Irish Indo supporting animal cruelty

joela · 29-12-2011 9:41pm

Discodog wrote: »

Calm & factual - the constant repeating of questions & demanding answers & the use of intelligent phrases like "Sigh". :rolleyes:

Oh & I have been on Hunts, seen the kills & video'd them. The last part was a bit tricky when surrounded by a load of heavies trying to block the camera !. Hence the video usually has to be shot from a distance.

It is not irrational to ask for answers to repeatedly ignored questions.... you are hardly one to speak of intelligent phrases yourself if that is the case?

LOL at the hunt heavies, yep so they are all evil bloodthirsty killers just like you are an ill-informed, ignornant, crusty, townie? Liking the generalisations are we?

I have been on many many hunts and been at the kill many times and not had time to video the instant the fox dies. How could you possibly be even quick enough to get to the kill to video it, more BS. The hunt heavies are probably the same people you baited, taunted, abused, spat at and tried to assault earlier in the day. Shame because there would be much more progress if the more moderate were representing you, perhaps then they may willingly allow videoing??

Discodog · 29-12-2011 9:51pm

joela wrote: »

Are you seriously questioning my knowledge of population ecology? Listen nature is the predator-prey interaction or in this case the hunt-prey interaction, a flucuation occurs in one it affects the other either positively or negatively. Nature often lets populations get out of control which is why you have epidemics or starvation events etc. The undernourished female will produce less offspring but she first has to become undernourish which may occur for a number of reasons. Hunting does not "free up more space" lol, it will reduce the numbers of the population which will allow the remaining numbers to have sufficient food. If the following year there is oversupply the various factors will then regulate the population again or it may occur in 5 year cycles or 10 year cycles but population ecology is definitely not the wonderful mother nature ideal you are trying to put forth. Have you a background in ecology, I mean actual ecology not your wishy washy pseudo science stuff?

Well I actually earned my living as a salaried Ecologist for 11 years so I don't indulge in pseudo science. I also worked with a consultative group on Foxhunting for several years. I have rescued Wildlife including hundreds of Foxes with one the UK's leading authority & wildlife rescues. I have rehabilitated foxes, released foxes, treated foxes, filmed foxes etc.

Freeing up more space may make you give a sarcastic "lol" (really adds to the discussion :rolleyes:) but foxes are territorial. Any given area will have a number of territories so killing a Fox does indeed free up space for another to move in. Starvation events normally occur with species that have a very high birthrate, not Foxes. A Vixen doesn't have to starve to produce less pups - she will reduce the numbers if she is out of condition because she knows that she will have to produce enough milk to feed her litter. The huge rabbit & rat population plus our bins means that Foxes will never starve. The vast majority are in good condition.

Discodog · 29-12-2011 10:00pm

joela wrote: »

LOL at the hunt heavies, yep so they are all evil bloodthirsty killers just like you are an ill-informed, ignornant, crusty, townie? Liking the generalisations are we?

I have been on many many hunts and been at the kill many times and not had time to video the instant the fox dies. How could you possibly be even quick enough to get to the kill to video it, more BS. The hunt heavies are probably the same people you baited, taunted, abused, spat at and tried to assault earlier in the day. Shame because there would be much more progress if the more moderate were representing you, perhaps then they may willingly allow videoing??

If you represent the manners of a typical hunter then it explains a lot :rolleyes:

I was actually trying to video with the permission of the Hunt & even that was near impossible. There was a huge PR machine in operation & the last thing they wanted were images of foxes being killed in the run up to a ban.

Do you normally carry a video camera when out hunting ?

I was acting as a researcher not a saboteur so your insults are ill founded. By the way I did see some unacceptable actions by saboteurs & about the same number by the Hunts.

joela · 29-12-2011 10:49pm

Discodog wrote: »

Well I actually earned my living as a salaried Ecologist for 11 years so I don't indulge in pseudo science. I also worked with a consultative group on Foxhunting for several years. I have rescued Wildlife including hundreds of Foxes with one the UK's leading authority & wildlife rescues. I have rehabilitated foxes, released foxes, treated foxes, filmed foxes etc.

Freeing up more space may make you give a sarcastic "lol" (really adds to the discussion :rolleyes:) but foxes are territorial. Any given area will have a number of territories so killing a Fox does indeed free up space for another to move in. Starvation events normally occur with species that have a very high birthrate, not Foxes. A Vixen doesn't have to starve to produce less pups - she will reduce the numbers if she is out of condition because she knows that she will have to produce enough milk to feed her litter. The huge rabbit & rat population plus our bins means that Foxes will never starve. The vast majority are in good condition.

