Christopher Hitchens has died

smokedeels · 16-12-2011 10:04AM

A great debunker of charlatans and a fantastic wit. I didn't always agree with his political writings but that wasn't important. He encouraged healthy debate based on fact.

A big loss.

Beruthiel · 16-12-2011 10:06AM

One of the few people on this planet for whom I had a great respect for.
I shall miss his latest book coming out and the fact there will be no more new debates to watch.
At times he was a breath of fresh air in a world of insanity.

Mr Benevolent · 16-12-2011 10:12AM

RIP, I don't know anything about him, but I have an uncle dying of esophageal cancer atm and it's not pleasant.

smash · 16-12-2011 10:17AM

I wonder if he's getting slapped around by god, or sitting on his own saying "I told you so"

Sindri · 16-12-2011 10:34AM

desertcircus wrote: »

Taking a cheap and inaccurate shot at my intellect while telling me to be polite. The ironing is delicious. The reason I ridiculed your argument isn't because I'm too dim to comprehend your brilliance, but because the things atheists find ridiculous about god-worship - the immortality, creating the universe, being the source of all moral good, being obsessed with everyone's sex lives - are completely absent from how atheists view Hitchens. We tend to regard Hitch as a great writer and thinker who's now sadly gone. What in that is comparable to belief in the divine?

Seriously like? I never said anything about a belief in the divine, just the similar mental processes common to all people that some have in regard to god and others have in regard to people, like role models, and how I thought this was ironic as it also applied to Hitchens in how some atheists idolised him. Look at the comments on a YouTube video about him. It's all very infantile and it's not very rational.

It was also just a point on how we all experience the same mental processes and use the same coping mechanisms and many of us are giving to things like idealization and idolisation.

It was also a reference to some other militant atheists who don't value his arguments and who don't subscribe to critical thinking but would rather see him Hitch-slap a Young Earth Creationist.

I greatly admire Hitchens and have read a good deal of his books but to some atheists there is a similar thought process in their admiration of Hitchens and a Christians to Jesus. That's ironic don't you think?

I'm sure he would find it humorous.

I don't want to have to explain this to you over and over again on the day a man I greatly admire died and in such a sad fashion.

Really though WTF I thought what you were saying was just hyperbole but did you really think I was actually literally likening Hitchens to theists?

Siuin · 16-12-2011 10:34AM

I loved his book God is Not Great.
Well. At least he knows for sure now.

pragmatic1 · 16-12-2011 10:37AM

Sad day. One of my heros.

desertcircus · 16-12-2011 10:40AM

Sindri wrote: »

desertcircus wrote: »

Taking a cheap and inaccurate shot at my intellect while telling me to be polite. The ironing is delicious. The reason I ridiculed your argument isn't because I'm too dim to comprehend your brilliance, but because the things atheists find ridiculous about god-worship - the immortality, creating the universe, being the source of all moral good, being obsessed with everyone's sex lives - are completely absent from how atheists view Hitchens. We tend to regard Hitch as a great writer and thinker who's now sadly gone. What in that is comparable to belief in the divine?

Seriously like? I never said anything about a belief in the divine, just the similar mental processes common to all people that some have in regard to god and others have in regard to people, like role models, and how I thought this was ironic as it also applied to Hitchens in how some atheists idolised him. Look at the comments on a YouTube video about him. It's all very infantile and it's not very rational.

It was also just a point on how we all experience the same mental processes and use the same coping mechanisms and many of us are giving to things like idealization and idolisation.

It was also a reference to some other militant atheists who don't value his arguments and who don't subscribe to critical thinking but would rather see him Hitch-slap a Young Earth Creationist.

I greatly admire Hitchens and have read a good deal of his books but to some atheists there is a similar thought process in their admiration of Hitchens and a Christians to Jesus. That's ironic don't you think?

I'm sure he would find it humorous.

I don't want to have to explain this to you over and over again on the day a man I greatly admire died and in such a sad fashion.

Really though WTF I thought what you were saying was just hyperbole but did you really think I was actually literally likening Hitchens to theists?

I still don't see your point. I don't think there's anything remotely similar to people admiring Hitch and Christians worshipping Jesus. They're two utterly different things, and I can't see any common ground between them. So I don't see any irony. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Dudess · 16-12-2011 10:46AM

I'm an atheist but didn't have much time for him.

Found him smug but I certainly wouldn't be ascribing his smugness to all atheists.

Dudess · 16-12-2011 10:47AM

SeaSlacker wrote: »

Don't know him. Is he the hero all the artsy essay-writing internet arguers look up to and wish they were? It would explain a lot about the demographic of boards.ie.

What?

Are you off on a "I can't handle people being atheists" one again?

