The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

gigino · 16-12-2011 7:22pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Another country, another devastating scandal for the Catholic Church. This time in the Netherlands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16216174

Thanks for that. Who is surprised that " Tens of thousands of children have suffered sexual abuse in Dutch Catholic institutions since 1945, a report says.
The report by an independent commission said Catholic officials had failed to tackle the widespread abuse at schools, seminaries and orphanages. "

"A Roman Catholic telephone helpline for child sex abuse victims in the Netherlands has seen a significant jump in the number of calls it receives.
Over the past two weeks alone, some 1300 people phoned Hulp en Recht (Help and Right) to report cases of clerical child sex abuse. "
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/huge-jump-clerical-child-abuse-reports

I suppose ISAW will claim only 4 people were molested by the RCC in over 30 years Holland there too, and that represents 00.001 % of the population :rolleyes: lol.

soterpisc · 16-12-2011 7:42pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I hope people don't mind a non-Catholic view on this.

Nowadays, yes, it is. Back in the 70's I don't think it was.

I think somebody needs to erect a confession booth at the Papal cross. A symbol where the Church can enter on one side to confess its corporate sin to God who is waiting patiently with anger and forgiveness on the other. IMO, the RCC is not doing nearly enough and in defending past mistakes they are sewing the seeds of their own rapid demise.

Hi Fanny... Catholic Church not doing enough? Would it not be better to enlighten yourself on what they are doing and they voice an opinion. The Pope has time and again apologized and emphasized with the strongest terms possible that this abuse was wrong. What happened has happened and it was wrong. We can only move forward by making sure this does not happen again, butting the safeguards in place to protect Children or anyone from abuse. Reporting all abuse to local civil authorities.

Dragging up abuse cases and reports from 20 - 30 years ago and presenting them as if they were current failings is wrong. Yes people should know the truth, but they also need to know the balance of the current measures put in place.

So why not inform yourself first.

gigino · 17-12-2011 12:22am

ISAW wrote: »

But how many priests were responsible for these sexual assaults? I would guess again you wont find more than 30 or maybe three times thats close to 100.

Actuallyif you found 30 I would be surprised. Again we would ahve to ask how many priests i Holland .

Given that the report found " " Tens of thousands of children have suffered sexual abuse in Dutch Catholic institutions since 1945", the figure of 30 (- which you say you would be surprised with -) Catholic priests must have been very busy....

gigino · 17-12-2011 12:52am

Perhaps the reason abuse of boys is endemic ( to use the Irish governments own adjective following its investigations reports in to the matter ) in the Roman Catholic church , is because 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation ? And no other outlet for their sexual frustrations ?

Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that 'the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.' 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.

A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7

Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8
Actual surveys:

In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply:

75% said they had a heterosexual orientation;

15% homosexual;

5% bisexual. 9

During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10
Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then perhaps 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

soterpisc · 17-12-2011 1:19am

gigino wrote: »

Perhaps the reason abuse of boys is endemic ( to use the Irish governments own adjective following its investigations reports in to the matter ) in the Roman Catholic church , is because 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation ? And no other outlet for their sexual frustrations ?

Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that 'the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.' 5 In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.
A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. 7
Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. 8
Actual surveys: In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation;15% homosexual;5% bisexual. 9
During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10
Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then perhaps 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

What a complete load of bollox....the reasons for the failings in the church was lack of formation and leadership. Peodophiles you find in all walks of life, 120 were arrested this week, not one a priest. Sending a survey to 3000 priests and not getting a reply from 75% just means that 75% were not bothered getting roped into media speculation..

