Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Lucas' injury has nothing to do with Downing, Carroll and Henderson all performing fairly crap.

Perhaps. To expect every signing to a) hit the ground running in the first 6 months b) even be a success in any way shape or form is a highly naive expectation to have and will lead to you being disappointed alot of the time!

The fact is we are much closer to where we want to be both literally and ideally than we were this time last year before Kenny took over.

Downing, Henderson and Carroll will get better. With Steven Gerrard on the way back we will get better. It takes time to build a team. You can't integrate new players, management, owners into a successful operation in the space of 12 months.

I can't see why Hendo is being written off by so many. He's done well when he's played centrally. His passing is top notch, and he's got great confidence on the ball, and willing to try those cross-field and defense-splitting passes that we've been missing since Alonso. He's also got a great engine and has shown great ability to cover the full backs since he's played in his more central role. If we had a 21 year old of similar quality from the reserves (and we don't), there'd be a massive clamour for him to be in the team.

For Carroll, it's pretty clear that the next 6 months are make-or-break for his prospects as first team striker for us. Either he does the business and we stick with him, or he fluffs his lines and we buy a top class striker in the summer.

Downing, I think, will be a useful player, whose versatility will be a great asset, but who realistically isn't going to set the world alight. It's fairly clear now that the 18 million or so was too much.

Barring injuries Liverpool have a strong side

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Reina

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Johnson - Agger - Skrtel - Enrique
Lucas - Gerrard
Henderson - Suarez - Downing

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Carroll

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leaving Adam, Bellamy, Kuyt, Maxi, Carragher, Coates, Kelly, Spearing all on the sidelines

The issue has been that injuries to Lucas and Gerrard have stretched Liverpool in the centre of the park and have forced an unnnatural role on Charlie Adam. Reinforcements in this area and the other areas where Liverpool are light on quality i.e. wide forward/midfield players and another striking option would help change the outlook completely.

mormank wrote: »

Perhaps. To expect every signing to a) hit the ground running in the first 6 months b) even be a success in any way shape or form is a highly naive expectation to have and will lead to you being disappointed alot of the time!

The fact is we are much closer to where we want to be both literally and ideally than we were this time last year before Kenny took over.

Carroll is at the club almost 12 months and the summer signings almost 6 months. The line that was trotted out here (and elsewhere) as if it actually meant anything was that british based players settle faster than foreign buys and that only the Football manager types wanted the club to sign non British based players.

The players bought may well improve over time, and may well go on to be good players for the club, but the big money ones rightly or wrongly did come with a higher level of expectation than the lower priced transfers, and to date have been pretty poor value for money in terms of their on pitch performances. As already said that poor value for money thing may change over time, but in the here and now I think it is safe to say that they have not had the impact that the manager, the owners, the supporters, and I am sure the players themselves would have hoped for.


But while they have not had the impact many had hoped for, I think it has to be agreed that they have strengthened the squad, and as such, coupled with a better manager than 12 months ago, that has been reflected in our points taken per game since last January, and our league position based on the same amount of games last season.


I just feel that there are negatives that can be discused in terms of where the team/squad/club is right now, but that there are also a number of positives to be discussed in relation to it as well.

If the club sees it's strengths, and also acknowledges the weaknesses, then it can improve both for the greater good.

tommyhaas wrote: »

Torres was in a good run of form when he left, and was at the time uninjured. His attitude had been questionable, but this could easily have been put down to the instability surrounding the club. Despite having a poor season by his standards, his goals per game ratio was just under 50%, while Carroll's was just over 50%. Carroll was also injured at the time of the move, though I'm not sure what his injury record had been like

I certainly believe that the signing of Torres was far less that of a risk then the signing Carroll, and I think the relative enthusiasm of both sets of fans at the time demonstrated this

I also have wages and age on my side when it comes to both transfers, reducing the risk on carroll even more. Fan's enthusiasm about a player signing is a far from an accurate judge on player's potential success at a club.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When you invest that money you need a far better return otherwise we'll never be able to compete for league titles. We simply don't have the financial resources for a highest bought players not to be performing. I'm not saying we aren't closer, but if we spend the money in other ways we could be even closer.





Problem is we can't afford to give these guys years to develop. Our squad is to poor to allow us to carry £35m passengers. It's another way the money has been spent poorly. Also I never once "wrote them off". I said they were all performing crap, if you disagree and believe they are all playing well then fair enough.

Of course I would want the same. I would love for us to have signed players that brought us to the next level. Fact is, we have no european football to attract players and we don't have the financial muscle in terms of wages on offer to compete either. Mata chose chelsea, young and Jones chose Utd. Nasri chose city. Sanchez chose Barca. I could go on. Where are all these players that we can attract to our club at the moment that will be as awesome as you want? I'm sorry but they don't exist....oh no wait, the occasional gem like Suarez will come but to expect this to be the rule and not the exception is crazy.

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

I can't see why Hendo is being written off by so many. He's done well when he's played centrally. His passing is top notch, and he's got great confidence on the ball, and willing to try those cross-field and defense-splitting passes that we've been missing since Alonso. He's also got a great engine and has shown great ability to cover the full backs since he's played in his more central role. If we had a 21 year old of similar quality from the reserves (and we don't), there'd be a massive clamour for him to be in the team.