As a salaried ecologist, really? I find that extremely hard to believe judging by your comments here. In what sense a salaried ecologist because I know of few conservation ecologists or consultant ecologist who will claim what you do.

I know foxes are territorial and I also know there are multiple territories in areas. Starvation events do occur with fox populations and I never claimed the female has to be starving to produce less pups but that a starvation event will result in the production of less pups for a variety of reasons. Urban foxes will never starve or are less likely to starve but rural foxes are still likely to suffer the effects of over population in terms of food resources. If there is no control food resources are certain to become under pressure and a number of natural events may occur including starvation and disease.

joela · 29-12-2011 10:53pm

Discodog wrote: »

If you represent the manners of a typical hunter then it explains a lot :rolleyes:

I was actually trying to video with the permission of the Hunt & even that was near impossible. There was a huge PR machine in operation & the last thing they wanted were images of foxes being killed in the run up to a ban.

Do you normally carry a video camera when out hunting ?

I was acting as a researcher not a saboteur so your insults are ill founded. By the way I did see some unacceptable actions by saboteurs & about the same number by the Hunts.

Aha so this was in the UK? You were there with the permission of the hunt for research purposes and they would't let you film a kill, sounds a little unbelievable to me.

I don't carry a video camera out hunting because I haven't hunted in about 10 years and I ask again how you could possibly be at the kill quickly enough to film it?

I wasn't insulting you I was talking about generalisations and you have used plenty of them on this thread. I have also told you repeatedly I am not a hunter and perhaps you should look to yourself before criticising my manners.

later12 · 30-12-2011 12:16am

MungBean wrote: »

Much tTheres no point in trying to explain anything to ya.

Oh no, please do go on.

I'm interested to see your evidence supporting the claim that hunts don't keep fox numbers down.

It should be simple enough to link to something.

MungBean wrote: »

A hunt is not hunting and doesnt keep the numbers down

Surely you wouldn't suggest such a thing without some reasonable evidence or anything at all to support it? Mung Bean?

later12 · 30-12-2011 12:20am

Discodog wrote: »

Do you know the science ?. Nature rarely lets a population get out of control. It is a continual ongoing process. An undernourished female will produce less offspring.

A desperate female will also venture further onto farmland and seek out chickens and fowl, even lambs, instead of her more natural prey.

MungBean · 30-12-2011 12:47am

later10 wrote: »

Oh no, please do go on.

I'm interested to see your evidence supporting the claim that hunts don't keep fox numbers down.

It should be simple enough to link to something.

Surely you wouldn't suggest such a thing without some reasonable evidence or anything at all to support it? Mung Bean?

You do realise that was in reply to your assertion that fox hunting was the most effective way of culling foxes right ? You know the claim you made and then later showed you didnt even know what the word meant ?

After two days and 30 pages of discussion your quoting half a sentence from the first 5-6 pages or whatever that was made after you claimed it was the best way of culling a population in the same post where you said "Thats when they catch a fox at all" to dismiss the cruelty aspect and this is your entire argument. Which you still have no evidence for, you still dont understand the meaning of the words and you still desperately cling on to that argument thinking you have the upper hand.

Your argument about culling concluded with you showing you didnt understand the word.

Your argument about it being needed for the horse industry was baseless as it has gained popularity in the UK as a result of the ban.

You used 12 year old statistics made by an enquiry which ended in the sport being banned to try to argue that it was a valid method of population control in the UK. Which ended with you not knowing what the word valid meant.

After being given answers and explanations by me and other posters you ignore them. Asking one poster if they checked the foxes passport to know its sex when he took the time to try and explain what culling was. You did what you have done with me over the last two days stick your fingers in your ears and act like a child refusing to accept anything that doesnt fit with your preconceptions. And now you have dredged my posts to find a half a sentence to try and hang me with because you have nothing left to argue.

Whether I have any evidence or not to back that one aspect of my argument up it doesnt matter, everything you have tried to argue you have failed with. You have no evidence for anything you have said and try to dismiss my argument because I disagree with you without evidence to prove you wrong on one small detail in the plethora of dead ends you've been down in the last two days.

I said it before but this time I really am sick of going in circles with you and listening to your shíte. Unfollowing the thread and I wont be posting here again.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:01am

joela wrote: »

As a salaried ecologist, really? I find that extremely hard to believe judging by your comments here. In what sense a salaried ecologist because I know of few conservation ecologists or consultant ecologist who will claim what you do.

