Why are most hotel workers not Irish ?

BraziliaNZ · 29-12-2011 03:11PM

Biggins wrote: »

Its NOT just because some Irish think a hotel job is beneath them!
Thats a stupid kop-out excuse used by other ignorant people.

I think there's an element of truth in that though. As other people have said here, they treat their staff horribly and the hours are a nightmare. I think hard up immigrants are more likely to do this and send a few quid home rather than Irish people who could be living at home or getting enough benefits to get by on.

mikemac1 · 29-12-2011 03:15PM

McDonalds are a good employer and treat you well

I'd rather work for McDonalds then ever work for an Irish hotel again

Didn't they say this about London in the fifties? The worst cowboy landlords and foremen and employers who screwed over Irish workers were usually Irish themselves. A bit offtopic
RTÉ History show podcast did a series on this, it's a good podcast

Biggins · 29-12-2011 03:20PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I think there's an element of truth in that though. As other people have said here, they treat their staff horribly and the hours are a nightmare. I think hard up immigrants are more likely to do this and send a few quid home rather than Irish people who could be living at home or getting enough benefits to get by on.

* There is truth that to SOME Irish people such work is beneath them.

* There is truth that Irish staff AND foreign workers (I have personally seen) are treated terrible.

* There is truth that many Irish people would be willing to work in a hotel - if they too could also afford to take employers scraping minimum legal wage payouts!

* There is truth that immigrants are oft times better able to take such low paid working positions - either by being stuck between 'a rock and a hard place' or having lower 'living costs' (short version).

What I don't like to personally see is that others allude (intentionally or not) that all or a lot of Irish people think hotel work is beneath them.
Its a fallacy - one often spouted forth by the uninformed or intentionally blind, deaf and stupid!

Dilynnio · 29-12-2011 03:23PM

Go to the Ritz Carlton.......that will answer your question.......enough said!

guitarzero · 29-12-2011 03:41PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Because I worked hard to be in a situation where I'm never stuck for work in my profession. I did my time in hotels and bars, loved it, but the money is not good enough for how I like to roll these days. And it's a pain in the ass. I don't do much these days and get a good salary. What's wrong with that?

The economy has changed bro, get with the times. Thousands of folks have been carrying around their degrees and diplomas for years and recognize that its a false promise to think that because you have a qualification you are somewhat above working in positions that are less qualified/well paid. You should take full responsibility for the path you've taken. It's just a false assumption and a false sense of entitlement. You say you did your time but thats not time. Thats just work. If we took this attitude 4000 years ago I dont think we'd have pulled it off. I'm not saying to drop your CV into McDonalds but there are a fair few of lower wage jobs going that preserve your dignity and that could alleviate taxing our people.

The whole thing of foreign folks populating the hotel/cafe/restaurant/retail area is, to me, still a bit contentious. I've worked in many of these places and Eastern European women arent that generically more beautiful than our own. I would question just how much of a difference male and female consumers could give a crap about whether Agnieska is behind the tills when you queuing for your boxers.
In cafe's and restaurants, again, I'd say there were maybe a couple of work engines who were none Irish but also Irish workers who were just as hard working. Often it was the younger ones or those who were in college all week, studying etc that would come in f*cked and sketching off.
Btw, it seems theres an endorsing of prejudice based on nationality. If this were a racial one against black folk I'm sure you wouldnt hear the end of it.

I lived with Polish folks and they said this type of bias would never happen in their own country, his tone was implying we are nitwits for doing such. He claimed they also strive for high positions in these departments in order to have a level of influence as to who gets hired.

woodoo · 29-12-2011 04:39PM

Reducing the dole over time would see more Irish people willing to work in hotels.

For the life of me i cant understand why the government allows someone on the dole 5, 10, 15 years collect the same dole money as someone unemployed less than a year.

People can adapt their lives to live of €188 per week + rent allowance etc. They wouldn't find it as easy if that figure dropped to €168 after a year and then €148 and €128 etc. They would find themselves thinking maybe i'd be better off working in that hotel job.

thee glitz · 29-12-2011 04:43PM

I stayed at a hotel last week and I think only one of the staff I met
wasn't Irish. I guess it's because they decide to afford Irish staff.

Johnny Foreigner · 29-12-2011 04:44PM

gigino wrote: »

My brother stayed in a few large hotels in Ireland recently and said even the receptionist, leisure centre staff, waiting staff etc were foreign. Excellent staff, but mostly eastern European. I know the HR person in another large Irish hotel ( well known brand name ) and she said they do not have any Irish people on housekeeping duties / making up rooms. She said they never found any Irish people who could stick the pace.

We Irish seem to work hard when we go abroad. The minimum wage is higher here than in most countries around the world. We have a lot of unemployment here ( half a million ? ) and a lot of emigration. Is it not puzzling we cannot compete here / be as good as foreign workers ?