Its like me in a secular company... Oh he is not married or dating.., oh could he be gay.... Whisper inuendo... Lets deal with facts. Most priests are the for higher moral reasons and are not looking to abuse their status..

gigino · 17-12-2011 2:11am

soterpisc wrote: »

Peodophiles you find in all walks of life

true, but when 00.1% of the population commit 4% of the abuse you have to ask why. Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that 'the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.' In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.....so maybe the fact that this high proprtion of homosexual people who are celibate and who have no other release for their frustrations take it out on boys in their midst.

soterpisc · 17-12-2011 11:04am

gigino wrote: »

true, but when 00.1% of the population commit 4% of the abuse you have to ask why. Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president says that there is such a high percentage of gay priests in the church that he is concerned that 'the priesthood is or is becoming a gay profession.' In his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- he estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.....so maybe the fact that this high proprtion of homosexual people who are celibate and who have no other release for their frustrations take it out on boys in their midst.

An Man who has homosexual tendencies.. but has never acted on them, can become a priest and is likely to never abuse.

Men with Heterosexual and Homosexual tendencies will have the same "frustrations" as you put it. It does not make them evil or unsuitable if they have never offended.

Having worked my hundreds of seminarians I can say hand on heart that the % of Homosexuals its less that 10% when they enter the seminary and less that 2% when ordained. Not every man is the same, but formations, guidance and openness allow a Bishop to determine if he is fit for ordination or not.

What happened in the Church esp in Ireland over the last 50 years, is that the wrong people entered for the wrong reasons. They were not formed and their failing were not seen in the right gravity.

Some of the abusers who got ordained had been abused as kids, had abused others before they entered the seminary and the abuse continued on. The Priesthood did not make them abusers, they were already such, and the Failing of the church was turn a blind eye to the gravity of the abuse.

So the argument that Homosexual frustration of priests is the cause of the abuse is nonsense. The problem is deeper and more complex and has to be studied in the context of the time frame when it happened.

If we look at Ireland today.. There is no abuse by priests. Thats a fact. They are not allowed to be alone with Kids, barriers are put in place to stop opportunities. All allegations are reported in Gards and HSE. Most of the current cases in the courts are for abuse that happened years ago. The 90 odd seminarians in formation in Ireland are not their because they are Homosexual. They are there for the right reasons, to serve Christ.

Put sadly Child Sexual abuse still happens. Kids are still being raped in Ireland and its not by priests.. (like the case in Mayo of the Father who raped his 4 daughters) So Irish society needs to stop the Catholic Witch hunt and focus on the real issues.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 11:23am

There appears to be a widespread tendancy to link homosexuality with paedophilia and child abuse - see some posts above and yesterday on Classic FM.
Must be time to have some awareness raising on this so as to avoid yet another misplaced stereotype.

gigino · 17-12-2011 11:45am

soterpisc wrote: »

There is no abuse by priests. Thats a fact.

I remember one priest saying that 30 years ago. Not only that, he said that any boy who made an allegation against a Priest did not know what he was talking about, and how dare he accuse a man of God. The child would go to hell. At least the Priest did not threaten to killl the boy if he told anyone, unlike the latest RC Priest convicted last week in the North.

I think better to accept reality. There has been widespread abuse by Priests ( endemic the Government called it in their reports ).

When 00.1% of the population commit 4% of the abuse you have to ask why. Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president in his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.
A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation
Perhaps homosexual men, just as heterosexual men, find the unatural state of enforced celibacy ( not typically found in nature ) frustrating , and that is why there has been so many problems in the RC church , and so much cover up ?

ISAW · 17-12-2011 12:45pm

gigino wrote: »

I think all child sex abusers should be reported to the aurthorities,

I think all sex abuse child or adult with very few exceptions ( clerics not being an exception) probably should. In reality though you have been shown, while the church has brought in policies to prevent it happening for the rest of society they aren't reported and when they are reported about a quarter end up being charged and convicted.

if for no other reason that it may reduce the chance of such abuse happening to others.

It may or may not reduce it. As I have pointed out reporting or detection isnt a solution it is treating symptoms and not the cause.

The priests who are responsible fot the 4% of all abuse against boys should be reported just as much as anyone else...

Butthey arent responsible for that. In Ireland fifty years ago some clerics had multiple victims maybe as much as a hundred which would have given them a greater proportion of victims butpriests still made up less than one per cnet of abusers even then when clerical abuse was at its worst. And they were not abusers of young kids but mainly abusers of teenage boys.