I know foxes are territorial and I also know there are multiple territories in areas. Starvation events do occur with fox populations and I never claimed the female has to be starving to produce less pups but that a starvation event will result in the production of less pups for a variety of reasons. Urban foxes will never starve or are less likely to starve but rural foxes are still likely to suffer the effects of over population in terms of food resources. If there is no control food resources are certain to become under pressure and a number of natural events may occur including starvation and disease.

In the sense that I was paid by an organisation to represent them & carry out Ecological Research which has been subjected to peer revue. You claim that I am talking rubbish yet you keep modifying your comments to agree with me. If you know that Foxes are territorial then you would not view the comment of one Fox taking another's space as ridiculous.

I have never heard of rural foxes starving. A couple of years ago locally we suffered a huge decline in rabbits - so much so that I literally didn't see one for over a year. It didn't affect the Foxes here because their daily diet are Rats. As my neighbour feeds her ponies our Vixen hides behind the stable & waits knowing full well that Rats will appear to feed on the dropped horse feed. Now you may suggest that we could have a sudden decline in Rat populations but I think that pretty unlikely. The only "disease" that I encountered was mange which isn't a disease.

So I do not accept your suggestion that by hounding a Fox to death that you are saving it from a worse fate. By a mile the biggest killer of our foxes is the motor car - 3 of this year's 4 cubs.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:19am

joela wrote: »

Aha so this was in the UK? You were there with the permission of the hunt for research purposes and they would't let you film a kill, sounds a little unbelievable to me.

I don't carry a video camera out hunting because I haven't hunted in about 10 years and I ask again how you could possibly be at the kill quickly enough to film it?

I wasn't insulting you I was talking about generalisations and you have used plenty of them on this thread. I have also told you repeatedly I am not a hunter and perhaps you should look to yourself before criticising my manners.

Hunts in the UK are individually run. We were formally invited, in writing, but the local hunt did not welcome our presence. It's easy to film a kill when the Fox reaches the point of exhaustion & "goes to ground" not in a burrow but under cover like a fallen tree. On one occasion the hunt dragged the fox out & threw it to the hounds.

On another occasion I was called to rescue a fox from under a garden shed. I arrived to find the garden full of hounds & huntsmen with bamboo canes trying to poke the fox out. The owner of the house had to call the Police & they had to instruct the hunt to back off so that I could rescue the fox. The fox actually had a deep puncture wound from the bamboo - they had used the house owner's bean sticks !

If these Foxes are such a pest why did I have a long list of Farmers who were happy to have Foxes released on their land ? One rescue used to release at Heathrow because the airport welcomed foxes to keep down the real vermin. Despite all the rubbish about dangerous London foxes the LA's were happy to allow releases of urban foxes on Clapham Common !.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:19am

later10 wrote: »

A desperate female will also venture further onto farmland and seek out chickens and fowl, even lambs, instead of her more natural prey.

That's a very interesting admission that only a desperate Fox will take Chicken or Lambs

Eric Cartman · 30-12-2011 1:21am

Fox hunting is a great sport and i dont understand the opposition to it. Well done to them. Animals are here to serve humans and this is the way the fox serves

joela · 30-12-2011 1:21am

Ecological research for what organisation? Ecological research on foxes or of a larger study? I ask because your claims of ecological expertise seem dubious and I would like to know if you really have the credentials to claim you have the science.

It is simplistic and ridiculous to claim by hunting we are actually increasing the fox population which was what you claimed!

Again a nosedive in the food source is of course going to impact the fox population, the situation you describe sounds like an area which is a settlement as opposed to urban. However, it is accepted that food shortages have adverse effects on animal populations and while foxes aren't exactly choosy the population will at times naturally reach levels that are beyond carrying capacity. Some displacement into other territories may occur or other food sources be found but some casualties will result through starvation in such situations. Following on from this as previously discussed the numbers and sizes of litters can be reduced. Basically nature will provide controls but they are inevitably cruel also but maybe such cruelty is of a more acceptable kind to you? I have no problem either way but personally would prefer my neck snapped quickly to hunger or mange etc.

I really don't understand the point you are trying to make regarding territory to be honest.

Mange is the common name for a class of persistent contagious skin diseases caused by parasitic mites. You really don't think they get other diseases as well as mange?