For Carroll, it's pretty clear that the next 6 months are make-or-break for his prospects as first team striker for us. Either he does the business and we stick with him, or he fluffs his lines and we buy a top class striker in the summer.

Downing, I think, will be a useful player, whose versatility will be a great asset, but who realistically isn't going to set the world alight. It's fairly clear now that the 18 million or so was too much.

Top notch passing? Done very well in the central role? Great engine and covers the full back? Tries the same type of passing as Alonso?

Henderson may well have some of those qualities in time, but he has not shown what you said on a consistent basis yet for the club.

His passing is nothing special yet. His tracking back and actual effectiveness in doing so is still very questionable. And trying the same type of passes as Alonso is worthless if you cannot actually pull off those passes with some regularity.

He may come good in time, but right now I don't see him as a first team level player, more squad cover who can be introduced during games to help build his confidence and understanding of the team.

I have seen him play 7 times whilst I was over at games this season as well as catching all the rest of our games on live tv/live streams/highlight shows, and he has been underwhelming for most of the games. I would not write him off as of yet, but he is very raw for his age imho and not regular first team material right now. I can think of a good number of midfielders in the 20-23 bracket that look far more assured/confident/skilled/talented than him at present so for me he needs to keep working hard in training and try to improve upon what he has got now ability/experience/game smarts wise.


Carroll I actually thought would click this season. My logic at the start of the season was that he had 7 months to get used to the club/area already at that point, and had a good rest in the summer as well as a full preseason. But bar a handful of games he has looked quite disinterested on the pitch, and looks like a guy treading water until he moves again rather than a striker who could actually lead our attack. His off pitch stuff has been discussed before (and I mean home sickness, inability to settle etc rather than anything else), but I think it is the main reason why he is not performing to a decent level. Personally I will be very surprised if he makes it beyond next summer in terms of his Liverpool FC career.


Downing I think has been quite unlucky in many ways. He has hit the wood work on three occassions, maybe four. He has created a fair number of chances and has seen many of his crosses get scuffed by other players in front of goal. As a result he looks quite bad as to date he has zero goals and zero assists, two stats that do tell some of the story of how a winger is doing. Like Henderson and Carroll I think he was overpriced compared to his ability, but like those two players that is not his fault and any criticism in terms of cost has to be aimed at the manager and not the players.

I think the squad is stronger with those three (and the other signings of course) onboard, and that they do give more options/cover, however I do believe that now that the squad is stronger the manager/owners have to try and put any outside comments on what was spent so far to one side and look at trying to get players that are a steop up on what we have right now and make the players bought in the summer the cover/competition for the new first team quality players.

I know lack of CL etc is a barrier, but unless we start trying to bring in first team players that are a big step up on what is in their positions right now, we are just spending huge money to consolidate from here in rather than huge money to move forward year on year.

For me fighting for (and maybe getting) a CL slot is what the money spent last January and last Summer got us. We now, imho of course, have to start thinking about what kind of money and players are needed to push us up a notch again for the 2012/13 season.

mormank wrote: »

I do believe that another reason for choosing young british players is that they are more likely to stick around once/if they become world class and not just bugger of to Real or Barca or wherever. A realistic concern imo.

Like I already said to chucky, I honestly don't believe we could have done much better in the transfer market than we have done in the past two windows due to our lack of champion's league football.

I think that without some level of success that regardless of where we buy a player from there is a big risk of them being snapped up by a club that has success.

British players may not attract the attention from the Barcas or Reals (despite the British media constantly going on abouyt all the "world class" British talent coming through), but City, United, Chelsea would all be well placed to snap up good young british talent if we were unable to give those players silverware.

Some of the foreign potential purchases may dream of playing for Barca etc., but I am sure that plenty of the young british talent dreams of playing for British clubs that were winning silverware and/or paying massive wages when they were growing up, so for me british talent is just as big a risk in terms of jumping ship to another club for as long other clubs as in the mix for silverware more than Liverpool.

Kess73 wrote: »

I think that without some level of success that regardless of where we buy a player from there is a big risk of them being snapped up by a club that has success.

British players may not attract the attention from the Barcas or Reals (despite the British media constantly going on abouyt all the "world class" British talent coming through), but City, United, Chelsea would all be well placed to snap up good young british talent if we were unable to give those players silverware.

Some of the foreign potential purchases may dream of playing for Barca etc., but I am sure that plenty of the young british talent dreams of playing for British clubs that were winning silverware and/or paying massive wages when they were growing up, so for me british talent is just as big a risk in terms of jumping ship to another club for as long other clubs as in the mix for silverware more than Liverpool.

You could be right but it was never enough to move Carra or stevie. Granted they are playing for their boyhood clubs which obviously is more of a factor but we don't really have any other examples of English players we got at a young age and went on to become world class in their positions to draw upon.

mormank wrote: »

You could be right but it was never enough to move Carra or stevie. Granted they are playing for their boyhood clubs which obviously is more of a factor but we don't really have any other examples of English players we got at a young age and went on to become world class in their positions to draw upon.

Michael Owen was a top class player in his position. So was McManaman. Granted the both went to Spain, but they are examples of British players that we had from a young age that went to where they thought the grass was greener. I just think that a large % of top players regardless of nationality will be tempted if a club that has more regular sucess shows interest.