Sam Vimes · 16-12-2011 10:51AM

Sindri wrote: »

I don't want to have to explain this to you over and over again on the day a man I greatly admire died and in such a sad fashion.

I don't think the problem here is with him not understanding you as much as he's disagreeing that admiring someone is in some way comparable to believing that they're the son of god. You would see similar comments from the same people if anyone they admired died but because the deceased is an atheist you feel the need to manufacture irony as if there's something hypocritical about an atheist admiring someone

bnt · 16-12-2011 10:52AM

There's a huge difference between appreciating someone's work and idolising the person themselves. I like Hitchens' work, but I suspect that had I ever met him, the dislike would have been mutual. For starters, I can never get along with smokers, and my drinking rate is at the low end of "moderation".

But that's fine, since no-one has ever asked that I like the guy. It's about as far as you can get from the Catholic fetishisation of Jesus' internal organs. If you go over to the A&A forum and read the thread there, you'll see that everyone's expressing their respect and appreciation in terms of the guy's work. The Hitch may be gone, but his work is still here, and it isn't going anywhere. :cool:

Sindri · 16-12-2011 10:56AM

desertcircus wrote: »

I still don't see your point. I don't think there's anything remotely similar to people admiring Hitch and Christians worshipping Jesus. They're two utterly different things, and I can't see any common ground between them. So I don't see any irony. We'll have to agree to disagree.

It's the thought process that's similar. Admiration and worship while two different verbs follow similar paths in the brain. They serve similar functions.

To clarify, some atheists admiration for Hitchens is like theists for Jesus or God but only the atheists who have romanticised him. That's the irony. Because psychologically they are not that different.

It's very complex and difficult to explain and I haven't slept in quite while so you'll have to forgive me.

Snakeblood · 16-12-2011 10:57AM

Sindri wrote: »

It's the thought process that's similar. Admiration and worship while two different verbs follow similar paths in the brain. They serve similar functions.

To clarify, some atheists admiration for Hitchens is like theists for Jesus or God but only the atheists who have romanticised him. That's the irony. Because psychologically they are not that different.

It's very complex and difficult to explain and I haven't slept in quite while so you'll have to forgive me.

Like faith and opinion are the same?

Dudess · 16-12-2011 10:58AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Sindri wrote: »

I don't want to have to explain this to you over and over again on the day a man I greatly admire died and in such a sad fashion.

I don't think the problem here is with him not understanding you as much as he's disagreeing that admiring someone is in some way comparable to believing that they're the son of god. You would see similar comments from the same people if anyone they admired died but because the deceased is an atheist you feel the need to manufacture irony as if there's something hypocritical about an atheist admiring someone

Yep. Reeks of "I'm an atheist but I want to show how open-minded I am so I'll come up with some ludicrous way to ridicule atheists". We get it - some atheists are dicks to religious people, no arguments there.

Yahew · 16-12-2011 11:01AM

af_thefragile wrote: »

He was a mega-arrogant messiah of the atheists.
And was pretty right-wing at the same time.

He considered himself a Marxist for much of his life. His break with the canonical Left was regarding the War in Iraq, and he had been critical of the way it turned out.

Some form of Left-wingers are, in fact, a cult. It's actually a post-Christian cult ( something atheists argue themselves when they claim Communism was religious), and has some Christian pathologies - like guilt you are born with. ( i.e. white guilt, effectively original sin). It is based on Christian ideas of equality, Hinduism would not have produced socialism. It has it's prophets, main and mini. Marx, and Marcuse.

To those of us who are in the centre, however, nothing is more symptomatic of the cultish of the Left than their ability to cast people out. You either believe the canon on everything, or you are cast out like a heretic.

Hitchens was a left wing contrarian and original thinker.

Sindri · 16-12-2011 11:04AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I don't think the problem here is with him not understanding you as much as he's disagreeing that admiring someone is in some way comparable to believing that they're the son of god. You would see similar comments from the same people if anyone they admired died but because the deceased is an atheist you feel the need to manufacture irony as if there's something hypocritical about an atheist admiring someone

Romanticising Hitchens and Idolising Jesus. It's just an observation I have made, not all people object to the existence of a god on intellectual grounds and it's that sort of atheist who would do so.

Romanticising and idolising are what is similar between the two ONLY IF an atheists actually does so. I said some atheists. I think the reason it is not understood is due to you not being able to comprehend it and that's said with all respect. The atheists (you) who object to what I have said do so because you do not feel as I describe and cannot relate to it, neither do I, and that is why it is hard to imagine someone feeling so, but I have observed others who do and I found that ironic.

AnnyHallsal · 16-12-2011 11:07AM

I think Salman Rushdie said it best:

"Goodbye, my beloved friend. A great voice falls silent. A great heart stops. Christopher Hitchens, April 13, 1949-December 15, 2011."