I have never claimed I was saving a fox from a worse fate, my point is by commenting that we shouldn't interfere in nature is to imply nature is not naturally cruel. I I also believe foxes are killed more often by cars and think it also a much crueler fate than being killed by a hound, again injury and slow death are greater possibilities. You can submit roadkill records to biology.ie for their database, which is funded by NPWS, if you wish to make some contribution to recording annual numbers of foxes killed on roads. We have gone completely off-topic by now, you have a problem with fox-hunting, I don't and think it is individual choice.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:23am

By the way what happens to the Hounds that are too old or too slow to Hunt ? At what age do they stop hunting & assuming that they still have many good years ahead of them why don't we ever see them rehomed ?

carfiosaoorl · 30-12-2011 1:26am

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

We should follow Englands lead and ban fox hunting with hounds. It's really quite a barbaric 'sport'.

We should but we probably wont because banned over there means increased tourism here.

joela · 30-12-2011 1:28am

Discodog wrote: »

Hunts in the UK are individually run. We were formally invited, in writing, but the local hunt did not welcome our presence. It's easy to film a kill when the Fox reaches the point of exhaustion & "goes to ground" not in a burrow but under cover like a fallen tree. On one occasion the hunt dragged the fox out & threw it to the hounds.

On another occasion I was called to rescue a fox from under a garden shed. I arrived to find the garden full of hounds & huntsmen with bamboo canes trying to poke the fox out. The owner of the house had to call the Police & they had to instruct the hunt to back off so that I could rescue the fox. The fox actually had a deep puncture wound from the bamboo - they had used the house owner's bean sticks !

If these Foxes are such a pest why did I have a long list of Farmers who were happy to have Foxes released on their land ? One rescue used to release at Heathrow because the airport welcomed foxes to keep down the real vermin. Despite all the rubbish about dangerous London foxes the LA's were happy to allow releases of urban foxes on Clapham Common !.

They are here too, individual hunts have their own committees, masters etc.

If you were formally invited in writing by the hunt then why did they not welcome your presence?

If a fox goes to ground a good hunt will not torment it any more, it is a practice now frowned upon. Sure there are always rogue elements and I agree that that is unfair, he got away now leave him be.

There are loads of farmers who don't mind the fox or who don't like hunting I never said otherwise but many do like hunting. I'd imagine foxes are excellent in situations such as that as you describe in Heathrow. As for Urban foxes I thought that story last year was well dodgy and why wouldn't Clapham common be suitable for their release, they are wildlife and will adapt well to such habitat.

joela · 30-12-2011 1:30am

Discodog wrote: »

By the way what happens to the Hounds that are too old or too slow to Hunt ? At what age do they stop hunting & assuming that they still have many good years ahead of them why don't we ever see them rehomed ?

They get put down as far as I know, not sure at what age on average, they wouldn't make good pets at that stage having hunted but I would imagine if you were interested in taking one the hunt would be happy enough to give them?

later12 · 30-12-2011 1:32am

MungBean wrote: »

You do realise that was in reply to your assertion that fox hunting was the most effective way of culling foxes right ?

You disagree that fox hunting is the most effective way of culling foxes.

No problem there. It can be quite subjective.

But how do you get from that opinion to the bare assertion that:

MungBean wrote: »

A hunt is not hunting and doesnt keep the numbers down

The basis for that assertion should be simple enough to explain.

Why can you not provide this?

Are you standing by this statement or are you backing down from it?

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:33am

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

We should but we probably wont because banned over there means increased tourism here.

We won't because we have one of the worst animal welfare records in Europe. Even if it was banned there would be so many loopholes that it would be able to continue. After all we have a new anti puppy farming Bill that legalises puppy farms & a new Greyhound Bill that allows the industry to self regulate as before.

johngalway · 30-12-2011 1:34am

Discodog wrote: »

That's a very interesting admission that only a desperate Fox will take Chicken or Lambs

I don't see what's of interest about it seeing as it's completely incorrect.

later12 · 30-12-2011 1:35am

Discodog wrote: »

That's a very interesting admission that only a desperate Fox will take Chicken or Lambs

It depends, some chickens and lambs are easier prey than others.

In general, yes,a fox doesn't want to stray onto farmed and habitated lands unless it needs to, or is very hungry.

Which is partially why we want numbers controlled, we don't want them eradicated altogether.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:38am

joela wrote: »

They get put down as far as I know, not sure at what age on average, they wouldn't make good pets at that stage having hunted but I would imagine if you were interested in taking one the hunt would be happy enough to give them?

