Primary School Patronage - trouble ahead

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 02:21PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Tax on income & revenue. The Catholic Church rakes in millions every year in this country & doesn't pay a red cent on it to the taxman due to Ireland's rather lax laws around the status of so called charities.

Ok - so on collections and land-sales and things like that?

Well, by all means, I'd have no trouble at all with reviewing how charities and not-for-profits, etc are taxed.

Just as long as we don't dream up a "let's tax the charaties we don't like" tax.
Guide dogs....cute.....no tax. Churches....booo...hissss.....tax them. Catholic Guide Dogs Guild of Co. Leitrim......oooohhh I'm torn.

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 02:22PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You, no doubt are doing the same.

And that's the problem.

Mandatory funding of an organisation I, and many others, don't want to fund.

I've no problem paying for the education of children but if the Church wants to maintain Catholic schools they can afford it better than we can.

Churches....booo...hissss.....tax them

Churches aren't charities. They're churches.

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 02:28PM

only around 15% support the mandatory indoctrination of children in primary schools

Yeah - if someone asked me if I wanted that I'd vote no too. It sounds absolutely horrible.

Ask people a neutral question (or a pro-religion in schools leaning question) and you'd no doubt get a differnt response.

MagicMarker · 15-12-2011 02:30PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah - if someone asked me if I wanted that I'd vote no too. It sounds absolutely horrible.

Ask people a neutral question (or a pro-religion in schools leaning question) and you'd no doubt get a differnt response.

Ask people a different question and you'd get a different response?

Aren't you quite the genius.

aujopimur · 15-12-2011 02:31PM

STOP, STOP this is making baby jesus cry.

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 02:31PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah - if someone asked me if I wanted that I'd vote no too. It sounds absolutely horrible.

Ask people a neutral question (or a pro-religion in schools leaning question) and you'd no doubt get a differnt response.

"Mandatory Indoctrination" wasn't specifically worded to sound bad, that's what it is. I don't think you can word it in anyway that sounds positive, because it's not positive.

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 02:31PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Churches aren't charities. They're churches.

The Charities Section of the Revenue Commisioners begs to differ.

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 02:33PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The Charities Section of the Revenue Commisioners begs to differ.

No doubt, hence the original point.

I'm sensing circular logic here.

Dan133269 · 15-12-2011 02:43PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Likewise there are those (I am one) who actually wants their children to attend a Catholic (or other religious) school - and are active members of their local church, whose bishop is patron of the school.

Other religious school? Tell us how you would feel OP, if the only school in your area was a Protestant or Muslim school for the sake of argument - you had a choice between sending your child to that school or driving them 1 1/2 hours each way everyday to a different school in a different city which you found suitable.

And if you choose to send your child to the Protestant or Muslim school, you would have to get them baptised or initiated as such, going directly against your wishes for them as a parent, just so that Protestant or Muslim school would accept them. Would you be happy with that?

robindch · 15-12-2011 02:45PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think there'll be trouble ahead.

There will be trouble ahead, but only if the religious establishment chooses to cause it, or at least, certain parts of it. I believe most people want a smooth, uncomplicated transfer of power.

At the moment, the Vatican and its local representatives are able to control whether or not a child living in Ireland receives an education. Outside of this right to veto, the input of the church in this country into most Irish schools is minimal.

Now, if the Vatican wishes to pay to run schools in this country -- and I'm hard pressed to think of an organization less suited to the care of children -- then they do have a right to set up and pay for these schools themselves. And while I'd have expected parents to have more respect for their children's minds, the same goes for catholic parents who wish to outsource the religious indoctrination of their children. If the religious pay, then the religious can control.

What the church has no right to do is (a) to take state money and use it to indoctrinate children; (b) to deny education to the kids of parents who are not members of their religious club and (c) to apply subtle and non-subtle social pressure to force parents and children to conform to its requirements.

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 02:47PM

Seachmall wrote: »

"Mandatory Indoctrination" wasn't specifically worded to sound bad, that's what it is. I don't think you can word it in anyway that sounds positive, because it's not positive.

Question: Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence while expanding on the heritage of the faith community of which they are part?

