k31 rifle 7.5 swiss

black powder colt · 21-12-2011 11:49PM #1

sorry if this is a stupid question. I was told that the 7.5 swiss round was larger then .308 however i thought it was smaller. Any help

Norwayviking · 22-12-2011 12:42AM

black powder colt wrote: »

sorry if this is a stupid question. I was told that the 7.5 swiss round was larger then .308 however i thought it was smaller. Any help

7.5x55 swiss
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter 7.77 mm (0.306 in)
Neck diameter 8.50 mm (0.335 in)
Shoulder diameter 11.60 mm (0.457 in)
Base diameter 12.60 mm (0.496 in)
Rim diameter 12.65 mm (0.498 in)
Rim thickness 1.65 mm (0.065 in)
Case length 55.60 mm (2.189 in)
Overall length 77.70 mm (3.059 in)

308 winchester
Case type Rimless, Bottleneck
Bullet diameter 0.308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter 0.3433 in (8.72 mm)
Shoulder diameter 0.4539 in (11.53 mm)
Base diameter 0.4709 in (11.96 mm)
Rim diameter 0.4728 in (12.01 mm)
Rim thickness 0.0539 in (1.37 mm)
Case length 2.015 (51.18 mm)
Overall length 2.800 (71.12 mm)

308 win is slightly larger than 7.5x55 swiss;)

FISMA · 22-12-2011 12:45AM

black powder colt wrote: »

sorry if this is a stupid question. I was told that the 7.5 swiss round was larger then .308 however i thought it was smaller. Any help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5%C3%9755mm_Swiss

Whatcha mean "bigger?" More powder, case volume, neck, bullet?

Give the Hornady site a browse and check out the load tables - might help.

jay.b · 22-12-2011 12:49AM

hope this is of some help.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/7-5x55_Swiss.htm

rowa · 22-12-2011 01:11AM

They are a lovely rifle, cheap for what you get , tac foley on here has one and can tell you more about them or ask on the vcrai.com site.

tac foley · 22-12-2011 01:26AM

What do you want to know?

The K31 is probably the most accurate manually-operated service rifle ever made, anywhere, due to two things -

1. It's made the way the Swiss make everything - fabulously well and precisely.

2. It shoots the best military ammunition ever to go through any military firearm - period. Any ten rounds of the GP11 ammunition, taken at random from ammunition dated from the late 1950's to 1982 - the last lot to be issued as surplus on the international market - is identical. And I don't mean 'pretty much the same', I mean identical. Every bullet will weight 174gr and every charge will weight within a tenth of a grain of 51grs.

This is why we tend to use this self-same ammunition in our Swiss match 300m target rifles, no matter how much we have paid for them.

A reasonable K31 will shoot all the ammunition you have into around an inch with open sights, and a good one slightly less. This is because their Swiss owners kept them at home and [usually] loved them - keeping to the unusual cleaning régime of NOT oiling anything.

Nope, they greased it all with a lighweight grease simply called 'Waffenfett' - gun grease. All over the mechanism, all over the stock, and then down the bore, cleaning it out before shooting. Add to that the ultra-high Chrome content of the barrel and you can see why they have lasted so long. My K31, fitted with either a clamp-on scope mount or a similarly-fitted precision Gehmann dioptre sight, was made in 1944, but still shoots under an inch with milsurp ammunition. My 96/00 carbine, converted in 1914, has a mint bore from end to end.

I've been shooting Swiss schtuff since 1979, when I bought my guns for peanuts. Today, you can find them in the Republic of Ireland if you know where to look - I'm not going to advertise but if you want to know more, ask a couple of the guys over on the vcrai forum who have them url]www.vcrai.com[/url. Sadly, you'll also meet up with me again on that forum, but you can't be happy all your life, eh?

tac

FISMA · 22-12-2011 01:30AM

Anyone that has the K31 probably popped the steel piece off of the butt stock as soon as they got the rifle home to see if there was a tag underneath.

I was lucky and found a lad from Zurich was issued my rifle.

I had tried to google him to no avail.

Has anyone ever successfully contacted a K31's previous owner or has any advice on how to do so?

I've tried the phone-book, Facebook, et al. Still no hits.

Ideas?

rowa · 22-12-2011 02:31AM

FISMA wrote: »

Anyone that has the K31 probably popped the steel piece off of the butt stock as soon as they got the rifle home to see if there was a tag underneath.

I was lucky and found a lad from Zurich was issued my rifle.

I had tried to google him to no avail.

Has anyone ever successfully contacted a K31's previous owner or has any advice on how to do so?

