Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

Yakult · 27-12-2011 06:38PM

Yesterday wasn't so bad, yeah we drew Blackburn in a game we should have maybe won, a crappy own goal cost us 2 points. But then again, Chelsea, Man City and Arsenal drew their games too, which is good for us given the result.
4th is still within our grasp. We just badly need to convert some of our countless chances we get every game and all will be rosie at LFC.

With Gerrard coming back, I would like to see Adam put to the bench. He just lacks consistency. When he is in form, he's good but when that form drops he might as well be kicking air. He would be a great player used in rotation but I don't think he should be a starter esp with Gerrard on the heal.

DM

Henderson----Gerrard----
Downing

Bellamy

Carroll

mormank · 27-12-2011 06:57PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

agree with that good post, look at city this time last year, mancini had been in the job roughly a year and yet after he spent £150m on boateng, yaya toure, kolarov, balotelli, silva and milner

pl: 18 w:9 D:5 L:4 F:25 A:15 Pts: 32

as opposed to liverpool as of right now

pl: 18 w:8 D:7 L:3 F:21 A:14 Pts: 31

Oh and I forgot to mention the monies earned from the sales of Bent and Gabby won't even go towards more transfers, it's already been included in the original 100mill you've been given. People need to reassess their expectations or they will simply never be happy. The 70's and 80's are over and some people need to realise that I'm afraid.

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 07:11PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Newcastle played our cheque book. It really has nothing to do with Chelsea. Do people really think if we said that we wouldn't pay £35m for Carroll Chelsea would have said "oh well then we won't buy Torres". Of course not. The owners peddled the £15m+ carroll line so they hoped wouldn't look like complete mugs when trying to negoiate transfers down the line and so us as fans wouldn't think they were mental and think badly of them.

I have issues with Carrol, Kenny, comili and the owners over the whole situation. A mnager shouldn't be changed because of one terrible buy but I do feel that final say over transfers should possibly be changed or else add in a 3rd opinion.

I disagree completely.

Leiva · 27-12-2011 07:32PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I disagree completely.

Your one of the better posters one this and other forums , but I can't see how you can defend a price tag of £35million for a player with little or no EPL or senior experience , be it Liverpool or Chelsea dealing directly with NUFC with agreeing the final amount / fee.

For the record I don't believe the story about how it was out of LFC hands as they just wanted Carroll + £15mil

mike65 · 27-12-2011 07:33PM

All we know is a shock result in Turnip country.

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 07:57PM

mixednuts wrote: »

Your one of the better posters one this and other forums , but I can't see how you can defend a price tag of £35million for a player with little or no EPL or senior experience , be it Liverpool or Chelsea dealing directly with NUFC with agreeing the final amount / fee.

For the record I don't believe the story about how it was out of LFC hands as they just wanted Carroll + £15mil

Its not about the price tag, have already said it could prove to define Kenny as manager this time around. Its about how the owners conducted the business. People need to separate the two.

There is an overwhelming sense of naivety i get from folk who hold this opinion that had we kept the money for 5 months, all other clubs would have just forgotten we had a 50 mil sized hole in our pockets. We would have been held to ransom regardless. We spent the Torres money and im fairly sure people think we were still held to ransom this summer.

The business decision made absolute sense, the only, and i repeat only, issue here is whether Kenny made the bad decision on who to buy. So far, it looks like he has, at the same time, folk really should take a step back and look at what the club is trying to do. They went on LFC.TV and told us the plan was a 5 year one.

Now, Henry has said 4th is where we need to be at. As frustrating as it is, if Adam had taken his pen and found the back row of the kop with his clearance we would be 4th right now, even with a misfiring attack and no Gerrard.

Its disappointing not to be there (4th) today, do people think anyone doesnt feel that way?, inc the manager and players?, from what i saw they felt the same as us after the last 2 games. Lets see what happens in Jan and take it from there, seasons get very long if your opinion kneejerks from week to week.

th3 s1aught3r · 27-12-2011 08:05PM

I think we are actually playing well at the moment. Compared to some of the stuff we played under Rafa and Hodgson, its actually enjoyable to watch us playing now. we are attacking more and creating more chances
Obviously the problem is scoring goals, so perhaps we are just a decent striker away from winning all these matches

ShamoBuc · 27-12-2011 08:15PM

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

I think we are actually playing well at the moment. Compared to some of the stuff we played under Rafa and Hodgson, its actually enjoyable to watch us playing now. we are attacking more and creating more chances
Obviously the problem is scoring goals, so perhaps we are just a decent striker away from winning all these matches

