Is it a good thing that the Gardai are not armed?

Wile E. Coyote · 15-12-2011 09:26PM

Galtee wrote: »

I wonder how many such situations there have been if ever where an unarmed guard has been shot?

Wasn't there a motorcycle guard shot a couple of years ago in Dublin after pulling over a car?

EDIT: here's the link
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shot-garda-lured-into-trap-by-evil-crime-gang-1088808.html

bedrock#1 · 15-12-2011 09:41PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Meh. Break a few eggs to make an omelette.

As long as it's not yours....

AeoNGriM · 15-12-2011 10:20PM

Antomus Prime wrote: »

Today they survive as soldiers of fortune........... If you have a problem, and If you can find them.......... maybe you can hire, The A-Team!!!!

But as awesome as they are they cant see into the future like Cruise did in minority report

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGSQPqvlRbg

firefly08 · 15-12-2011 11:10PM

A few myths that have cropped up so far:

-The Guards are more likely to be shot if they are armed. The truth is, they have often been shot anyway, while unarmed. What makes a copper less likely to be shot is a lack of determination to catch the criminal. The Guards are often afraid to confront ciminals, because they have no way of defending themselves. I have seen it myself, and read of plenty more examples. Give them a way to defend themselves, and they will crack down harder. There will be more violence - but that is not because they've been armed, it will be because they are doing the job they're paid to do, more thoroughly.

-They can just use non-lethal weapons, or fire warning shots. It just doesn't work that way unfortunately. Bean-bags, plastic bullets, pepper spray, tasers etc. These have all been proven to be less effective in incapacitating people than guns. Firing warning shots just encourages the other guy to shoot back, and shooting to wound is extremely difficult - chances are you will miss, and be killed when he fires back.

-If the Guards carried guns, that would give the criminals something to think about. It is plain to see, from other countries around the world, that armed police do not present much of a deterrent. For about 99% of crimes, they won't be there when it happens, so being armed is irrelevant. American cops are armed, take no crap from anyone, and never back down, and yet look how much crime they have. The point of the gun is not as a symbol of authority or a deterrent. It's about giving the cop a fighting chance. After all, we're asking them to go into harms way on our behalf. Without being armed, they will either (a) get shot more often or (b) not be inclined to put themselves in harm's way.

-The Mini-14 can't hit a barn - This myth is entirely the fault of the A-Team, who managed to fire thousands of rounds and apparently never hit anyone :eek:

Turner · 15-12-2011 11:22PM

The reason that all Gardai are not armed is down to money.

3700 of them are armed at the moment. Out of 14,000.

and they want to cut most of them too, due to no more money.

15-12-2011 11:26PM

is it a good thing gardai are not armed?
well, about a quarter of them actually are so i'll assume you mean the uniformed gardai?

yes, they do get shot, a motorcyclist was shot a few years ago and a sergeant was shot in crumlin a while before that.

i dont think there is any reason to believe that arming unformed gardai would stop this kind of thing happening, imo it would only raise the chances of uniformed gardai being shot at.

if your a criminal & you believe that the uniform guard in front of you is going to shoot you, chances are you will shoot him.

it would only lead to more violence i think and lots more people being shot, gardai, criminals and perhaps even innocent bystanders.

firefly08 · 15-12-2011 11:27PM

The reason that all Gardai are not armed is down to money.

3700 of them are armed at the moment. Out of 14,000.

and they want to cut most of them too, due to no more money.

Good point...but I bet you'd see some big changes if the system was simply changed to allow them the option of carrying a firearm, at their own expense. I'd be very surprised if many if of them did not jump at the chance.

Turner · 15-12-2011 11:30PM

Motorcyclists and Gardai operating alone should definitely be armed. Also with less lethal too.

firefly08 · 15-12-2011 11:37PM

if your a criminal & you believe that the uniform guard in front of you is going to shoot you, chances are you will shoot him.

