The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

ISAW · 20-12-2011 12:48pm

PDN wrote: »

It's hardly 'tying your hands' to point out the unreasonable nature of your demand.

Based on the "reasonable" nature of their claim that ther is certainly prissts abusing kids in the last three years?

If anyone defames an individual then please report the post.

I have no locus standi in the matter. The point is you are applying a double standard. they can claim that priests abuse people but I can't ask them for evidence.

Unfortunately, given the events of the last few decades, it is inevitable that people are going to be sceptical of claims that things have changed.

Butther is ample statistical data available. All they have to do is read it.

Otherwise I'm pretty sure this thread would have long ago gone dormant and we would all be talking about other things.

And you evidence is?

In fact when people like me me are not arounf the 2media myth" of "endemic pedo priests" is still being spread. I did the same about WMD in Iraq and was promised "loads of evidence" Only after a million plus dead do we find they hadn't got any evidence.
Similar is happening to education. Remove the church and all will be well and fair they cry. Just as was done in health the result - a mess of a health service.

There is abundant evidence of anti Catholic and anti clerical bias. One does not have to look very far to witness it. If similar comments were made about Jews or blacks or Islam or homosexuals then the people making the allegations of endemic would be asked to support them. Even Protestant clerical abuse which apparently is at a higher rate is left alone. I fact I believe the argument was specifdically made that discussing Protastanmt abuse is sectarian. But when it comes to attacking a group of male priests for one specific denomination these moderation restrictions are removed.

So please don't preach at me about demanding evidence when I ask others to support their bald assertions.

Zorbas · 20-12-2011 1:04pm

It would be interesting if the protagonists on this thread took a different approach where they focussed on the suffering caused by child abuse and how that caused by Catholic priests has greatly undermined the respect for and belief in the faith which is supposed to be a priests mission in life.
The point scoring and reliance on statistics / dam lies and "he said" "she said" tic tac becomes so boring and lacking in sincerity.
Noticeable that when some posters get excited they become totally unable to spell or form coherent sentences

PDN · 20-12-2011 1:14pm

Zorbas wrote: »

It would be interesting if the protagonists on this thread took a different approach where they focussed on the suffering caused by child abuse and how that caused by Catholic priests has greatly undermined the respect for and belief in the faith which is supposed to be a priests mission in life.
The point scoring and reliance on statistics / dam lies and "he said" "she said" tic tac becomes so boring and lacking in sincerity.
Noticeable that when some posters get excited they become totally unable to spell or form coherent sentences

If you're going to comment on someone else's spelling, it always pays to triple-check your post before hitting that "Submit Reply" button.

marienbad · 20-12-2011 2:27pm

Is it any wonder that such vile crimes were allowed continue unhindered for decades when such refusal to confront the truth was ''endemic'' within the organisation and that refusal is obviously alive and well in some quarters.

It is about time you confronted that appalling vista ISAW and stopped blaming everyone else. But you won't and prefer to wallow in your denial.

I think you are more interested in killing the thread than having a discussion.

Jerimiah 5.21 comes to mind.

marienbad · 20-12-2011 2:30pm

soterpisc wrote: »

Name 1 single abuse case in Ireland in the last 10 years committed by a Priest.

Behind that simple and humble statement from Archbishop Clifford is such terrible suffering and this is your response ?

gigino · 20-12-2011 4:17pm

ISAW wrote: »

If you take a sample of 100 child sex abusers (from the worst times in church histoey) abusers the likely hood is one will be a Roman Catholic priest.

So you say, though as discussed before other various studies would point to a higher incidence of clerical child abuse eg the Savi report here in the Republic says 2 out of the hundred abusers of boys were Priests and another 2 out of the hundred were religous teachers / brothers. Thats 4% in round numbers.

ISAW wrote: »

It is quite simple.
polulation about 4 million
One per cent = about 40,000

And what size should a group be ( on average ) to produce 4% of something?

There are just over 3000 Priests in the country now. I know there was a lot more, but it was not 160,000.

ISAW wrote: »

Care to reference it?
You are selectively quoting and you dint even read the report. You got it form someone else's research - probably mine. If you had the reference you could easily show you produced that report first.