Very true, but, how many goals have the rest of the team scored? No where near what is needed - Downing, Adam, Henderson, Kuyt etc are not exactly adding to the goals scored column. We need the team to be scoring goals - not just the strikers. There is a distinct lack of spread in the goals we score. Obviously we look to our strike force for goals but the rest of the team could be banging in a few aswell, that wouldn't exactly hurt. With Stevie back, he should certainly help in that regard and assist others aswell.

kingshankly · 27-12-2011 08:17PM

This side isn't too far away to be fair kenny deserves plenty of time (and I am certainly no kenny fan and was opposed to him getting the job) if we go down that road of changing managers after every blip we will become a laughing stock.
Our club is renowned for give managers time and respect and I would love to see that upheld (unless pep wants the job)

Phoenix Park · 27-12-2011 08:31PM

kingshankly wrote: »

This side isn't too far away to be fair kenny deserves plenty of time (and I am certainly no kenny fan and was opposed to him getting the job) if we go down that road of changing managers after every blip we will become a laughing stock.
Our club is renowned for give managers time and respect and I would love to see that upheld (unless pep wants the job)

Pep without la masia churning them out though... Would be interesting to see him manage elsewhere without this golden generation and la masia conveyer belt in place. Surely nobody is seriously considering a new manager for us. New striking options, DM cover for Lucas... but anyone wanting Kenny out at this stage in going way overboard.

noodler · 27-12-2011 08:41PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Its not about the price tag, have already said it could prove to define Kenny as manager this time around. Its about how the owners conducted the business. People need to separate the two.

There is an overwhelming sense of naivety i get from folk who hold this opinion that had we kept the money for 5 months, all other clubs would have just forgotten we had a 50 mil sized hole in our pockets. We would have been held to ransom regardless. We spent the Torres money and im fairly sure people think we were still held to ransom this summer.

The business decision made absolute sense, the only, and i repeat only, issue here is whether Kenny made the bad decision on who to buy. So far, it looks like he has, at the same time, folk really should take a step back and look at what the club is trying to do. They went on LFC.TV and told us the plan was a 5 year one.

Christ I could barely disagree more.

I think you are really, really struggling to defend the decision to spend the money as it came in.

Tell you what, just as an experiment, lets see if Newcastle are forced to spend 30m on their next signing....since everybody knows they have money!

mormank wrote: »

Why exactly should you get more than we are getting if you give a manager 100m?? It all depends on where you are when you start spending that 100m of course. Kenny is in a much better position now imo than when he took over. If you gave Alex mcleish 100mill, for example, and told him to sign whoever he could with his team not in europe but first he has to sell Bent and Agbonlahor do you think they would be ahead of us now or something?? Some people expect too much in this life and then go onto internet forums and crib about everything. (That last part isn't necessarily directed at you, only if you feel you are on of these people)

Whilst I agree with most of that I think its very obvious.

If you'd like me to elaborate on the original point then I will say that 100m should get you more than what we have..considering what we began with (Best keeper in the league, two good centre halfs (and Carra!), a good right back, Gerrard, Kuyt, Lucas etc etc).

Regarding your last point, I always find the "god all people ever do is bitch on the internet" point to be the last bastion of a scoundrel! - kind of like arguing a point with somebody and then (for whatever reason) trying to end it with "well god who cares anyway!".

What else would we be talking about in a Liverpool thread on a discussion forum?

Chucky the tree · 27-12-2011 08:49PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I disagree completely.

So you think if we said £50m for Torres and we're not going any lower Chelsea would have just pulled the plug on the deal?

djPSB · 27-12-2011 08:55PM

It's important to remember that Carroll was bought in the closing hours of the transfer window, and that we were involved in a relegation battle at the time.
We couldn't have risked waiting until the summer to buy a new striker.

It wasn't possible at the time to attract top class strikers when we were lingering just outside the relegation zone.

I thought Carroll did fairly well yesterday, alot better than Suarez. Suarez wasted chance after chance.

I find it funny how people idolise Suarez when he has only scored one goal in eleven games.

Give Carroll a chance up front, and his game will improve alot when Gerrard comes back.

Blatter · 27-12-2011 08:57PM

daithijjj wrote: »

Its not about the price tag, have already said it could prove to define Kenny as manager this time around. Its about how the owners conducted the business. People need to separate the two.

