for people to work.I took a look at PPS issues in 2008 and 2011 , particularly at one of the EE countries ..take a look a differance in issue numbers.
I honestly can't see where EE's are getting work , construction is dead in the water...Senna will possibly agree that hotel/hospitality are in no great shape either.
Tell me where all foreign nationals are getting jobs ?

gigino · 01-01-2012 01:22PM

mattjack wrote: »

PPS numbers are not issued solely for people to work.

precisely

mattjack wrote: »

Tell me where all foreign nationals are getting jobs ?

At the last meal I had out, I asked the waitress how long she was in Ireland, she said since last March. During the big freeze last winter, my next door neighbour had a pipe burst, and got a polish plumber to fix it for 25 euro. He said an Irish plumber would have been at least 50 euro. When I stayed in a large Irish hotel recently, most of the staff were foreign, and very good they were too. I know of couple of new businesses started by Eastern Europeans recently too, so some are presumably getting work there. Like many of the Irish who went abroad, they tend ( as far as I can see ) to generally work hard + look after each other.

When our CSO come back from their 10 days holidays you could ask them what all the immigrants who got PPS numbers are doing, how many are working etc ? I doubt if you'll get a reply;)

Nodin · 01-01-2012 01:28PM

gigino wrote: »

precisely

At the last meal I had out, I asked .................a reply;)

Yet more half arsed anecdotes.....

gigino · 01-01-2012 01:31PM

lol. Go in to a hotel or Polish shop or Latvian shop yourself and ask where are the immigrants getting jobs.:D

mattjack · 01-01-2012 01:32PM

gigino wrote: »

precisely

At the last meal I had out, I asked the waitress how long she was in Ireland, she said since last March. During the big freeze last winter, my next door neighbour had a pipe burst, and got a polish plumber to fix it for 25 euro. He said an Irish plumber would have been at least 50 euro. When I stayed in a large Irish hotel recently, most of the staff were foreign, and very good they were too. I know of couple of new businesses started by Eastern Europeans recently too, so some are presumably getting work there. Like many of the Irish who went abroad, they tend ( as far as I can see ) to generally work hard + look after each other.

When our CSO come back from their 10 days holidays you could ask them what all the immigrants who got PPS numbers are doing, how many are working etc ? I doubt if you'll get a reply;)

Another fairy story ? Are you honestly telling us that a breakdown plumber came out over the Christmas and charged 25 euro's ? If he's self employed after he accounts for insurance,his own costs,diesel etc..he made nothing or was it cash in the hand.I'm a tradesman myself and work for years on service and maintainence.

Nodin · 01-01-2012 01:39PM

gigino wrote: »

lol. Go in to a hotel or Polish shop or Latvian shop yourself and ask where are the immigrants getting jobs.:D

......allow me to clarify. The majority of threads that you participate in see you produce a host of anecdotes which back up your opinion, which is usually hostile to Irish people, culture and the Irish state. You're making it up as you go along.

gigino · 01-01-2012 01:41PM

mattjack wrote: »

Another fairy story ? Are you honestly telling us that a breakdown plumber came out over the Christmas and charged 25 euro's ?

No, he came out in early January when the thaw set it.;)

And fair play to him, he was friendly, courteous, came on time, got paid, and the job worked. An Irish tradesman would have a face that would stop a bus if he only got paid 25 euro. I remember once paying a grumpy Irish plumber 80 euro for F*** all. There is a big lesson to be learned there. Next time I need a plumber I'll know where to go, on my neighbours recommendation. Of course the Polish fellow will probably have increased his prices by then

Nodin · 01-01-2012 01:43PM

gigino wrote: »

No, he came out in early January when the thaw set it.;)

And fair play to him, he was friendly, courteous, came on time, got paid, and the job worked. An Irish tradesman would have a face that would stop a bus if he only got paid 25 euro. I remember once paying a grumpy Irish plumber 80 euro for F*** all. There is a big lesson to be learned there. Next time I need a plumber I'll know where to go, on my neighbours recommendation. Of course the Polish fellow will probably have increased his prices by then

O look, another fairy story.

Why are most hotel workers not Irish ?

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