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Christopher Hitchens has died

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Comments

  • #362
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    philologos wrote: »
    RichieC wrote: »
    No surprise philogos is in capitalising on a mans death to spread his brand of mental illness.

    I've argued that Christopher Hitchens was an intelligent man, and a ferocious debater, and that it was a tragedy that he decided to use it in the way that he did.

    Mental illness or not, the question of his atheism was the pink elephant in the room. It was going to come out eventually.

    A tragedy for you and your ilk.


  • #363
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    RichieC wrote: »
    A tragedy for you and your ilk.

    For now yes, in time to come, everyone will acknowledge it as a tragedy in the end.


  • #364
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    philologos wrote: »
    For now yes, in time to come, everyone will acknowledge it as a tragedy in the end.


    what if it was gods plan for Hitchens to die of cancer? still a tragedy? how cam something be tragic if god willed it?


  • #365
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    krudler wrote: »
    what if it was gods plan for Hitchens to die of cancer? still a tragedy? how cam something be tragic if god willed it?

    We're all going to die, that's a certainty. I would predict that it was Hitchen's heavy drinking and smoking that caused his cancer. Man has free will.

    That's also a tragedy.


  • #366
    krudler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    philologos wrote: »
    We're all going to die, that's a certainty. I would predict that it was Hitchen's heavy drinking and smoking that caused his cancer. Man has free will.

    That's also a tragedy.

    so god doesnt have a plan for us all? you dont seem very convinced by your own sky fairy there.


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  • #367
    Dimithy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭Dimithy


    philologos wrote: »
    More akin to the guy who shows up at court, refuses to accept their guilt for being gay and argues with the judge as to what the sentence is - even when the judge has offered leniency if they were honest about what they did and aimed to turn their life around.

    I've added a bit to your reply. Is that more like it?


  • #368
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,294 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    philologos wrote: »
    We're all going to die, that's a certainty. I would predict that it was Hitchen's heavy drinking and smoking that caused his cancer. Man has free will.

    That's also a tragedy.

    I'm presuming you don't mean that it's a tragedy that man has free will, and that you were referring to the probable cause of Hitchens cancer.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #369
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    It's a tragedy that he got cancer. It's not that I desired for him to die.


  • #370
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    philologos wrote: »
    More akin to the guy who shows up at court, refuses to accept their guilt and argues with the judge as to what the sentence is - even when the judge has offered leniency if they were honest about what they did and aimed to turn their life around.
    Or a guy who shows up to a kangaroo court of an unseen judge who stacked the deck in the first place.
    Jesus came into the world to save us from the weight of our sin.
    Sin that this god of yours invented in the first place. Hard theological nut to crack is that one. "Free will" isn't a get out clause either. On the one hand he invented/brought into being everything in existence, yet on the other hand pure evil had nada to do with him. Nope sorry, does not compute and wouldn't compute for a 5 year old child.

    TBH if I was to posit a god within the Judeo/Christian/Islamic setup, I'd be more likely to reckon that one set of early "heretics" got it right. That the god of the universe is actually the devil. He kinda fits the bill. He's murderous(nay genocidal), is a tempter, plays favourites, changes his mind willy nilly, likes to torture people, is vague as hell, demands an all too human worship and love(even if it's utterly unrequited) and if you decide to think "this guy's well out of order" then you're consigned to hell for eternity with no chance of parole. He also has a handy habit of picking equally murderous types as his reps on earth. Lots of deluded, slave, gits in the old testament.* Worship that? Better served asking for some sort of celestial shrink to treat him.






    * Islam really ran with that one. Jesus? Comes across for the most part as a nice enough guy, but at the same time if you look deeper also a bit out there. Asks men, breadwinners at the time to leave their wives and kids. Curses a tree for not bearing fruit. Petulant and nasty streak at times.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #371
    DoireNod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    philologos wrote: »
    I've argued that Christopher Hitchens was an intelligent man, and a ferocious debater, and that it was a tragedy that he decided to use it in the way that he did. I read his "God is not Great" a few years ago, and I found it witty, and humorous, by far the best of the atheist critiques, but ultimately he lived for the wrong cause.
    Obviously you are going to say he lived for the "wrong cause", given that his views differed from yours (I'm assuming). I'm curious about your use of the words "wrong cause". Can you tell me 1)What exactly was his "cause"? and 2) What makes a cause "wrong"?