This is a logical fallacy. The Guard would not be shooting unless his own life was in danger, due to a decision the criminal has already made. Why do criminals routinely carry weapons even though they know they Guards aren't armed? The reason criminals attack the Guards is because they think they will be caught, not because they think they will be killed.

Therefore, if you are not prepared to let the Guards go one step further, it is a loosing battle from the start. The message we're sending is: if you commit a crime, we'll chase you. If you curse at us, we'll curse back. If you fight us, we'll fight back. But if you pull a weapon...we'll back down. And if we don't, well hey, you can always stab or shoot us before backup arrives.

MagicSean · 16-12-2011 12:06AM

Gardai shouldn't all be armed. All gardai should be trained in the use of firearms and their should be a weapon store in each station for emergency situations. Maybe a lockbox in each car too.

working fool · 16-12-2011 12:06AM

sure we couldent trust them to put a bloke in a ford focus properly ?
he stole the bloddy thing and headed north in it .
imagine if these eejits had guns on them ?

MagicSean · 16-12-2011 12:09AM

working fool wrote: »

sure we couldent trust them to put a bloke in a ford focus properly ?
he stole the bloddy thing and headed north in it .
imagine if these eejits had guns on them ?

Apt username

firefly08 · 16-12-2011 12:10AM

imagine if these eejits had guns on them ?

Seems to be they could have stopped him handy enough in that case

All joking aside, there's a good point there. But you don't just go handing out guns and leave it at that. It would have to become part of the standard training. Can't pass the qualification? Then you can't be a Guard. It might change the threshold for qualifying as a Guard somewhat, but that wouldn't be a bad thing either.

FGR · 16-12-2011 12:44AM

argosy2006 wrote: »

Irish force are not very professional, Things get personal with the scumbags,They take things personally ,when they should be more pro
And if there were armed they would shoot alot of them,

Evidence please?

Manic Moran · 16-12-2011 06:59AM

MagicSean wrote: »

Gardai shouldn't all be armed. All gardai should be trained in the use of firearms and their should be a weapon store in each station for emergency situations. Maybe a lockbox in each car too.

So, out of curiousity, you suggest that the Garda ask the nice gentleman to be a good lad and stay there for a few minutes while he goes to the back of the car and unlocks the box to pull out his firearm, and he'll be back for the shootout in a minute or two?

You lose the keys to your house - on returning home that evening you decide to let yourself in through the back door

What is the point of locking the front door if you leave the back door unlocked? Deserve to be shot for stupidity....

He follows you over the wall, he's nervous, carrying a gun now drawn. You have something in your hand he perceives to be a weapon and shoots you...

What then?

In the US, it's fair game: The homeowner can get away with shooting the cop for hopping into his back yard thinking he's chasing a suspect if the homeowner thinks he's a miscreant, at least in some states. Can't find the link to the case offhand. However, in your hypothetical, compliance with instruction such as dropping the item in your hand (Obviously not your keys, maybe a cellphone) would probably not be a terminal move.

NTM

shampoosuicide · 16-12-2011 07:03AM

i wouldn't say so no.and the way society is heading, it won't be the case that they're unarmed for much longer.

firefly08 · 16-12-2011 07:24AM

Funny I've just been watching this documentary about the rise of serious crime in Ireland in the 60s.

I can't help but think what a different place Ireland would be now if the Guards had been able to shoot back. Instead these ****ers robbed banks and shot unarmed people with impunity for decades. By the time the Garda ERU came into action in the 90s these people had one hell of a head start.

MagicSean · 16-12-2011 08:25AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

So, out of curiousity, you suggest that the Garda ask the nice gentleman to be a good lad and stay there for a few minutes while he goes to the back of the car and unlocks the box to pull out his firearm, and he'll be back for the shootout in a minute or two?

What is the point of locking the front door if you leave the back door unlocked? Deserve to be shot for stupidity....