I am going to enlighten you all with the truth.
I worked for 10 years in Hotel Management so I feel I am in a position to comment on the above.
During the Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 many Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. They brought in a corrupt working practice of buying their way into jobs. I had a Latvian woman apply for a job in my hotel, she offered me 365 Euro (her first weeks wages) to buy her way into the job. When I refused, and asked her why she did that? She explained that in Latvia this was the normal way you got a job. You paid the boss for your job. Her first job when she came to Ireland was in a meat factory, she had paid the Manager her first weeks wages to get the job. The factory was full of Eastern Europeans who had done the same. This culture of corruption, buying your way into jobs spread throughout the hotel industry during the Celtic Tiger. What you have to realise is this; an Irish employee would not buy their way into a job, as it is corrupt. But many Eastern Europeans thought this was normal, and so they got employed as a result. The Latvian applicant I interviewed in the Hotel I managed explained that when she left the meat factory, she would sell her job for a weeks wages to another Latvian; so she would get her money back. This is the way it works in Ireland she explained.

andala · 29-12-2011 05:01PM

I've a few friends working as housekeepers in a hotel in Ireland. There isn't a single Irish person working with them. Why? They said they've had a few people on trial periods but none of them lasted for more than 2 days as the job is hard and the Polish and Lithuanian stuff let the management exploit them beyond reason. None of the housekeepers has a full time contract, they're on flexi-time. They have to clean a room to a big chain hotel standards within 20 minutes and the supervisors make sure the tips the hotel guests leave are collected before the housekeepers get into the room. They earn the lowest hotel rate, about 9.27/h, and have done so for 4-5 years. Most of them have only basic English, if at all, and are perfectly aware they wouldn't be able to find a job elsewhere so they put up with it.

I can't say all hotels are the same, I just wrote what I heard from my friends

BraziliaNZ · 29-12-2011 05:06PM

guitarzero wrote: »

The economy has changed bro, get with the times. Thousands of folks have been carrying around their degrees and diplomas for years and recognize that its a false promise to think that because you have a qualification you are somewhat above working in positions that are less qualified/well paid. You should take full responsibility for the path you've taken. It's just a false assumption and a false sense of entitlement. You say you did your time but thats not time. Thats just work. If we took this attitude 4000 years ago I dont think we'd have pulled it off. I'm not saying to drop your CV into McDonalds but there are a fair few of lower wage jobs going that preserve your dignity and that could alleviate taxing our people.

Hi. I don't know why you're saying this to me, I haven't been out of work unless I was backpacking or something, since I was 15 or so!

pickarooney · 29-12-2011 05:07PM

woodoo wrote: »

For the life of me i cant understand why the government allows someone on the dole 5, 10, 15 years collect the same dole money as someone unemployed less than a year.

I completely agree. There should be some sort of length of service pay increases just like in any other sector.

prescar · 29-12-2011 05:09PM

freeze4real wrote: »

In fairness the Easter Europeans look way better than the Irish women and one can also say that they're very hard working.

And most Eastern European men have better facial features, keep in shape and are very hard workers.

angelfire9 · 29-12-2011 05:26PM

I got a job about 6 months ago as a Duty Manager in a hotel
Salary of €21,500 with meals on shift
As I was on the dole I jumped at it
These were my hours for the first 2 weeks:
Mon 7am-1pm, 5pm-1am (14 hours)
Tues 7am-3pm, 6pm-1am (15 hours)
Wed off
Thursday off
Fri 7-3/6-3 (17 hours)
Sat 3pm-finish (3am) (12 hours)
Sun 7am-3pm/7pm-1am (14 hours)
Mon 7-4 (9 hours)
Tues 7-3 (8 hours)
Wed off
Thurs off
Fri 3-finish (4am) 13 hours
Sat 12-3 6-finish (3am) 12 hours
Sun 7am-4pm (9 hours)

Total hours in the fortnight: 123
Gross wages for the fortnight €830
Rate per hour €6.75

I have 2 kids I had no life, it was work, sleep, work, sleep, days off washing uniforms for next week, then more work sleep, work, sleep

This is why I don't work in hotels anymore
At €9 an hour I would have earned a gross of €550 average per week but most hotels employ staff on a salary rather than an hourly rate

woodoo · 29-12-2011 05:46PM

angelfire9 wrote: »

I got a job about 6 months ago as a Duty Manager in a hotel
Salary of €21,500 with meals on shift
As I was on the dole I jumped at it
These were my hours for the first 2 weeks:
Mon 7am-1pm, 5pm-1am (14 hours)
Tues 7am-3pm, 6pm-1am (15 hours)
Wed off
Thursday off
Fri 7-3/6-3 (17 hours)
Sat 3pm-finish (3am) (12 hours)
Sun 7am-3pm/7pm-1am (14 hours)
Mon 7-4 (9 hours)
Tues 7-3 (8 hours)
Wed off
Thurs off
Fri 3-finish (4am) 13 hours
Sat 12-3 6-finish (3am) 12 hours
Sun 7am-4pm (9 hours)

Total hours in the fortnight: 123
Gross wages for the fortnight €830
Rate per hour €6.75

I have 2 kids I had no life, it was work, sleep, work, sleep, days off washing uniforms for next week, then more work sleep, work, sleep

This is why I don't work in hotels anymore
At €9 an hour I would have earned a gross of €550 average per week but most hotels employ staff on a salary rather than an hourly rate

Do we not have laws stating thew max hours someone has to work in a week? And a min wage?