ISAW wrote: »

So you continually say but you never produce the stats. All you do is shout "endemic"!
Wher is ther a report showing anything like "endemic"

That report, like the other government reports you mention, were gone in to in detail more than once, and you accepted the word endemic was used by the Irish government to describe child abuse in the Irish RCC, and I even looked up dictionaries on a number of occassions to explain the word endemic to you. I am not going back and repeating it all again for you.

soterpisc · 20-12-2011 7:06pm

marienbad wrote: »

Behind that simple and humble statement from Archbishop Clifford is such terrible suffering and this is your response ?

Diocese of Cloyne where the Bishop is, Has not had one single new abuse case in the last 10 years. The Complaints made were about abuse commited in the 80's. As bad as the abuse is, and its bad. There is no new news here.

So again I ask has there been 1 single new abuse case made in the last decade of abuse committed in the last decade. As far as the HSE and Gards are concerned there has not been, no one single new case of current abuse.

Zorbas · 20-12-2011 7:21pm

soterpisc wrote: »

Diocese of Cloyne where the Bishop is, Has not had one single new abuse case in the last 10 years. The Complaints made were about abuse commited in the 80's. As bad as the abuse is, and its bad. There is no new news here.

So again I ask has there been 1 single new abuse case made in the last decade of abuse committed in the last decade. As far as the HSE and Gards are concerned there has not been, no one single new case of current abuse.

What inside information have you got which gives you the confidence that there has been no rape of children by priests over the last 10 years?

soterpisc · 20-12-2011 7:36pm

Zorbas wrote: »

What inside information have you got which gives you the confidence that there has been no rape of children by priests over the last 10 years?

What inside knowledge have you to suggest there has? I go by the facts... What have you to go by? unfounded bias?

All I am saying is that Priests same as Doctors/Teachers etc... Should be afforded the same respect as any citizen, if they have never abuse (and not one single new case in 10 years has been reported) they this should be acknowledged... Instead of the media regurgitation past failings as if they were new present failings.

ISAW · 20-12-2011 8:23pm

Zorbas wrote: »

It would be interesting if the protagonists on this thread took a different approach where they focussed on the suffering caused by child abuse and how that caused by Catholic priests has greatly undermined the respect for and belief in the faith which is supposed to be a priests mission in life.

It would also be good if they supported their claims.
I for my part have always said the victims should be of primary concern. Apart from the victims of the other 99 per cent plus of sexual abusers the victims of clerical abuse can should be and are considered. But even when that is done it is criticized. In Ireland unprecedented amounts were paid out with no proof required. For doing this in a rapid manner the Church were criticized.

The point scoring and reliance on statistics / dam lies and "he said" "she said" tic tac becomes so boring and lacking in sincerity.

I can't apologise if I bore you. If you are claiming I am insincere then come out straight and say so and don't beat about the bush.

Noticeable that when some posters get excited they become totally unable to spell or form coherent sentences

Are you referring to me? Spelling flames are such a pathetic level of argument. But if you are referring to me while i sometimes have spelling errors, they are not necessarily because of over excitement and Im sure you cant show that they are.

ISAW · 20-12-2011 8:30pm

gigino wrote: »

So you say, though as discussed before other various studies would point to a higher incidence of clerical child abuse eg the Savi report here in the Republic says 2 out of the hundred abusers of boys were Priests and another 2 out of the hundred were religous teachers / brothers. Thats 4% in round numbers.

Buty the reliability of the sample is questionable. Im sure you are aware of the numbers involved. Need I refresh your memory? So you have ( from mermory) 3.8%. Now what if theat is plus or minus 3% error? The numbers were I thin six priests in a population of about 3,000. The cases were not all pedophile sex abuse. Apparent as found in other international studies was that clergy abused older teenage boys so it was homosexual ephebophilia. Also we have no way of knowing iof they wqere all Roman Catholic. Again internationally ( Jenkins for example) we have the stats saying that ( even though RC are far higher in terms of number oif clergy) more or as many non RC clergy abuse as RC clergy. I include Jewish and other clergy in this.

And what size should a group be ( on average ) to produce 4% of something?

A valid statistical test ( a students t test or chi squared teat for example ) will yield a reliability stat called a " p value" or "confidence" . SAVI does not have one for the 4% mentioned biut does for the previous section which makes me suspiscious.