There is an overwhelming sense of naivety i get from folk who hold this opinion that had we kept the money for 5 months, all other clubs would have just forgotten we had a 50 mil sized hole in our pockets. We would have been held to ransom regardless. We spent the Torres money and im fairly sure people think we were still held to ransom this summer.

The business decision made absolute sense, the only, and i repeat only, issue here is whether Kenny made the bad decision on who to buy. So far, it looks like he has, at the same time, folk really should take a step back and look at what the club is trying to do. They went on LFC.TV and told us the plan was a 5 year one.

Now, Henry has said 4th is where we need to be at. As frustrating as it is, if Adam had taken his pen and found the back row of the kop with his clearance we would be 4th right now, even with a misfiring attack and no Gerrard.

Its disappointing not to be there (4th) today, do people think anyone doesnt feel that way?, inc the manager and players?, from what i saw they felt the same as us after the last 2 games. Lets see what happens in Jan and take it from there, seasons get very long if your opinion kneejerks from week to week.

In fairness, United have been since justified for not immediately splashing large sums of the £80m they received for Ronaldo. They spent in drips and drabs since and then spent £50m in the Summer gone by.

The smart thing to do in that situation is to hold on to the money, make plans and spend it intelligently rather than spending it to prove a point politically or to appease fans.

murpho999 · 27-12-2011 09:09PM

Haven't been looking at this thread as often as I used to, but come back today and yet again it's the Carroll valuation debate.....will it ever end?

Chucky the tree · 27-12-2011 09:10PM

djPSB wrote: »

It's important to remember that Carroll was bought in the closing hours of the transfer window, and that we were involved in a relegation battle at the time.
We couldn't have risked waiting until the summer to buy a new striker.

It wasn't possible at the time to attract top class strikers when we were lingering just outside the relegation zone.

I thought Carroll did fairly well yesterday, alot better than Suarez. Suarez wasted chance after chance.

I find it funny how people idolise Suarez when he has only scored one goal in eleven games.

Give Carroll a chance up front, and his game will improve alot when Gerrard comes back.

7th place is lingering just outside the relegation zone now? :pac:

Jesus Wept · 27-12-2011 09:28PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Haven't been looking at this thread as often as I used to, but come back today and yet again it's the Carroll valuation debate.....will it ever end?

Might try to bring the Gareth Barry transfer saga back into the discussion.

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 09:42PM

noodler wrote: »

Christ I could barely disagree more.

I think you are really, really struggling to defend the decision to spend the money as it came in.

Tell you what, just as an experiment, lets see if Newcastle are forced to spend 30m on their next signing....since everybody knows they have money!

Whilst I agree with most of that I think its very obvious.

If you'd like me to elaborate on the original point then I will say that 100m should get you more than what we have..considering what we began with (Best keeper in the league, two good centre halfs (and Carra!), a good right back, Gerrard, Kuyt, Lucas etc etc).

Regarding your last point, I always find the "god all people ever do is bitch on the internet" point to be the last bastion of a scoundrel! - kind of like arguing a point with somebody and then (for whatever reason) trying to end it with "well god who cares anyway!".

What else would we be talking about in a Liverpool thread on a discussion forum?

The ones who are struggling are the ones who are searching for enlightenment, they dont know who to blame, the owners, Comoli, Kenny or Carroll himself.

Going by what some peoples logic is, Atletico Madrid also made a ridiculous decision to go straight out and spend everything they got for Aguero on Falcao.

Again, for the hard of hearing, it is not the business decision but who picked the player. Problem is, its not as easy for some to come out and say they want Kenny to task over it, and the reason for that is, that they know the manager has stated form day1 that the player was brought in with the future in mind and not just instant gratification. Maybe he will get a solid run if Suarez ban stands and improve.

Leiva · 27-12-2011 09:53PM

daithijjj wrote: »

The ones who are struggling are the ones who are searching for enlightenment, they dont know who to blame, the owners, Comoli, Kenny or Carroll himself.

Going by what some peoples logic is, Atletico Madrid also made a ridiculous decision to go straight out and spend everything they got for Aguero on Falcao.

Again, for the hard of hearing, it is not the business decision but who picked the player. Problem is, its not as easy for some to come out and say they want Kenny to task over it, and the reason for that is, that they know the manager has stated form day1 that the player was brought in with the future in mind and not just instant gratification. Maybe he will get a solid run if Suarez ban stands and improve.