So the Hounds are also disposable victims of hunting & denied a decent retirement. Gosh the hunters are a compassionate lot. I have three rescued dogs including two ex coursing sighthounds. Foxhounds can be rehabilitated but it is very time consuming. The hunts should be made to look after their dogs for their natural life.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:41am

johngalway wrote: »

I don't see what's of interest about it seeing as it's completely incorrect.

The "interesting" bit is that it is more twaddle from someone who is claiming to know all about Foxes & in true style will now backpedal furiously

No wonder proper shooters don't want to be associated with this lot !

johngalway · 30-12-2011 1:42am

later10 wrote: »

In general, yes,a fox doesn't want to stray onto farmed and habitated lands unless it needs to, or is very hungry.

Sorry L10, but I have to disagree with you again.

Farmed lands, I'm a farmer, I also lamp foxes, I can tell you for sure there have been, are, and will continue to be foxes on all types of farmed lands that a fox has access to.

Habitated lands, uhm, urban foxes, foxes in towns and villages all across the country and as close as they like to rural houses too.

joela · 30-12-2011 1:43am

Discodog wrote: »

So the Hounds are also disposable victims of hunting & denied a decent retirement. Gosh the hunters are a compassionate lot. I have three rescued dogs including two ex coursing sighthounds. Foxhounds can be rehabilitated but it is very time consuming. The hunts should be made to look after their dogs for their natural life.

a decent retirement, they aren't human beings with pensionable retirements. Actually they dispatch the hounds humanely so I can't see why they are not compassionate. Cows, pigs, chickens are all put down at different points in life for different reasons. Farmers don't normally put non-producing livestock out to retire in fields after a long life of service either. At least if put down humanely they are not suffering like abused, stray, unwanted dogs of which there are far too many already.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:44am

later10 wrote: »

In general, yes,a fox doesn't want to stray onto farmed and habitated lands unless it needs to, or is very hungry.

Absolute codswallop ! A fox will go for the easiest low risk meal & who can blame him.

johngalway · 30-12-2011 1:45am

Discodog wrote: »

No wonder proper shooters don't want to be associated with this lot !

Regarding hunts, there are none local to me. I have no problem with them and wouldn't support any ban on them. The only thing I can think of is if a landowner doesn't want them on their land then the hunt should respect that irrespective of where the fox goes. Neither do I have a problem with hunting with hounds, terriers, snaring or trapping

I am quite pro those methods.

joela · 30-12-2011 1:45am

Discodog wrote: »

The "interesting" bit is that it is more twaddle from someone who is claiming to know all about Foxes & in true style will now backpedal furiously

No wonder proper shooters don't want to be associated with this lot !

I don't understand where Later10 claimed to know all about foxes?

Proper shooters??

Dyr · 30-12-2011 1:49am

joela wrote: »

a decent retirement, they aren't human beings with pensionable retirements. Actually they dispatch the hounds humanely so I can't see why they are not compassionate. Cows, pigs, chickens are all put down at different points in life for different reasons. Farmers don't normally put non-producing livestock out to retire in fields after a long life of service either. At least if put down humanely they are not suffering like abused, stray, unwanted dogs of which there are far too many already.

Its funny how you're trying to do PR for hunts when you just show them up as dirtbags. Breed dogs to kill other animals then give the dog a barrel when they're no use to them. If it happened in an urban area the owner would be up on charges of course lol

My sister used to live in an area the clare hunt used, shower of ignorant pr**ks who acted like they owned the whole area.

Discodog · 30-12-2011 1:52am

joela wrote: »

a decent retirement, they aren't human beings with pensionable retirements. Actually they dispatch the hounds humanely so I can't see why they are not compassionate. Cows, pigs, chickens are all put down at different points in life for different reasons. Farmers don't normally put non-producing livestock out to retire in fields after a long life of service either. At least if put down humanely they are not suffering like abused, stray, unwanted dogs of which there are far too many already.

The difference is that these dogs have been bred for a purpose & have served their owners. Livestock is killed for food, dog's arn't - well not here yet ! If a dog owner went to the Vet & said "my six year old dog isn't as quick as he was, can you kill him" the Vet would be horrified yet this is deemed acceptable for Foxhounds & Greyhounds.

It is yet another example of how the hunting fraternity see themselves as not needing to conform to the tenets of basic animal welfare that are accepted by the majority of people.

Irish Indo supporting animal cruelty

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