Truly saddened. Even when I disagreed with him, a rare voice always worth hearing. And his beautiful prose.

Yahew · 16-12-2011 11:08AM

Sindri is right of course. In fact atheists say that Communism was religious because of the type of belief, its faith based reasoning etc. Communists would probably have argued that they didn't believe in divine presence, so how can they be religious?

Not that Hitchens was a religious-type leftist.

Standard Toaster · 16-12-2011 11:08AM

I'll pray for him. :pac:

Hitchens single handedly restored my respect for humanity every time he opened his mouth.

RIP Hitch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQHxkX-tyYU

Chuck Stone · 16-12-2011 11:09AM

I would love to have a small percentage of the clarity of thought Hitchens displayed.

He's someone I admired and I don't do admiration much.

Yahew · 16-12-2011 11:12AM

Actually his anti-Catholicism is not his finest hour, and that debate was largely badly argued and historically in accurate, playing to a baying mob. Given England's history, I find anti-Catholicism there a bit off.

Sam Vimes · 16-12-2011 11:15AM

Sindri wrote: »

Romanticising Hitchens and Idolising Jesus. It's just an observation I have made, not all people object to the existence of a god on intellectual grounds and it's that sort of atheist who would do so.

Romanticising and idolising are what is similar between the two ONLY IF an atheists actually does so. I said some atheists. I think the reason it is not understood is due to you not being able to comprehend it and that's said with all respect. The atheists (you) who object to what I have said do so because you do not feel as I describe and cannot relate to it, neither do I, and that is why it is hard to imagine someone feeling so, but I have observed others who do and I found that ironic.

Nope, I understand exactly what you're saying, I just disagree with you. When atheists criticise theists it's invariably not for their admiration of jesus' words (which were admirable for the most part), it's for believing all the supernatural claims. There is nothing ironic about an atheist admiring or romanticing someone. The only irony would be if they claimed that Hitchens had supernatural powers while criticising the same belief in others

Sindri · 16-12-2011 11:26AM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Nope, I understand exactly what you're saying, I just disagree with you. When atheists criticise theists it's invariably not for their admiration of jesus' words (which were admirable for the most part), it's for believing all the supernatural claims. There is nothing ironic about an atheist admiring or romanticing someone. The only irony would be if they claimed that Hitchens had supernatural powers while criticising the same belief in others

Its about psychology. Basically were all the same and we all think very similarly. We all have same mechanisms to hand. Its not to do with religion.

A theists has a romantic view of their religion, to cope to the cognitive dissonance if they actually entertained critical thoughts of it and can romanticise, idealise, compartmentalise as much as they wish as well as for a variety of other reasons.

But so can an atheist, the point is not the semantics of religion but the similar thought process one has when they can over compensate for Hitchens like a theist can over compensates for religion.

Anyway it doesn't matter its very esoteric and to explain it fully would take a crash course in psychology.

Cú Giobach · 16-12-2011 11:27AM

seanybiker wrote: »

To be honest, as a non believer, I don't class myself as an atheist because atheists on here and the few that I know on real life, wreck my bulb. .

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god, not someone who mouths off about it.
Someone could just as easily say, "Although I steal from people I don't class myself as a thief, because all the thieves I know are assholes", not very logical at all at all.

AnnyHallsal · 16-12-2011 11:30AM

Hitchens was more than his atheism. His volumes of essays are, today, peerless. Love, Poetry & War, Arguably etc.

Sindri · 16-12-2011 11:35AM

Dudess wrote: »

Yep. Reeks of "I'm an atheist but I want to show how open-minded I am so I'll come up with some ludicrous way to ridicule atheists". We get it - some atheists are dicks to religious people, no arguments there.

What are you on about?

Sam Vimes · 16-12-2011 11:40AM

Sindri wrote: »

Its about psychology. Basically were all the same and we all think very similarly. We all have same mechanisms to hand. Its not to do with religion.

A theists has a romantic view of their religion, to cope to the cognitive dissonance if they actually entertained critical thoughts of it and can romanticise, idealise, compartmentalise as much as they wish as well as for a variety of other reasons.

But so can an atheist, the point is not the semantics of religion but the similar thought process one has when they can over compensate for Hitchens like a theist can over compensates for religion.

Anyway it doesn't matter its very esoteric and to explain it fully would take a crash course in psychology.

Yes, again, I understand what you're saying. This is not a problem of comprehension. I think you're stretching the definition of both admiration and idolisation in an attempt to find irony where there is none. But we're not going to agree so let's leave it at that

RIP Christopher

hooradiation · 16-12-2011 11:40AM

Requiescat in pace.

RayM · 16-12-2011 12:12PM

I don't think I've ever felt this sad about the death of a famous person.

Selfishly, I hope he left behind a lot of unpublished material.

Christopher Hitchens has died

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