I've tried the phone-book, Facebook, et al. Still no hits.

Ideas?

There was an american enthusiast who found the tag and did contact the previous keeper , he even travelled over from america to switzerland to meet him and did a write up about it on one of the mil-surp forums.
As i have said to tac before , the k31 is an excellent rifle , but one that never fired a shot in anger , to a lot of people having a military surplus means owning a bit of military history , you never know what a 1939-1945 lee enfield/ mauser 98/ mosin nagant has seen action wise, which is part of the fun.

tac foley · 22-12-2011 12:44PM

FISMA wrote: »

Anyone that has the K31 probably popped the steel piece off of the butt stock as soon as they got the rifle home to see if there was a tag underneath.

I was lucky and found a lad from Zurich was issued my rifle.

I had tried to google him to no avail.

Has anyone ever successfully contacted a K31's previous owner or has any advice on how to do so?

I've tried the phone-book, Facebook, et al. Still no hits.

Ideas?

Facebook? You have to be kidding me. The oldest K31 owners are now well into their 9th decade, and are probably not users of facebook, or any other on-line stuff. They are also Swiss, for whom the word 'stuffy' was coined, and prolly wouldn't talk to you in the street unless they had had the recommendation of at least three other people they could trust.

Soooooooooooooooooooooo......

1. Log on to www.swissrifles.com

2. Select - straight-pull - from the left-hand sidebar menu.

3. Go to the sticky that advises you how to make contact, and where you will find a CORRECTLY FORMAL version of all three common languages used in Switzerland. Do NOT assume that the former owner speaks English of any kind. Even the last-dated K31 owner will be around 70-something now, and older Swiss can be pretty cranky, hence the rather formal wording of the letters. The Swiss like to see things done correctly, remember, and breezing in with 'Hi there, Egon/Anton/Giuseppe/Henri, I've got your old gun, howsabout that, eh?' will earn you no coconuts. IF there is a return letter expressing 'No thank you, I am not interested' it will be a frosty one, I can tell you.

Remember that without exception, every K11 owner is now shooting on that celestial range, where the sun is always over your shoulder, and the breeze is gentle, and ammunition is brought to you by good-lookin' gals in diaphanous robes. However, his descendants may well show an interest, but on the other paw, they might not give a hoot, and the cold shoulder will be your reward.

You might also track him down by using the Swiss phone book - on line.

A couple of tips - the tag will be surname/forename order. When finding the name in the phone book, it might have another name in brackets after it, like this - Oberfelder (-Stassli)

The bracketed name is the maiden name of his wife.

Be prepared to do some research by acquiring a suitable dictionary on-line - to tell you what his occupation is/was. A few mono-lingual hopefuls, working alone, have managed to write to 'Herr cow-farm co-operative' or 'Herr former railway employee' instead of the guy's name.

Ask here, or over on www.vcrai.com - I can help with translating the rather odd European handwriting - I grew up with it, after all.

tac

tac foley · 22-12-2011 01:04PM

Norwayviking wrote: »

308 win is slightly larger than 7.5x55 swiss;)

Having noted that, we ALL use .308 diameter bullets in reloading, in spite of the very minor difference. None of our many thousands of Swiss rifles/carbines chambered for the 7.5x55 Swiss seem to have noticed the difference over the many years that we have been shooting non-military surplus ammunition.

When you guys get your reloading, we can talk some more about it.

tac

Norwayviking · 22-12-2011 02:49PM

tac foley wrote: »

Having noted that, we ALL use .308 diameter bullets in reloading, in spite of the very minor difference. None of our many thousands of Swiss rifles/carbines chambered for the 7.5x55 Swiss seem to have noticed the difference over the many years that we have been shooting non-military surplus ammunition.

When you guys get your reloading, we can talk some more about it.

tac

Hi Tac

yes i know you can reload 308 bullets in the swiss 7.5x55,but can you do the same the opposite way around?

tac foley · 22-12-2011 04:26PM

Norwayviking wrote: »

Hi Tac

yes i know you can reload 308 bullets in the swiss 7.5x55,but can you do the same the opposite way around?

I apologise in advance for my obvious confusion, but I don't understand your question.

The table that you have posted is not correct - the officially designated diameter of the 174gr GP11 bullet is 0,3086".
As there is no readily available commercially-manufactured bullet with a measurable difference the world uses readily-available .308" diameter bullets to make or to reload 7.5x55 Swiss ammunition. That little 0.0006 is 6/10,000 of an inch [in metric - 0.0154mm.] It is not possible to manufacture commercially to this standard of measurement.