That report, like the other government reports you mention, were gone in to in detail more than once, and you accepted the word endemic was used by the Irish government to describe child abuse in the Irish RCC, and I even looked up dictionaries on a number of occassions to explain the word endemic to you. I am not going back and repeating it all again for you.

I think Festus best explained it to gigino

Zorbas · 20-12-2011 8:58pm

What I cant understand is why the RCC has paid out so much and is still paying out to those victims of of child rape if there was no case to answer according to some posters here.
The release of the previously redacted part of the Cloyne report promises that there is still a long way to go before the church can sit back and think it has dealt with the crimes discovered and those still to be uncovered.
Of course many of us have suspicions about the behaviour of certain priests sill in office which can not be proven but paedophiles can not be cured so there are some that have still not been suspended. Those cannot be named.

The Quadratic Equation · 20-12-2011 9:26pm

Zorbas wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the RCC has paid out so much and is still paying out to those victims of of child rape if there was no case to answer according to some posters here.

I've never seen any poster here make any such argument, or defend the failings of the Church. The Catholic Church consists of 1 billion people, of course abuses and charlatans exists when dealing with such vast numbers of people. What I have seen such posters do, is present the actual facts regarding the actual abuse, in stark contrast to the complete and utter myth hysteria and misinformation peddled as fact by those with no interest whatsoever in the actual facts.

ISAW · 20-12-2011 9:52pm

marienbad wrote: »

Is it any wonder that such vile crimes were allowed continue unhindered for decades when such refusal to confront the truth was ''endemic'' within the organisation and that refusal is obviously alive and well in some quarters.

Well this "endemic" premise isn't established but ???

It is about time you confronted that appalling vista ISAW and stopped blaming everyone else. But you won't and prefer to wallow in your denial.

i note you quote Lord Denning. Sadly Denning was unable to accept something and his premise was the Birmingham Six Guildford Four etc. were guilty and the idea they might be innocent was an appalling miscarriage of justice. Like accusing a priest of something he didn't do?

I think you are more interested in killing the thread than having a discussion.

I am happy to discuss sexual abuse and how it should be dealt with in the church or outsiode of it ( wher the other 99 per cent of non clerical child sex offenders are)

Jerimiah 5.21 comes to mind.

You are saying I am a fool?

I suggest Patrick Pearse might be a better reference with respect to me.
O wise men, riddle me this: what if the dream come true?
What if the dream come true? and if millions unborn shall dwell
In the house that I shaped in my heart, the noble house of my thought?
Lord, I have staked my soul, I have staked the lives of my kin
On the truth of Thy dreadful word. Do not remember my failures,
But remember this my faith

ISAW · 20-12-2011 9:54pm

Zorbas wrote: »

What inside information have you got which gives you the confidence that there has been no rape of children by priests over the last 10 years?

What leap outside logical fallacy have you to "shift the burden" and insist anyone "prove a negative" ? Please look them up.

ISAW · 20-12-2011 10:00pm

Zorbas wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the RCC has paid out so much and is still paying out to those victims of of child rape if there was no case to answer according to some posters here.

WHICH posters? Care to name them? Or do you just accuse and fail to back it up?
Who said there was no case to answer as you claim?

The release of the previously redacted part of the Cloyne report promises that there is still a long way to go before the church can sit back and think it has dealt with the crimes discovered and those still to be uncovered.

Really? Why? What significance has the redacted part?

Of course many of us have suspicions about the behaviour of certain priests sill in office which can not be proven but paedophiles can not be cured so there are some that have still not been suspended. Those cannot be named.

Of course people have suspicions that space aliens, unicorns and the gnomes of Zurich are behind it all as well.

soterpisc · 20-12-2011 11:01pm

Zorbas wrote: »

What I cant understand is why the RCC has paid out so much and is still paying out to those victims of of child rape if there was no case to answer according to some posters here.
The release of the previously redacted part of the Cloyne report promises that there is still a long way to go before the church can sit back and think it has dealt with the crimes discovered and those still to be uncovered.
Of course many of us have suspicions about the behaviour of certain priests sill in office which can not be proven but paedophiles can not be cured so there are some that have still not been suspended. Those cannot be named.