Biggins · 29-12-2011 05:51PM

woodoo wrote: »

Do we not have laws stating thew max hours someone has to work in a week? And a min wage?

We do - but some employers put it to workers that they can like it or lump it!
(I have personally seen this happen myself)

gerryo777 · 29-12-2011 05:53PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

cos irish people in general wont get out of bed for less than 15euro an hour and want a job that is easy as possible.

foreigners who come here, dont have the luxury of a grand a month + on social welfare to fall back on either if they leave their jobs, so they stay there and work as hard as they can.

What are you talking about?

gerryo777 · 29-12-2011 06:00PM

woodoo wrote: »

Reducing the dole over time would see more Irish people willing to work in hotels.

For the life of me i cant understand why the government allows someone on the dole 5, 10, 15 years collect the same dole money as someone unemployed less than a year.

People can adapt their lives to live of €188 per week + rent allowance etc. They wouldn't find it as easy if that figure dropped to €168 after a year and then €148 and €128 etc. They would find themselves thinking maybe i'd be better off working in that hotel job.

Ah yes, the race to the bottom:rolleyes:

conor1979 · 29-12-2011 06:11PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I am going to enlighten you all with the truth.
I worked for 10 years in Hotel Management so I feel I am in a position to comment on the above.
During the Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 many Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. They brought in a corrupt working practice of buying their way into jobs. I had a Latvian woman apply for a job in my hotel, she offered me 365 Euro (her first weeks wages) to buy her way into the job. When I refused, and asked her why she did that? She explained that in Latvia this was the normal way you got a job. You paid the boss for your job. Her first job when she came to Ireland was in a meat factory, she had paid the Manager her first weeks wages to get the job. The factory was full of Eastern Europeans who had done the same. This culture of corruption, buying your way into jobs spread throughout the hotel industry during the Celtic Tiger. What you have to realise is this; an Irish employee would not buy their way into a job, as it is corrupt. But many Eastern Europeans thought this was normal, and so they got employed as a result. The Latvian applicant I interviewed in the Hotel I managed explained that when she left the meat factory, she would sell her job for a weeks wages to another Latvian; so she would get her money back. This is the way it works in Ireland she explained.

Just because one woman told you that was how it was doesn't exactly make it the truth!!

I have 13 years experience in bar/club/hotel management including a year in Prague and I have never heard of this practice going on anywhere.
This includes working with staff from many different eastern european countries as well as china and india.

29-12-2011 07:09PM

I think it's that the Eastern Europeans came over when things were good and were the only ones willing to work in such awful conditions and for such awful wages.

I worked in hotels every summer through college and on my J1 and it's the hardest, most demanding, least rewarding job imaginable. You have to work your arse off for little more than the minimum wage. There are no rights for hotel workers. When I was cleaning rooms, we regularly had to turn them over in around 20 minutes. We were discouraged from using gloves and not trained on how to deal with cleaning bodily fluids. The supervisors went round and collected all the tips first thing in the morning before we got to them. At least with that job, we had normal hours (8.30 to 5) and got (crap) accommodation so there was no commute. When I worked on front desk, we were regularly given 'back-to-back' shifts, which meant finishing at 11pm and being back in at 7am. I'd get home after midnight, exhausted, and had to be up again at 5.30am to get the train in. As someone else said, if you complain or cause any hassle, they just slash your hours down to one shift a week so you're forced to leave.

I'd still rather have a job than be on the dole, but I think that would be the last job I'd ever pick.

gigino · 29-12-2011 07:22PM

Bishop Strong Suit wrote: »

You have to work your arse off for little more than the minimum wage.

Most workers in other countries work their arses off. And most if not all countries around the world have minimum wages less than ours. So why are little or no Irish staff up to being efficient enough to be hired in housekeeping in Ireland ? The HR manager says they know now not to offer a job to an Irish person because they will not stick more than 2 days. No work ethic or stamina. And yet we have half a million unemployed, many if not most it seems who cannot be bothered working that hard ?

mikemac1 · 29-12-2011 07:23PM

woodoo wrote: »

Do we not have laws stating thew max hours someone has to work in a week? And a min wage?