.even though priests only make up less than 00.1% of the population.

Wher do you get your figures from?
today priests do not make up 4% of sexual abusers of pre pubescent children. Such abusers make up less than 0.001% per cent of the population I would argue

What do you have to say about the Catholic Priest threatening to kill them if they told anyone about the abuse ?

The same as I would say of the other 99% plus of non catholic priests threathening to kill victims for reporting abuse.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 12:48pm

Are the Catholic Church reviewing their position on celibacy or not? Very few outside of the church priesthood would defend this unatural state and more and more ordinary priests are favouring a more normal life.
There is no need any more to worry about the priesthood passing on their lands and assets at the expense of the church so it defies belief that the change should require such hand-wringing. Perhaps there is a fear that the issue of infallability would arise again but why would the church hirarcy wish to wait until pressure builds rather than taking a pro-active and leadership role to do the obvious?

ISAW · 17-12-2011 12:54pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Another country, another devastating scandal for the Catholic Church. This time in the Netherlands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16216174

funny how you dint post this
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42108748/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/massive-online-pedophile-ring-busted-cops/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/8961855/112-arrested-in-online-paedophile-ring.html

a ring of 70,000 members
How many were RC priests???
None so far. Not even one in 70,000
If one ever surfaces you of course will post all about his trial and ignore the other 69,999!

670 suspects and that 230 abused children in 30 countries
One Spaniard who worked at summer youth camps is suspected of abusing some 100 children over five years
In Britain, police said, the children involved were aged between 7 and 14.

"So far in 22 countries we have identified 269 suspects with 112 arrests," Europol director Rob Wainwright said at a press conference at the agency's headquarters in The Hague.

How many of these were Roman Catholic priests? Or clerics of any kind?

ISAW · 17-12-2011 12:58pm

Zorbas wrote: »

There appears to be a widespread tendancy to link homosexuality with paedophilia and child abuse - see some posts above and yesterday on Classic FM.
Must be time to have some awareness raising on this so as to avoid yet another misplaced stereotype.

I agree. I am posting mostly in relation to pedophilia as sexual abuse of pre pubescent kids.
Sadly the statistics for clerical abuse do however point to the fact thatmost abuse was of older teenagers and mostly of males i.e. ephebophilia which does lend itself to the homosexual in nature argument.

ISAW · 17-12-2011 1:01pm

Zorbas wrote: »

Are the Catholic Church reviewing their position on celibacy or not? Very few outside of the church priesthood would defend this unatural state and more and more ordinary priests are favouring a more normal life.

The Bhudhists don't seem to have a problem with it. Or the shinto's. Or the Eastern Orthodox Christian monks. Or Hari Krisnas or Sikh gurus.

There is no need any more to worry about the priesthood passing on their lands and assets at the expense of the church so it defies belief that the change should require such hand-wringing.

Which is why they now are planning for permanent deacons who are married.

Perhaps there is a fear that the issue of infallability would arise again but why would the church hirarcy wish to wait until pressure builds rather than taking a pro-active and leadership role to do the obvious?

How is it so much better for a parish to have a married priest who has children?

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 1:21pm

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ISAW wrote: »

The Bhudhists don't seem to have a problem with it. Or the shinto's. Or the Eastern Orthodox Christian monks. Or Hari Krisnas or Sikh gurus.
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Lots of religions have different rules - maybe some are better than other (religions I mean)

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Which is why they now are planning for permanent deacons who are married.
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Tought that was because of the need for more man-power?

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How is it so much better for a parish to have a married priest who has children?

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Because they are lessl likely to be sexually frustrated and less likely to rape children perhaps. For sure they would be better able to counsel people with marriage and domestic problems and generally seen to be more approachable because of their normality.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 1:27pm

SORRY - MADE A RIGHT MESS OF THE ABOVE

ISAW wrote: »

The Bhudhists don't seem to have a problem with it. Or the shinto's. Or the Eastern Orthodox Christian monks. Or Hari Krisnas or Sikh gurus.