I for one (hopefully) trot back I'm here after he gets his chance and regular starting spot with my tail between my legs after my assumptions about Carroll are proven untrue , but somehow I doubt it .

I'm not going to put a time scale on things as people mention five year plans etc but I would be very surprised if Carroll is still wearing a Liverpool jersey in four years time.

Only time will tell and unlike other players who prove the majority wrong over time I can't see any potential in Andy Carroll .

I like to think I have a good eye for a player (like us all

) but even in the dark days of say Lucas time I always seen something ,a potential , but with Carroll there is not one thing that inspires me .

Again I hope I'm wrong .

daithijjj · 27-12-2011 09:58PM

Blatter wrote: »

In fairness, United have been since justified for not immediately splashing large sums of the £80m they received for Ronaldo. They spent in drips and drabs since and then spent £50m in the Summer gone by.

The smart thing to do in that situation is to hold on to the money, make plans and spend it intelligently rather than spending it to prove a point politically or to appease fans.

But ye had a bedrock of previous investment coming through, that would be a fine example if United hadn't made moves to combat his departure prior to that. United paid 17 mill on a Portuguese player with a view to the future and it took him 2 seasons to settle into the club at least. Nani and Valencia as back up to losing Ronaldo is not the same as David Ngog starting most games.

Some would say that United were pushed into an early bid on Phil Jones. And i dont need to read on boards that some United fans are not entirely happy with DeGea, some of my own friends arent convinced. Was it a success so far? Will ye give him time?, do young players deserve time?. Sure they do, otherwise you just get a merry go round and no stability.

SlickRic · 27-12-2011 10:56PM

thank Christ for Arsenal's shít start to the season.

thank Christ also for Chelsea's general impotence in front of goal that seems to be mirroring ours (bar Sturridge).

how we're only a couple of points from 4th is a miracle considering how shot-shy we've been.

it makes me feel that little bit more optimistic.

also, i don't think i'd mind a ban for Suarez. he surely needs a rest, and i think Andy with a run of games under his belt could get going. he would've had the winner on any other day, and could've had another. i still think there's an excellent goalscorer in there somewhere, and only a proper run in the team will have us know for sure.

ilovelamp2000 · 27-12-2011 11:11PM

I don't know if he's got in him to be an excellent scorer but there's no reason he shouldn't be able to hit double figures in the league every season.

He definitely needs to be given time to find his role in this team.

mayordenis · 27-12-2011 11:15PM

One thing I'll say is Liverpool are just plain **** at the moment, scapegoating any 1 in particular here is moronic, there's 11 starters, 7 subs and the entire backroom staff that just aren't getting it done right now.

Not saying we need a total overhaul at all just that we need to not look at 1 player be that Suarez, Carroll, Henderson or anyone else, they all need to sort their ****.

Chucky the tree · 27-12-2011 11:22PM

mayordenis wrote: »

One thing I'll say is Liverpool are just plain **** at the moment, scapegoating any 1 in particular here is moronic, there's 11 starters, 7 subs and the entire backroom staff that just aren't getting it done right now.

Not saying we need a total overhaul at all just that we need to not look at 1 player be that Suarez, Carroll, Henderson or anyone else, they all need to sort their ****.

We have the joint best defense in the league. While one player shouldn't be scapegoated you can't blame our predicement on the back four.

Knex* · 27-12-2011 11:23PM

mayordenis wrote: »

One thing I'll say is Liverpool are just plain **** at the moment, scapegoating any 1 in particular here is moronic, there's 11 starters, 7 subs and the entire backroom staff that just aren't getting it done right now.

Not saying we need a total overhaul at all just that we need to not look at 1 player be that Suarez, Carroll, Henderson or anyone else, they all need to sort their ****.

Theres really only been two games this season where at the end of it I couldn't find any positives in the way we played. Tottenham and Swansea.

To say Liverpool are "just plain ****" is simply not true and overreaction of the highest order. To rob from Any Given Sunday, its a matter of inches that we are not in 4th spot at the moment and thats just from Adam's penalty and own goal alone, nevermind the countless worldclass saves and times we've hit the woodwork.

Phoenix Park · 27-12-2011 11:24PM

mayordenis wrote: »

One thing I'll say is Liverpool are just plain **** at the moment, scapegoating any 1 in particular here is moronic, there's 11 starters, 7 subs and the entire backroom staff that just aren't getting it done right now.

Not saying we need a total overhaul at all just that we need to not look at 1 player be that Suarez, Carroll, Henderson or anyone else, they all need to sort their ****.