The three CIP manufacturers of 7.5x55 Swiss ammuntion - Norma, Prvi Partizan [PPU] and RUAG [match only], use ordinary .308 diameter bullets.

The Swiss did not make GP11 in component form for handloaders to experiment with, so no military bullets were ever available for this purpose - nor is there any commercial Swiss bullet manufacturing company that sells to the public. RUAG makes loaded ammunition in boxes, but not cartridge cases/components.

tac

Norwayviking · 22-12-2011 08:28PM

tac foley wrote: »

I apologise in advance for my obvious confusion, but I don't understand your question.

The table that you have posted is not correct - the officially designated diameter of the 174gr GP11 bullet is 0,3086".
As there is no readily available commercially-manufactured bullet with a measurable difference the world uses .308" diameter bullets to make and reload 7.5x55 Swiss ammunition. That little 0.0006 is 6/10,000 of an inch [in metric - 0.0154mm.] It is not possible to manufacture commercially to this standard of measurement.

The three CIP manufacturers of 7.5x55 Swiss ammuntion - Norma, Prvi Partizan [PPU] and RUAG [match only], use ordinary .308 diameter bullets.

The Swiss did not make GP11 in component form for handloaders to experiment with, so no military bullets were ever available for this purpose - nor is there any commercial Swiss bullet manufacturing company.

tac

Hi tac
Thanks
Yes thats what i found a bit odd.
Cause the slight difference there is between the two,you wouldnt think there was any difference in the reloading of the two either.
So you wont find any commericialy 7.5x55 bullets on the market,they use 308 bullets.
And yes the table are from Wikipedia,so it could be a bit wrong in the numbers.
Thanks for clearing that for me.;):D

NV

tac foley · 22-12-2011 08:53PM

Norwayviking wrote: »

Hi tac
Thanks
Yes thats what i found a bit odd.
Cause he slight difference there is between the two,you wouldnt think there was any difference in the reloading of the two either.
So you wont find any commericialy 7.5x55 bullets on the market,they use 308 bullets.
And yes the table are from Wikipedia,so it could be a bit wrong in the numbers.
Thanks for clearing that for me.;):D

NV

Sir - there is no difference - the bullet fired from the 7.5x55 Swiss firearm IS .308 diameter. I think that maybe you are confungling the designated title of a named calibre with the ACTUAL diameter of a bullet fired from that particular gun.

As for the 'slight difference' that you mention, that 'slight difference' is less than a tenth of the thickness of a piece of printer paper, and is readily accommodated within bullet manufacturing tolerances.

We all know the .303 British cartridge, but is the .303 bullet actually .303" in diameter? It is not. They can be obtained from different makers, at diameters between .311" and 316", like the bore of the rifles that shoot them. The .303 name of the calibre is the NBD - nominal bore diameter, and in the case of the .303" it is the distance between the lands of the barrel and not the grooves.

The .38cal AND the 9mm Para cartridge both fire a bullet that measures .357" - the .44" revolver fires a .429" bullet, and so on. The apparent difference in measurement is that the .303" was originally a BP lead bulletted cartridge, so the soft lead bullet had to be a lot larger than the NBD to engage the grooves. As such, most black powder bullets are larger than their designated calibres, and most nitro-propellant bullets are smaller. In this way, a BP .44" cal revolver will shoot a bullet that measures at least .451" - right up to .457". The .58cal Minié bullet can be anything up to .585" - and it will still fit in the muzzle of the gun shooting it.

Remember that the 7.5x55 Swiss was originally designed as a paper-patched lead bullet.

Of course, the '55' in the title has nothing to do with the bullet - it is the length of the cartridge case in millimetres.

tac

Norwayviking · 22-12-2011 09:15PM

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - there is no difference - the 7.5mm bullet IS .308 diameter. I think that maybe you are confungling the designated title of a named calibre with the ACTUAL diameter of a bullet fired from that particular gun.

As for the 'slight difference' that you mention, that 'slight difference' is less than a tenth of the thickness of a piece of printer paper, and is readily accommodated within bullet manufacturing tolerances.

We all know the .303 British cartridge, but is the .303 bullet actually .303" in diameter? It is not. They can be obtained from different makers, at diameters between .311" and 316", like the bore of the rifles that shoot them. The .303 name of the calibre is the NBD - nominal bore diameter, and in the case of the .303" it is the distance between the lands of the barrel and not the grooves.