Lots of religions have different rules - maybe some are better than other (religions I mean)

"Which is why they now are planning for permanent deacons who are married"

Thought that was because of the need for more man-power?.

How is it so much better for a parish to have a married priest who has children?

Because they are less likely to be sexually frustrated and less likely to rape children perhaps. For sure they would be better able to counsel people with marriage and domestic problems and generally seen to be more approachable because of their normality

soterpisc · 17-12-2011 2:05pm

gigino wrote: »

I remember one priest saying that 30 years ago. Not only that, he said that any boy who made an allegation against a Priest did not know what he was talking about, and how dare he accuse a man of God. The child would go to hell. At least the Priest did not threaten to killl the boy if he told anyone, unlike the latest RC Priest convicted last week in the North.

Why don't you quote my Post in Context?

Lets get down to facts... What current cases are there in the courts of abuse cases in say.. 2008, 2009, 2010 this year? None because now, in the present day Irish Priests do no abuse, Why should todays generation of priests have the shadows of generations past..

Why don't you base your arguments on real facts?

gigino · 17-12-2011 2:19pm

ISAW wrote: »

How is it so much better for a parish to have a married priest who has children?

Not to have, but to permit to have. By not allowing the priest to be married ( in recent centuries - this was not allways the case as the rc church changes its rules + policies ) has led to all sorts of problems in the rc church. Loke it or not, there appears to be an above average incidence of homosexuality, child abuse and cover up in the RC church. As explained to you previously, with links, author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president in his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.
A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation. Perhaps homosexual men, just as heterosexual men, find the un-natural state of enforced celibacy ( not typically found in nature ) frustrating , and that is why there has been so many problems in the RC church.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 2:21pm

soterpisc wrote: »

Why don't you quote my Post in Context?

Lets get down to facts... What current cases are there in the courts of abuse cases in say.. 2008, 2009, 2010 this year? None because now, in the present day Irish Priests do no abuse, Why should todays generation of priests have the shadows of generations past..

Why don't you base your arguments on real facts?

How can you claim that in the present day Irish Priests do not abuse?
That assumption or denial is at the root of the problem. It is obviously impossible to make such a claim as cases may still come to light or the Chrurch may still be in protection mode.
The recent disclosures of a Health Boards failures to take action against one of its school dentists who was abusing children is symtomatic of the problems in dealing with these problems in Ireland.
Those who try to protect their beloved church do it no favours by claiming the rape of children has been resolved when it has still to be proven and when it will always be necessary to keep on guard against future abuses when they occur.

soterpisc · 17-12-2011 2:48pm

Zorbas wrote: »

How can you claim that in the present day Irish Priests do not abuse?
That assumption or denial is at the root of the problem.

are you serious. 2011 Ireland is well aware of church failings, Both parents and Priests know what limits are in place.

Also there are virtually know schools run by priests in Ireland where Priests have unsupervised access to kids.

Also there are no current abuse cases before the courts abuse current day priests. ( I am saying abuse that occurs today or in the last 10 years)

So we have to go with the facts as they are (not what popular opinion biased from the media would like us believe)

Many of my friends are priests and they constantly tell me about how careful they have to be around kids, so as not to even arouse suspicion. Altar boys today are never left alone, all contact with kids is supervised. For example a Priest will never have kids over to his house alone, give them lifts etc.. Even if he has never abuse or even inclined do, he simply won't put himself in the position to be even suspected.

So unless you are tell me that there are current cases of abuse before the court then we have to go with the facts, which are that no current abuse cases against priests have been reported. No Bishop can cover them up because it will land him in Jail.

Nobody can say for sure that there is no abuse happening. Unfortunately it tends to only come out once the child understands the abuse in later years. However what we do now is that in the Ireland of 2011 that abuse is not happening, the Church controlled schools and institutions are gone, Very few religious run schools remain. And the church has reformed.