In the US, it's fair game: The homeowner can get away with shooting the cop for hopping into his back yard thinking he's chasing a suspect if the homeowner thinks he's a miscreant, at least in some states. Can't find the link to the case offhand. However, in your hypothetical, compliance with instruction such as dropping the item in your hand (Obviously not your keys, maybe a cellphone) would probably not be a terminal move.

NTM

A shoot out? What country are you in? There are very few occasions when gardai would need a firearm.

Manic Moran · 16-12-2011 08:30AM

firefly08 wrote: »

Funny I've just been watching this documentary about the rise of serious crime in Ireland in the 60s.

I can't help but think what a different place Ireland would be now if the Guards had been able to shoot back. Instead these ****ers robbed banks and shot unarmed people with impunity for decades. By the time the Garda ERU came into action in the 90s these people had one hell of a head start.

Thanks for the link. I'll be spending some time watching that, first episode looks good.

I like the bit in the 60s broadcast about how gun shops in Ireland were becoming redundant due to the ability to buy rods and guns in all sorts of places, and no longer after 'long consultation with a specialist.' People forget (or if they're younger, just don't realise) how prevalent guns were in Ireland before the more recent violent times.

The actions of the Saor Eire group mentioned in the documentary (the first group of armed bank robbers since WWII, not bad in the late 1960s) should be an interesting learning point: As soon as they identified Gardai (of course, unarmed), they shot at them.

NTM

EPointer=Birdss · 16-12-2011 10:35AM

Should he driver & the robber have been shot. Without being there, who knows. Were the guards within their rights to make a call, of course. Have u sympathy for the scumbag driving whilst on drugs, defying authority & on liable to speed off & kill some 1 crossing the road, fck no!
Similarly have I sympathy for another scumbag who thinks bringing a knife into a shop, obviously waving it at someone, then stealing from society, again fk no! Imagine it was your kid crossing the road or your wife having a knife in her face! You lose all rights once you break basic laws of human behaviour IMO.
Should guards be allowed carry - no chance. The majority are power tripped morons which tarnish the decent ones.
I've seen them show off in front of female guards, abuse people like the chap here who wrestling, & generally act the ass at checkpoints.
I've seen a member of the armed response take a shot gun off someone in a room full of people & walk through them with it pointed at body level. 1st rule of gun safety is check is the thing loaded. He was quite pink when it was pointed out to him by a regular Joe soap.
However I agree we do need an armed response unit armed as we have but not the regular flat foot.

Ellis Dee · 16-12-2011 10:44AM

Actually, a lot of them are armed. I was in Athy years ago just after a shootout between the Gardai and some bank raiders from Dublin. The toll: 1 dead, about nine wounded - including three Gardai and several bank staff.:rolleyes:

At first, predictably, it was claimed that the bank robbers had opened fire and the Gardai had returned it. It was only after video footage taken by a man who had - coincidentally - been buying a video camera and gone out into the street to try it out was released to RTE that it emerged the robbers hadn't fired a single shot.:eek:

The last thing we need in this country is more trigger-happy cops blasting all round them. What we need much more is proper supervision of the Gardai by a body like the Garda Ombudsman, but with real powers to oversee the legality of their actions.:cool:

seamus · 16-12-2011 11:02AM

kincsem wrote: »

This supports not arming Gardai.

3 cases in the 1940's? Really? Times when the last or second-last son were sent to Templemore not because they wanted to be a Guard, but because they weren't to inherit the family farm? Times when guys on protection duty would have been routinely drunk out of pure boredom?
Times when corruption and conflict with the Gardai was rife because the population still didn't trust them after the civil war?

Yeah, that's a great argument for not arming Gardai in 2011.

I don't see any reason to arm Gardai, but 3 cases of misuse in the 1940s is completely irrelevant. I know a couple of Gardai who carry weapons. They're your normal guys, laughing and joking, taking the piss out of scumbags and the stupid stuff they do when they're arrested.
But the gun is serious business. There is no messing or joking about it under any circumstances. They just don't stand for it.

Is it a good thing that the Gardai are not armed?

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