The .38cal AND the 9mm Para cartridge both fire a bullet that measures .357" - the .44" revolver fires a .429" bullet, and so on. The apparent difference in measurement is that the .303" was originally a BP lead bulletted cartridge, so the bullet had to be a lot larger than the NBD to engage the grooves, so most black powder bullets are larger than their designated calibres, and most nitro-propellant bullets are smaller. In this way, a BP .44" cal revolver will shoot a bullet that measures at least .451" - right up to .457"

Remember that the 7.5x55 Swiss was originally designed as a paper-patched lead bullet.

Of course, the '55' in the title has nothing to do with the bullet - it is the length of the cartridge case in millimetres.

tac

Yes ,youre right i am thinking calibre 7.82x51 vs 7.5x55;)
And the difference from
Swiss 7.5x55
Bullet diameter 7.77 mm (0.306 in)
Neck diameter 8.50 mm (0.335 in)

vs

308 win
Bullet diameter 0.308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter 0.3433 in (8.72 mm)

Which probaly is so little in difference that they are nearly identical.
atleast i got a bit wiser regarding the 7.5x55 swiss.
Thanks Tac

black powder colt · 22-12-2011 10:00PM

Thanks for the answers.I was thinking of getting 2 new rifles in the new year a mosin sniper and a k31.My lee is getting too expensive to shoot im down to my last 100 rounds of mill surp 60s south African the joys of click bang.The cheapest privi stuff is 85c per round and soon to go up no doubt.I would have prefered a k98 to a mosin but i got the impresion from the guardi id be better off with a non restricted firearm or 3.How much is mill surp plinking ammo for the above mentioned id imagine 7.62x54r is cheap but what about 7.5 swiss. Also i herd the swiss is non corosive is that true ????

rowa · 22-12-2011 10:38PM

I'd certainly think the ammunition for the other calibres would be the same price or even more expensive then what you pay for the .303, the russian stuff might be a bit cheaper but i think its corrosive.
If you want a cheap to shoot military surplus rifle , you should go for a .308/7.62. An indian enfield or norwegian mauser.

arrowloopboy · 22-12-2011 11:34PM

Theres 30 microns in the difference,dust that suspends is classed as 63 microns or less,so its half the size of a spec of dust(that suspends):D.

tac foley · 22-12-2011 11:59PM

I have no idea about the cost of shooting milsurp in the RoI, but I'd like to offer my $0.02 nonetheless.

1. Genuinely Russian military surplus green steel lacquered case 7.62x54R IS corrosive, BUT the Barnaul-boxed commercial stuff is not. So they say.

2. Milsurp .303 is getting VERY hard to find - the best of the bunch was either the Sarth Effrican stuff marked up as 7.7mm British R1, or the Greek HXO stuff. Prvi Partizan 174gr is good and exactly replicates the real thing. FNM of Portugal stuff is also good.

3. 30-06 military surplus from Black Hills is now so rare that I haven't seen any in years over here in Yoorup.

4. DAG NATO 7.62x51 is VERY good, bearing in mind that it is a light bullet - depending on age - either 147 or 155gr. My Krico loves it to bits.

5. Not seen any Swedish milsurp here in UK in 20 years, same with 6.5 Carcano. French stuff is available here for the awful-looking Lebel, but only Stevie Wonder could love the rifle. Japanese 7.7 is around too, if anybody out there has an Arisaka...

6. 7.5x55 Swiss military surplus is around, I'm told [try Fingal Sports at Naul and tell john there I sent you], but the price is unknown to me. The Prvi Partizan stuff shoots low for me in both my Swiss rifles - after chrono-ing it I found that it average almost 230fps slower than the real stuff.

Hope this helps.

Apologies to those who might be offended by me taking over a thread that seems to be based on old guns - at the risk of getting in the sh!te I'd like to point out that there IS a site that talks about little else.

@Mr black powder colt - where on earth do you get ammunition for your Lee in Ireland? Winchester stopped making ammunition back in 1935, and like everybody else who has one of these rare little rifles [only 15,000 were ever made for the US Navy], I have to make my own. I had no idea that South Africa had ever made the stuff. I think you must have the only one in the country and I'd dearly love to see pictures of it to compare with mine.

tac
www.vcrai.com

Tackleberrywho · 23-12-2011 12:11AM

I had .303 hunting Ammo in my hand 2 weeks ago.

Cheap enough if I remember, Federal I think, or some oddball US brand.

tac foley · 23-12-2011 12:24AM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I had .303 hunting Ammo in my hand 2 weeks ago.

Cheap enough if I remember, Federal I think, or some oddball US brand.