So harassing current day priests for the failings of others is wrong, If they haven't done anything wrong they should not be made to feel guilty.

gigino · 17-12-2011 3:13pm

soterpisc wrote: »

in the present day Irish Priests do no abuse

The RCC church has been saying that for many hundreds of years. Who is to say what Priests have secrets ? When the Pope was here in '79, who would have thought the 2 "right-hand-men" with him in Galway, Bishop Casey + Fr. Cleary, both had secret children ?
Put it another way. There are just over 3000 R. Catholic Priests in the country. Are you watching them 24 hours a day ? Cases may still come to light in years to come, lor the Chrurch may still be in protection mode. If you got 1500 homosexual men from another walk of life and forced them to be celibate for life ( not a very natural thing to do but thats beside the point), discouraged them from " coming out "..... do you think none may privately take advantage of boys if the opportunity arose for example ? Its not unreasonable to come up with the figure of 1500 homosexual Priests in Ireland considering various studies in to the matter e.g. Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president in his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation. Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay. Of course not all Priests are gay and not all child abusers are gay, and not all gay Priests are child abusers. But you cannot say there is no abuse in the Roman Catholic church now. People are more aware now of course and more willing to speak out, instead of being silenced by the Priest - who are on occassion known to even threaten to kill the abused boy if they told anyone. A priest was convicted of that only several days ago. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1214/donaghyj.html Not a very Christian thing for a cleric to do, I'm sure you would agree ?
Who knows what cases may surface in the future.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 3:36pm

gigino wrote: »

. If you got 1500 homosexual men from another walk of life and forced them to be celibate for life ( not a very natural thing to do but thats beside the point), discouraged them from " coming out "..... do you think none may privately take advantage of boys if the opportunity arose for example ?

Yet another poster linking homosexuality with abuse. Do understand that there is a difference between the sexual orientation of a homosexual and a paedobhile.

ISAW · 17-12-2011 3:40pm

Zorbas wrote: »

Because they are less likely to be sexually frustrated and less likely to rape children perhaps. For sure they would be better able to counsel people with marriage and domestic problems and generally seen to be more approachable because of their normality

So you think Buddhist monks are more likely to rape people because they are celibate?
And you think all gynecologists should be married females with children because they will be advising pregnant women so it is preferable they have experience of childbirth. We should dismiss male and single and non parents from gynecology?

ISAW · 17-12-2011 3:59pm

gigino wrote: »

Not to have, but to permit to have. By not allowing the priest to be married ( in recent centuries - this was not allways the case as the rc church changes its rules + policies ) has led to all sorts of problems in the rc church.

But they do allow it. Ther are at least 150 of them. When the Anglicans brought in women priests they left the Anglican Communion and joined the RC church. Many were married as far as I know. About 150 I think. They are permitted. What is not permitted is that priests marry.

Loke it or not, there appears to be an above average incidence of homosexuality, child abuse and cover up in the RC church.

and your "appears to be" is based on WHAT exactly???
I think if you actually look you will find the opposite is true.

As explained to you previously, with links, author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay.

Source? I think this figure is nonsense but even if true so what?

Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president in his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.

Again I doubt that but again so what?

A NBC report on chastity and the clergy found that "anywhere from 23 percent to 58 percent" of the Catholic clergy have a homosexual orientation.

Source?

They claims seem to vary from 10 % to 50%
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm

Cozzens book is well reviewed and seems honest but again so what?
he has asserted that the drop in vocations following Optatam Totius was at least partly deliberate and was part of an attempt to de-clericalize the Church and allow for a more pluralistic clergy.Others have claimed the sexual revolution from 1968 and the strong reaction to Humanae Vitae are more at play.

Perhaps homosexual men, just as heterosexual men, find the un-natural state of enforced celibacy ( not typically found in nature ) frustrating , and that is why there has been so many problems in the RC church.

Perhaps all men find the un-natural ( not typically found in nature) state of not killing those who threathen them or eating those they can dominate frustrating. But that isnt a justification of murder is it?