We do.
And if you speak up they will not fire you

You will be working ten hours a week and they will call you full-time
And your hours go to the new hire

Nobody can survive on that so you quit and the hotel is rid of you

mikemac1 · 29-12-2011 07:29PM

gigino wrote: »

The HR manager says they know now not to offer a job to an Irish person because they will not stick more than 2 days. No work ethic or stamina.

Or maybe the Irish staff will speak up, know about NERA, rights commissioners and Working time directive, payment of wages act

As for HR
If we're going to throw out generalizations I can say HR is the home of failed middle managers.

Your main job is act like care about staff when you don't care at all

When a HR manager is nice to you and says my door is open if you want to chat about problems, then you run away. It's a trap

gigino · 29-12-2011 07:55PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Or maybe the Irish staff will speak up, know about NERA, rights commissioners and Working time directive, payment of wages act

Foreign staff still want to work. The Irish hotels will say the foreigners are generally much better workers. The HR person said if if paid an Irish person twice or 3 times the minimum wage, they would still not be as efficient as their foreign counterpart....clean the room as quick or as well.

woodoo · 29-12-2011 08:02PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

Ah yes, the race to the bottom:rolleyes:

What is the rolly eyes for. You think its OK that some waster on the dole 10 years should get used to the lifestyle and collect the same money as a newly unemployed person.

Nodin · 29-12-2011 08:06PM

gigino wrote: »

Foreign staff still want to work. The Irish hotels will say the foreigners are generally much better workers. The HR person said if if paid an Irish person twice or 3 times the minimum wage, they would still not be as efficient as their foreign counterpart....clean the room as quick or as well.

So jimmy, gigino you get to your half arsed stupid lazy generalisation of a 'point' at last.

29-12-2011 08:15PM

I work in a big enough hotel (200 rooms) during the summers and part-time when I've college. Started working there 3 years ago. When I first started working there I was one of the only Irish staff there. It was ridiculous.

Most of the management were Irish and a few others, but that was it. Now there are much more Irish staff. All of the bar staff are Irish (about 12 altogether). When I started there were 2 of us!

Many Irish people just won't do hotel work. Well, not a few years ago anyway. The hours are insane. And you have to have a certain type of personality really. But a job is a job!

Now that there are less jobs out there more Irish staff seem to by getting hotel jobs, naturally.

I actually love hotel work. Some days I've worked from 7am-3am with maybe an hour of a break, but I love moving around constantly. And you get to talk to people. I'm mostly in the bar or restaurant but I've done a bit of life-guarding too, which most people would love to do, but I find it dead boring.

And we don't get minimum wage. Neither do the "foreigners". Most of them are paid more than me because they've worked there for a lot longer!

Judgement Day · 29-12-2011 08:17PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Jesus who cares. Employers pick the people most suitable for a job. I've taken a couple of jobs abroad throughout the years, the UK, Oz etc are full of hundreds of thousands of Irish, I don't think we have a right to complain about a few fellow EU citizens working in our country. Sigh.

Absolute tosh and anyway since when was Sri Lanka part of the EU?

Killer Pigeon · 29-12-2011 08:19PM

Yahew wrote: »

In fact claims of xenophobia are the way middle class poseurs attack the working class, whilst maintaining their control over the non-tradable sector.

Could have come straight out of Mein Kampf.

woodoo · 29-12-2011 08:20PM

Lia_lia wrote: »

And we don't get minimum wage. Neither do the "foreigners". Most of them are paid more than me because they've worked there for a lot longer!

What system do the hotel have in place to pay those working there longer than you more. Do they negotiate better terms or is there a pay-scale in place for length of service?

goat2 · 29-12-2011 08:25PM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I am going to enlighten you all with the truth.
I worked for 10 years in Hotel Management so I feel I am in a position to comment on the above.
During the Celtic Tiger boom years 1994-2007 many Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. They brought in a corrupt working practice of buying their way into jobs. I had a Latvian woman apply for a job in my hotel, she offered me 365 Euro (her first weeks wages) to buy her way into the job. When I refused, and asked her why she did that? She explained that in Latvia this was the normal way you got a job. You paid the boss for your job. Her first job when she came to Ireland was in a meat factory, she had paid the Manager her first weeks wages to get the job. The factory was full of Eastern Europeans who had done the same. This culture of corruption, buying your way into jobs spread throughout the hotel industry during the Celtic Tiger. What you have to realise is this; an Irish employee would not buy their way into a job, as it is corrupt. But many Eastern Europeans thought this was normal, and so they got employed as a result. The Latvian applicant I interviewed in the Hotel I managed explained that when she left the meat factory, she would sell her job for a weeks wages to another Latvian; so she would get her money back. This is the way it works in Ireland she explained.

reading through this post,
i am apalled, this should be looked into,

Why are most hotel workers not Irish ?

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