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  • #372
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    philologos wrote: »
    Do you think that infants have sinned?

    I certainly don't. If one hasn't sinned, how could God reasonably punish them for it? Jesus came into the world to save us from the weight of our sin.

    It's called Original Sin.

    Your know, Limbo etc.

    That's what happens to young unbaptised infants according to your religion.


  • #373
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    philologos wrote: »
    Do you think that infants have sinned?

    I certainly don't. If one hasn't sinned, how could God reasonably punish them for it? Jesus came into the world to save us from the weight of our sin.

    It's called Original Sin.

    Your know, Limbo etc.

    That's what happens to young unbaptised infants according to your religion.

    I think the lord emailed the pope to say this is no longer the case...


  • #374
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Dimithy wrote: »
    I've added a bit to your reply. Is that more like it?

    Apologies. I've misunderstood something here clearly.

    I'm referring to all sin. I'm as guilty as anyone else. Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, I accepted His offer and resolved to follow Him. My faith has been through ups and downs, but ultimately after all these years I'm still following Him.

    It's up to you to decide what you would like to do, but ultimately in Christian thinking at least there will be consequences in terms of what we decide.

    Wibbs: I don't see how the judge has stacked anything up against anyone. Not at least in so far as He offered salvation to us. If we reject it, ultimately as far as I see it we have only ourselves to blame.

    As for God being the devil, that's another argument. I don't even know how one could consistently argue that though. I don't believe that God is vague, murderous, or in the case of Christianity is playing favourites. Actually, in terms of Judaism ultimately he wasn't playing favourites in so far as God used the Jewish people to bring salvation to the world through Jesus.

    As for demanding worship, that's quite a strange point to make. Christianity would argue that it is out of thankfulness for what God has done for us that we praise Him. Honestly, I don't praise Him enough for saving me from sin and condemnation as a result, or for even putting me here in this Creation.

    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    It's called Original Sin.

    Your know, Limbo etc.

    That's what happens to young unbaptised infants according to your religion.

    What religion is that?

    I don't subscribe to original sin as it is extra-Biblical.

    RichieC: As far as I see it, the Pope is a regular joe like you and I. He has no more authoritative a position than anyone else who has the opportunity to find out more about God. Roman Catholics might disagree with me, but that's another discussion.


  • #375
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Or a guy who shows up to a kangaroo court of an unseen judge who stacked the deck in the first place.
    These sum up Christian logic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75883757&postcount=4491


  • #376
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    RichieC wrote: »
    I think the lord emailed the pope to say this is no longer the case...

    So basically it's all cool to change the word of the Lord and who shall receive his forgiveness and why depending on the PR needs of the RCC at the time.

    Wicked.


  • #377
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    We're all going to die, that's a certainty. I would predict that it was Hitchen's heavy drinking and smoking that caused his cancer. Man has free will.

    But there are many people who drink and smoke heavily who dont get cancer. They had free will too. Why is it that God doesnt choose for them to die, I wonder?


  • #378
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    philologos wrote: »
    What religion is that?

    I don't subscribe to original sin as it is extra-Biblical.

    Romans 5:12

    Try reading the bible, it will lead to a better discussion.


  • #379
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    But there are many people who drink and smoke heavily who dont get cancer. They had free will too. Why is it that God doesnt choose for them to die, I wonder?

    We're all going to die. It's just a question of when. The same question pertains to us all as far as I understand.


  • #380
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Romans 5:12

    Try reading the bible, it will lead to a better discussion.

    There's no need to be patronising. I'm up for a respectful discussion, and that's all, if it goes in any other direction I'm out. My basic point has been made. Where I stand on original sin as follows:

    There is no word "original sin" in Romans 5:12. Rather it is discussing the predisposition that we have towards sin. Other passages in the Bible talk of the inclination that humans have towards evil.

    We posted about this on the Christianity forum a few years ago.


  • #381
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    RichieC wrote: »
    I think the lord emailed the pope to say this is no longer the case...

    So basically it's all cool to change the word of the Lord and who shall receive his forgiveness and why depending on the PR needs of the RCC at the time.

    Wicked.

    Just so. They done away with purgetory too. Austerity measures in heavan. It was costing a fortune.