Are you allowed to shoot soft point/expanding ammunition on ranges in Ireland?

tac

Tackleberrywho · 23-12-2011 12:30AM

tac foley wrote: »

Are you allowed to shoot soft point/expanding ammunition on ranges in Ireland?

tac

Why not? BTHP expand.
I personally shot several deer with a Swedish Mauser when I was a teen.

I did have a scope on mine though

tac foley · 23-12-2011 11:22AM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Why not? BTHP expand.
I personally shot several deer with a Swedish Mauser when I was a teen.

I did have a scope on mine though

Ah right. Here in UK only FMJ ammunition is permitted to be fired on a range.

Expanding/soft point ammunition, apart from the occasional five-shots for zeroing purposes, is prohibited.

The tiny open tip of the more usual BTHP as found in most modern target/match ammunition is not there for the purpose of improving expansion, but as an aerodynamic necessity.

Just wondering why you mentioned soft-point ammunition when the OP was asking about military surplus stuff, is all.

tac

Tackleberrywho · 23-12-2011 03:11PM

tac foley wrote: »

Ah right. Here in UK only FMJ ammunition is permitted to be fired on a range.

Expanding/soft point ammunition, apart from the occasional five-shots for zeroing purposes, is prohibited.

The tiny open tip of the more usual BTHP as found in most modern target/match ammunition is not there for the purpose of improving expansion, but as an aerodynamic necessity.

Just wondering why you mentioned soft-point ammunition when the OP was asking about military surplus stuff, is all.

tac

Someone mentioned LE, I happened to see ammo for sale for it recently is all.
I do know of one or two that use Mil surp rifles hunting.

tac foley · 23-12-2011 05:21PM

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Someone mentioned LE, I happened to see ammo for sale for it recently is all.
I do know of one or two that use Mil surp rifles hunting.

Using the military surplus rifle is one thing - I've done it myself [once] - but the use of military surplus ammunition on live targets is inhumane.

It is also prohibited in every country I've ever shot game in, but of course, never having shot in the Republic of Ireland, your laws might be different.

tac

Tackleberrywho · 23-12-2011 05:28PM

tac foley wrote: »

Using the military surplus rifle is one thing - I've done it myself [once] - but the use of military surplus ammunition on live targets is inhumane.

It is also prohibited in every country I've ever shot game in, but of course, never having shot in the Republic of Ireland, your laws might be different.

tac

Mil Surp Rifles, hunting ammo......
My example earlier of my Swedish mauser and Norma BT ammo, garands .308, LE with Soft nose.

You misread my quote

harmoniums · 26-12-2011 10:13PM

Both of these rounds were fired in my K31.
The one on the left is 7.62 NATO.
Be careful when you have multiple calibers out on the bench, my friend who loaded and chambered the 7.62 got a fairly bloody lip from the gas blowback.
Thank God he was wearing good shooting glasses.

harmoniums · 27-12-2011 01:05AM

harmoniums wrote: »

Both of these rounds were fired in my K31.
The one on the left is 7.62 NATO.
Be careful when you have multiple calibers out on the bench, my friend who loaded and chambered the 7.62 got a fairly bloody lip from the gas blowback.
Thank God he was wearing good shooting glasses.

btw, the bullet did hit the paper @ 100 yards, but was way low, probably because a bunch of the expanding gas put its energy into punishing an eejits lips and gums rather than pushing the bullet to its full speed.

FISMA · 27-12-2011 02:29AM

harmoniums wrote: »

Be careful when you have multiple calibers out on the bench

+1 How true it is.

This is another reason why I use the single stage presses [States side] and not the multiple. Maybe if I loaded something like 9mm, where I can use 1000 rounds on a good weekend with the lads. But rifle loads, always single stage, one type bullet, powder, and load spec.

tac foley · 27-12-2011 11:18AM

FISMA wrote: »

+1 How true it is.

This is another reason why I use the single stage presses [States side] and not the multiple. Maybe if I loaded something like 9mm, where I can use 1000 rounds on a good weekend with the lads. But rifle loads, always single stage, one type bullet, powder, and load spec.

Reloading - I have never had anything except my faithish old Rockchucker to reload rifle cartridges, and I have a flip-chart right in front to me to remind me of the calibre and the load I'm working on. Three of us shared an elctrically-driven Dillon press when we had handguns that needed a high-volume of relaods - between 500 and 800 a week - each. Needless to say, that went years ago, and my .357Mag cartridges are done one at a time on a Lee turret press.

It is always a policy here in UK to have only ONE calibre of arm on the shooting bench at the same time. Judging from the OP's post, that seems eminently suitable to me.

tac

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k31 rifle 7.5 swiss

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