ISAW · 17-12-2011 4:05pm

Zorbas wrote: »

How can you claim that in the present day Irish Priests do not abuse?

How can you expect people to commit the logical fallacy of "proving a negative"
The claim was that they do abuse . In fact thatthey do it to a much higher level than statistically normal. The claim is bunkum!

That assumption or denial is at the root of the problem. It is obviously impossible to make such a claim as cases may still come to light or the Chrurch may still be in protection mode.

In addition to "shifting the burden" and "proving a negative" you are now off into the fallacy of " argument from ignorance" . Please look thyem up. Maybe the space aliens unicorns and flying spaghetti monster are behind all the abuse after the lack of evidence of them bing involved proves that are doesnt it?

The recent disclosures of a Health Boards failures to take action against one of its school dentists who was abusing children is symtomatic of the problems in dealing with these problems in Ireland.

The recent decasde witnessed over 200 children die in HSE care and ZERO did iun RCC care? Go figure.

Those who try to protect their beloved church do it no favours

Im tryiong to protect rational debate! My personal beliefs or lack of them dont come into it.

by claiming the rape of children has been resolved when it has still to be proven

Where? Where has clerical sexual abuse been proived in any parish with a child protection policy?

and when it will always be necessary to keep on guard against future abuses when they occur.

Which is why they have such policies!

ISAW · 17-12-2011 4:18pm

gigino wrote: »

The RCC church has been saying that for many hundreds of years.

Nonsence! You brought up today ie the last few years. You quoted current stats on numbers of clergy. So the Church 200 years ago could NOT be referring to 2005-2010

Who is to say what Priests have secrets ? When the Pope was here in '79, who would have thought the 2 "right-hand-men" with him in Galway, Bishop Casey + Fr. Cleary, both had secret children ?

that is a "red herring" nothing to do with priests sexually abusing kids!

Put it another way. There are just over 3000 R. Catholic Priests in the country.

And now having made unsupported and off topic allegations about history you hop back to today's stats!

Are you watching them 24 hours a day ? Cases may still come to light in years to come, lor the Chrurch may still be in protection mode.

Please looj up "argument from ignorance" It could also be the unicorns and pixies. You know they are invisible too?

If you got 1500 homosexual men from another walk of life and forced them to be celibate for life ( not a very natural thing to do but thats beside the point), discouraged them from " coming out "..... do you think none may privately take advantage of boys if the opportunity arose for example ?

To be statistically correct you would need a control group of 15000 homosexual men who are not forced to be celibate. But we have some stats.
Ironically when compared to non clergy the tendency to commit sexual abuse is much lower among clergy. We also know the prevalance of homosexual abuse was higher but this may not have been only because they were homosexuals themselves. For example male on male rape in prisons is not commited predominantly by homosexuals.

Its not unreasonable to come up with the figure of 1500 homosexual Priests in Ireland considering various studies in to the matter e.g. Father Donald Cozzens, an author, psychologist, and Catholic seminary president in his book, "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," -- published in the year 2000 -- estimates that 50% of Roman Catholic priests have a homosexual orientation.

So what?

Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were gay.

And others estimated 10 %. But so what?

Of course not all Priests are gay and not all child abusers are gay, and not all gay Priests are child abusers. But you cannot say there is no abuse in the Roman Catholic church now.

I can say that we know for a fact ( statistics are available) that

1. even at the worst of times and highers rates of abuse there were less probability of RC clerics offending than there were of others
2. due to current child protection policies there is a less liklihood of any RC priest offending in the future
3. Currently the level of sexual offences by non priests is infinitly higher i.e. tensof thousands of non priests per year versus ZERO priests.

A priest was convicted of that only several days ago.
Who knows what cases may surface in the future.

Convicted of abuse in the 1980s! Whereas hundreds were arrested for pedophilia also in the last few days for crimes in the last year/ None of them were priests were they? But you conveniently ignored them.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 4:42pm

ISAW wrote: »

Was taking you seriously for a while until I saw your comments about unmarried gynacologists - amazing!