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  • #382
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    We're all going to die. It's just a question of when. The same question pertains to us all as far as I understand.

    You didnt really answer my question!

    (mind you, Im surprised you tried at all given that I was supposed to be on your ignore list....:D)


  • #383
    DoireNod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    FAO Philologos

    When you have time, obviously:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76051601&postcount=371

    Thank you kindly.


  • #384
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower: It's a question as to whether or not God's hand was specifically involved in his getting cancer. I think it was his heavy drinking and smoking. Others who get away with it are lucky, the odds aren't stacked in your favour if you live such a lifestyle.

    As for to what degree God was involved, I can categorically state that I don't know.
    DoireNod wrote: »
    Obviously you are going to say he lived for the "wrong cause", given that his views differed from yours (I'm assuming). I'm curious about your use of the words "wrong cause". Can you tell me 1)What exactly was his "cause"? and 2) What makes a cause "wrong"?

    Sorry for missing this.

    1) Atheism.

    2) If it leads people away from their Creator, if it stops people from knowing what is true about God and if it ultimately prevents people from being saved through Jesus' death on the cross.


  • #385
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    He showed me what real intellect is and how powerful it is. I respected and envied him.


  • #386
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    drkpower: It's a question as to whether or not God's hand was specifically involved in his getting cancer.

    Is it a question?
    Are you suggesting that God might have punished Hitchens for exercising his free will by drinking/smoking, and didnt punish others for exercising their free willl in the exact same way?


  • #387
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I thought my last post to you clarified my position, particularly the last line?


  • #388
    beeroclock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭beeroclock


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    A most vapid expression of ignorance. Be thankful that you have the chance to know his mind even now he's no longer alive.

    RIP.

    A most vapid expression of arrogance is no way to enlighten ignorance


  • #389
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I thought my last post to you clarified my position, particularly the last line?

    Nope; you said you dont know if God did intervene. I am now asking you if he might have intervened.


  • #390
    Saganist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Saganist


    philologos wrote: »
    drkpower: It's a question as to whether or not God's hand was specifically involved in his getting cancer. I think it was his heavy drinking and smoking. Others who get away with it are lucky, the odds aren't stacked in your favour if you live such a lifestyle.

    As for to what degree God was involved, I can categorically state that I don't know.



    Sorry for missing this.

    1) Atheism.

    2) If it leads people away from their Creator, if it stops people from knowing what is true about God and if it ultimately prevents people from being saved through Jesus' death on the cross.
    `

    1) How is Atheism a "cause" ? As far as I was aware Atheism is merely a lack of a belief in God(s)... I think what you meant to say was that Hitch was an anti-theist ? And in my opinion he was a darn good one. We need more like him to wake people up from all the fairytales out there.

    2) This starts on the premise that a Creator exists in the first place. Something I don't believe is the case.


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  • #391
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    philologos wrote: »
    I'm referring to all sin. I'm as guilty as anyone else. Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, I accepted His offer and resolved to follow Him.
    Sin if it exists in the universe was as a concept created by God.

    Wibbs: I don't see how the judge has stacked anything up against anyone. Not at least in so far as He offered salvation to us. If we reject it, ultimately as far as I see it we have only ourselves to blame.
    He creates sin, he creates our ability to be sinners, he tempts us with such sin and then expects us to turn away. That's stacking the deck. It's heavily weighted in the house's favour.
    As for God being the devil, that's another argument. I don't even know how one could consistently argue that though. I don't believe that God is vague, murderous, or in the case of Christianity is playing favourites. Actually, in terms of Judaism ultimately he wasn't playing favourites in so far as God used the Jewish people to bring salvation to the world through Jesus.
    The "chosen people" That would be favouritism then. Ditto for Christian and Muslim thinking. The former position is that if you don't go through Jesus you're damned. Niiiiice. So millions have been damned throughout history because of ignorance born of an accident of birth? Evil bastard. How many did he kill in his "flood"? How many did he kill in Sodom and Gomorrah? He killed lots wife just for looking back. How many Egyptian children did he kill on behalf of Moses? Mass infanticide is pretty non U in fairness. The list is long and old Jehovah is heavy on the smiting and revenge. Evil murderous bastard. Now of course there's feck all evidence that any of that happened, but that's as it's written. Vague? he can't seem to keep his story straight and contradicts himself all the bloody time.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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