You are crazy.... Of Course there is a case to be had for the victims.. Wrong was done, it needs to be acknowledged....

That is one side of the problem.

The other side, Which you seem to ignore is that, and lets make it clear. There has not been one single new abuse case in the last 10 years. THAT IS A FACT based on the facts available

Suspicions ARE NOT FACTS!!!. and you may have "Suspicions" but you should look at the facts!. If you suspect someone of wrong then in conscience you should report them to the Gards/HSE.

My personal suspicion is that you are a troller who no matter what argument I use will not accept the current facts.

So again Zorbas I ask.. Based on the facts.. Has there been as new case of abuse reported in the last 10 years of abuse committed in the last 10 years.

Simple question YES or NO... Based on facts... not opinions or suspicions.

alex73 · 20-12-2011 11:10pm

soterpisc wrote: »

Has there been as new case of abuse reported in the last 10 years of abuse committed in the last 10 years.

More like 15 years. There are no cases of abuse before the courts of abuse by priests in the last 15 years.(committed that is) The problem has be eradicated. The Majority of the abusers have been laicised or dead some institutionalised away from public.

There are priests who are in the process of being tried but that is about allegations that happened in 80's or early 90's.

There was a case in Sligo, but the court dismissed it because the Girl made the story up for money, Priest is back in the parish, Think it was 3 years ago.

So yes the problem has been dealt with.

Certainly the 90 seminarians in training have it well drilled into them regarding the guidelines and no Bishops is going to Ordain anyone who is not fit for the priesthood. Its not 1950;s Ireland anymore.

Seth Brundle · 20-12-2011 11:27pm

alex73 wrote: »

Certainly the 90 seminarians in training have it well drilled into them regarding the guidelines and no Bishops is going to Ordain anyone who is not fit for the priesthood. Its not 1950;s Ireland anymore.

With respect, with Bishops like Magee in power until relatively recently and Brady sitting on his throne up in Armagh, I'm not convinced by your argument!
You may well be right but I can't see too much of a difference!

soterpisc · 20-12-2011 11:39pm

kbannon wrote: »

With respect, with Bishops like Magee in power until relatively recently and Brady sitting on his throne up in Armagh, I'm not convinced by your argument!
You may well be right but I can't see too much of a difference!

Sure then lets say 40% of Doctors are rapists based of the cases there have been and the cover-ups.

You have to go with the facts to hand... And the facts that there has not been 1 single new case of abuse reported in the last 10 years...

Has there? and there is all the incentive to report such abuse, far more support for victims today than ever before. Government is very much pushing to support victims.

The evidence is there for all to see.. But the bias of some is shaded by suspicion and perception and not by the facts.

Zorbas · 20-12-2011 11:43pm

Very soon we will have a poster saying that there has been no sexual abuse not just in the last 10 years, not just in the last 15 years (already claimed) but in the last century. You want the facts - look them up yourself.

soterpisc · 20-12-2011 11:45pm

Zorbas wrote: »

Very soon we will have a poster saying that there has been no sexual abuse not just in the last 10 years, not just in the last 15 years (already claimed) but in the last century. You want the facts - look them up yourself.

I did. There hasn't been any cases of abuse reported in the last 10 years of abuse committed in the last 10 years. I can stand over my comments.

you can't.

gigino · 21-12-2011 12:35am

ISAW wrote: »

Care to reference it?
You are selectively quoting and you dint even read the report. You got it form someone else's research - probably mine. If you had the reference you could easily show you produced that report first.

Quote " In response to the furore aroused by the media reports, the Irish government commissioned a study which took nine years to complete. On May 20, 2009, the commission released its 2600-page report, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. The commission found that Catholic priests and nuns had terrorised thousands of boys and girls for decades and that government inspectors had failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation. The report characterised rape and molestation as "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland

soterpisc · 21-12-2011 12:43am

gigino wrote: »

Quote " In response to the furore aroused by the media reports, the Irish government commissioned a study which took nine years to complete. On May 20, 2009, the commission released its 2600-page report, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. The commission found that Catholic priests and nuns had terrorised thousands of boys and girls for decades and that government inspectors had failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation. The report characterised rape and molestation as "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland

Any new cases reported in the last 10 years of abuse commited in the last 10 years?

gigino · 21-12-2011 12:48am

In the Roman Catholic church in England and Wales, there are at least 302 sex abuse allegations made against the RC church there since 2003. Unsurprisingly many of the Catholic Priests there have Irish connections, and some priests in England are believed to have been transfered from Ireland. "Ten years ago the Catholic Church in England and Wales was battling against claims that senior members of the clergy had covered up cases of child abuse and moved paedophile priests to parishes despite knowing they were abusers". Channel 4 News has compiled the first map of Catholic abuse detailing some 38 cases across England and Wales where Catholic priests have committed sexual offences against children
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2010/09_10/2010_09_14_Channel4News_CatholicAbuse.htm

Thats in a country where people are reasonably well educated, would have access to social services and the media , access to modern communications etc, aware of dangers etc. Do you think the situation in the 3rd world would be better or worse ?

alex73 · 21-12-2011 1:06am

gigino wrote: »

In the Roman Catholic church in England and Wales, there are at least 302 sex abuse allegations made against the RC church there since 2003. Many of the Catholic Priests there have Irish connections, and some priests in England are believed to have been transfered from Ireland. "Ten years ago the Catholic Church in England and Wales was battling against claims that senior members of the clergy had covered up cases of child abuse and moved paedophile priests to parishes despite knowing they were abusers". Channel 4 News has compiled the first map of Catholic abuse detailing some 38 cases across England and Wales where Catholic priests have committed sexual offences against children
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2010/09_10/2010_09_14_Channel4News_CatholicAbuse.htm

Any new cases of abuse committed by priests in the last 10 years? Just one case to prove your point will do.

The link you quote. (all true) is about abuse that happened over 10 years ago.

So has there been a case in the last 10 years of abuse in the last 10 years?

gigino · 21-12-2011 1:27am

From the link Channel 4 :

Fr Christopher Clonan
High court ruled in 2010 that Clonan abused.
No conviction as he fled the country. Church
has paid out in excess of £1m to his victims to date

I believe there are other cases under investigation now so in say 2015 we can look back with more clarity on 2001 - 2011.

It has to be said clerical child abuse is not the problem it once was because virtually all parents / guardians now - in this part of the world anyway - would not let their children next or near a Priest. Its a pity , because there are a lot of decent priests and I feel sorry for them.

The Quadratic Equation · 21-12-2011 1:33am

gigino wrote: »

It has to be said clerical child abuse is not the problem it once was because virtually all parents / guardians now - in this part of the world anyway - would not let their children next or near a Priest.

Where's your proof it must also have nothing to do with the new child protection polices being implemented properly ?
Why does non clerical child abuse continue in areas where there are no child protection polices ?

gigino wrote: »

Its a pity , because there are a lot of decent priests and I feel sorry for them.

So what % are decent ?

gigino · 21-12-2011 1:48am

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So what % are decent ?

define decent. The poll from Amnesty below found "84% of those surveyed felt society should have done more to prevent abuse.....

A report from Amnesty International has said the abuse of children by priests and church-run institutions in Ireland amounted to torture.
The research, which included an opinion poll, was commissioned following the publication of a number of reports which catalogued decades of abuse.
It found that some of that abuse met the legal definition of torture.
The poll showed 84% of those surveyed felt society should have done more to prevent abuse.
The In Plain Sight report was based on four major inquiries into clerical sex abuse in the Republic - Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne.
The human rights body said that despite the severity of the crimes reported, few perpetrators had been convicted.
There was, the report said, a 'deference to' and 'fear of' the Catholic Church.
The survey carried out by Red C found that half of those polled felt society would prefer to turn a blind eye to child abuse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15057740

There were priests implicated in the Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne reports, and many others who turned a blind eye and / or covered up such abuse.

ISAW · 21-12-2011 2:07am

kbannon wrote: »

With Bishops like ... Brady sitting on his throne up in Armagh, I'm not convinced by your argument!

What did Brady do as a bishop which you find so problematic?
You are aware he only recently became primate ? Like in the last year? So what is it he did in the last year which makes you unconvinced about the eleven years preceding that?

The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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