Perhaps you are getting over excited -look at your posts:-

The recent decasde witnessed over 200 children die in HSE care and ZERO did iun RCC care?
Im tryiong to protect rational debate!
Where has clerical sexual abuse been proived

Think a little before going off on the rant perhaps.
Since when do policies provide protection? Perhaps there was a policy to abuse in the past?

ISAW · 17-12-2011 5:17pm

Zorbas wrote: »

ISAW wrote: »

Was taking you seriously for a while until I saw your comments about unmarried gynacologists - amazing!

I asked how having a priest with a family is better for a parish
The point made was that priests should be married with kids and that this was more normal and they have family life and sexual experience to help advise parishoners.

But doctors are not all women who have the experience of having children. So why dismiss all the male doctors and all the women who never have the experience of having children? Apparently it is wise to have priests with a normal family life and the same experience as those they advise but it is considered "amazing" to demand doctors should have the same experience as their patient.

The recent decade witnessed over 200 children die in HSE care and ZERO did in RCC care?

Correct - straight form HSE reports. over 200 dead in their care. In a single decade.
http://hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/services/Children/natreviewpanelannualreport2010.pdf

Go and read it and you will see:
Section 4( page 9 ) is about a review over the last ten years 2000 -10

Total 199 deaths

page 10 - another 30 deaths March 2010 -Dec 2010 but 8 even though in state not church care are not under HSE remit.

Total over 200 deaths as I claimed!

Where has clerical sexual abuse been proved

...that happened in any parish with a child protection policy in the last five to ten years?

Since when do policies provide protection?

Since they provide fail safe mechanisms e.g. no adults present in the same room alone and unobserved with children.

Perhaps there was a policy to abuse in the past?

None ever existed but if you know of one feel free to produce it.

Zorbas · 17-12-2011 6:45pm

ISAW wrote: »

[

Good to be able to read your posts.
Gynaecology v priest ; quiet a difference in pastoral and medical care – do you not agree?. In which case you have introduced a red herring!
Quote “Dec 2010 but 8 even though in state not church care are not under HSE remit.” - There you go again – somewhat incoherent!
HSE deaths – despite policies there are deaths and there is no dispute so far as I know. Not sure how this is relevant to child rape by priests
Protection policies: “ The most common event or setting in which the abuse (by priests) occurred was during a social event (20.4%), while visiting or working at the priest’s home (14.7%), and during travel (17.8%).”. ~That according to comprehensive and reputable research study in the US.
Do you think that a dedicated paedophile would respect policies if such opportunities arose? How will a priest be able to function if he has to be accompanied / supervised at all times? Do you think that the role of the priest can be fulfilled if he is prohibited from counselling / providing pastoral care to anyone on a one to one basis?
The same study in the US found that;
- the largest group of alleged victims (50.9%) was between the ages of 11 and 14
- Less than 13% of allegations were made in the year in which the abuse allegedly began, and more than 25% of the allegations were made more than 30 years after the alleged abuse began
In July, a report by the Irish government said the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland was covering up the sexual abuse of children by priests as recently as 2009, long after it issued guidelines meant to protect children. That report accused the Vatican of tacitly encouraging the cover-up.
An example of a policy to protect the church was the practice of getting those abused to sign statements of confidentiality which precluded them from making such allegations in the future.
Important that this is not about point scoring but about protecting children in the future.

gigino · 17-12-2011 9:01pm

ISAW wrote: »

What is not permitted is that priests marry.

Not now, but it was permitted of course in the early centuries of the church. It was another of thiose things the RC church itself changed.
Of course, given that studies show that 48 to 50% of RC Priests are homosexual, not that many may want to marry others of the opposite sex anyway. Throw in the issue of forced celibacy - not a natural condition in nature - and the culture of keeping sexuality bottled up / no coming out / scandals covered up, and you can perhaps understand why clerical child abuse in the RC church was "endemic", to borrow the word the government used in its conclusions in its reports on the matter. How else can it be explained that 00.1% of the population is responsible for 4% of the abuse ?

The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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