Our defence is now looking great, not sure what more the likes of Agger and Skrtel can be expected to do. Personally, i feel the opposite to you and am only blaming a few, namely Suarez, Downing, Adam, and arguably Henderson and Carroll. Suarez shooting is embarrassing its so bad.

willmunny1990 · 27-12-2011 11:26PM

I actually feel sorry for Andy, the price tag must be an awful burden to him. To be fair he never valued himself as a £35million signing. It was the club.

How can a club fork out £35 million on a 10-15million pound player at best?

Great business by Ashley, but astonishingly poor business from Liverpool.

Blatter · 27-12-2011 11:31PM

daithijjj wrote: »

But ye had a bedrock of previous investment coming through, that would be a fine example if United hadn't made moves to combat his departure prior to that. United paid 17 mill on a Portuguese player with a view to the future and it took him 2 seasons to settle into the club at least. Nani and Valencia as back up to losing Ronaldo is not the same as David Ngog starting most games.

Some would say that United were pushed into an early bid on Phil Jones. And i dont need to read on boards that some United fans are not entirely happy with DeGea, some of my own friends arent convinced. Was it a success so far? Will ye give him time?, do young players deserve time?. Sure they do, otherwise you just get a merry go round and no stability.

Yes, I agree with the sentiment of your post about us having had ready made replacements at the club and it was easier for us not to splash the money. Also agree that young players deserve time and clubs need stability and not knee jerk reactions and decisions.

However, my point was that I don't believe that Liverpool had the need to sign a Torres replacement immediately last January. The season was practically finished for Liverpool; ye were some way off the top 4, out of the CC and the FA Cup. The Europa League was the only realistic competition you were in. I said at the time myself(along with many others) that they should have held off on buying, saved the money and spent it in the Summer on a player that they had done their homework on.

The only argument that could be put forward to support the signing was that Liverpool had their eye on Carroll for a long time, had decided they definitely wanted him and paid extra to get him in so he'd have extra time to settle in and be better prepared for the beginning of this season.

From an outsider looking in, I didn't see this. I saw Liverpool selling Torres and their owners desperate to spend a large chunk of the money to appease fans and signal their ambition. It would seem there was little planning done on the Carroll transfer. The first thing that struck me was that it appeared he didn't even want to leave Newcastle in the first place. When you're about to spend £35m on a 22 year old, one of the first things you should be sure of is that he wants to play for Liverpool.

It's all well and good scouting a player and recognising his ability/potential, but getting a feel for his hunger to succeed, mental strength, susceptibility to a move etc. are all just as important. and it seems to me that Liverpool either did very little of that or paid very little heath to it, which was criminal imo.

It's looking at the moment like it's been a massive mistake but he could still come good and repay at least some of the money. He has ability, he was earmarked as a talent for years before his purple patch in the Premiership with Newcastle. He should be given more time of course. If nothing changes, well there's nothing you can do but learn from the mistake and move on.

SlickRic · 27-12-2011 11:34PM

willmunny1990 wrote: »

I actually feel sorry for Andy, the price tag must be an awful burden to him. To be fair he never valued himself as a £35million signing. It was the club.

How can a club fork out £35 million on a 10-15million pound player at best?

Great business by Ashley, but astonishingly poor business from Liverpool.

simply, the club fúcked up...just a bad piece of business.

they panicked, needing to offload Torres, while also wanting to then replace him immediately, as a statement of intent and to "keep the fans onside", and in doing so, promising Newcastle they'd pay 15m less than whatever we got from Chelsea.

it's as simple as that.

as you say, it's not Andy's fault, and he could turn into a very good player for us. it's just unfortunate that he's had the burden of the price-tag.

i believe the club just had a brainfart, not thinking at all rationally in the whole saga. they got so engrossed in signing a replacement, and in trying to do deals with Chelsea and Newcastle, that they just lost the run of themselves.

Phoenix Park · 27-12-2011 11:38PM

willmunny1990 wrote: »

I actually feel sorry for Andy, the price tag must be an awful burden to him. To be fair he never valued himself as a £35million signing. It was the club.

How can a club fork out £35 million on a 10-15million pound player at best?

Great business by Ashley, but astonishingly poor business from Liverpool.

and you fcked up for 50 million, astonishingly poor business from Chelsea, spending 50 million on a 10-15million pound player at best (i'm note sure i'm even joking anymore)

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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