There - a perfectly biased question. Like the mandatory indoctrination one. :-) Simples

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 02:57PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Question: Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence while expanding on the heritage of the faith community of which they are part?

There - a perfectly biased question. Like the mandatory indoctrination one. :-) Simples

Granted, you could dance around what it is to make it sound positive.

However "Mandatory Indoctrination" is the shortest and most accurate way to describe the practice.

Also, that wasn't the wording the paper.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 15-12-2011 03:09PM

I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 03:11PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

I don't think it's up to the school to teach your kids moral behavior, that's more of a parent's job.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-12-2011 03:12PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Question: Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence while expanding on the heritage of the faith community of which they are part?

No. Howerer, if you phrase it:
"Would you like your child to be educated in a wholesome environment that aimed for academic as well as personal excellence "
then yes.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

I would argue that you could do this just as well as the church.

Dan133269 · 15-12-2011 03:18PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

What values are they?
Where do they come from in the Christian faith? I mean do they come from the holy text, words of members of the Church, actions of members of the church? Official church teaching as communicated by its leader or what?

robindch · 15-12-2011 03:20PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

Like the idea that your child will burn in hell if he/she isn't good and doesn't believe the stories that the priest tells?

MagicMarker · 15-12-2011 03:25PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'll send my children to a Catholic school, I'm not particularly religious myself but I feel Christian values are well worth instilling in a child from an early age.

Values like homosexuality is wrong?

Can you tell us what values are taught in a Catholic school that aren't/can't be taught in a secular school?

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 03:25PM

Dan133269 wrote: »

Other religious school? Tell us how you would feel OP, if the only school in your area was a Protestant or Muslim school for the sake of argument - you had a choice between sending your child to that school or driving them 1 1/2 hours each way everyday to a different school in a different city which you found suitable.

I'd be dissapointed that there wasn't a school with a catholic ethos in my locality. Then I'd get together with my catholic buddies and look at how we could establish a school to meet our requirements.

If the numbers just weren't right - or, if I didn't have the energy and time to try and establish a school that fit the needs of my community then I'd probably send my child to the Protestant school as it would be a close fit and would teach my child about his/her particular brand of christianity at home or at church.

Next prefernece would be the Muslim school.

I already drive 1 hr + every day for work. Would be quite happy with a good local school - even if it wasn't my first preference.

Dan133269 wrote: »

And if you choose to send your child to the Protestant or Muslim school, you would have to get them baptised or initiated as such, going directly against your wishes for them as a parent, just so that Protestant or Muslim school would accept them. Would you be happy with that?

No. I don't think those churches or schools would be either.

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 03:32PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you tell us what values are taught in a Catholic school that aren't/can't be taught in a secular school?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The above creed is a good summary.

I make no bones about it - I'd prefer a catholic education for my child.

MagicMarker · 15-12-2011 03:34PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The above creed is a good summary.

I make no bones about it - I'd prefer a catholic education for my child.

Care to summarize the summary?

robindch · 15-12-2011 03:35PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

would teach my child about his/her particular brand of christianity at home or at church.

"His/her particular brand"?

You do realize that it's not their "brand" but yours?

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 03:39PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Would be quite happy with a good local school - even if it wasn't my first preference.

You wouldn't mind having an Imam come into class talking about Islamic tradition and other children partaking in Salat or Sawm while asking your child to sit quietly or leave the room?

I'd prefer a catholic education for my child.

And that's your choice, but you and you alone should pay for that. Not me, not the State.

Do you disagree with that?

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 03:41PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Care to summarize the summary?

OK. Although it is, in itself, a summary of the roman catholic faith so I would be leaving bits out....

Essentially:

I believe in God (maker of heaven and earth, etc), Jesus Christ (..was made man..died...buried...rose from the dead...will come again to judge the living and the dead), The Holy Spirit (lord, giver of life), the holy catholic church, communion of saints, forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

Pretty broad brush strokes but that's it.

You're free to call it gibberish and nonsense but I'd prefer if you didn't

Osgoodisgood · 15-12-2011 03:44PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I believe in God (maker of heaven and earth, etc), Jesus Christ (..was made man..died...buried...rose from the dead...will come again to judge the living and the dead), The Holy Spirit (lord, giver of life), the holy catholic church, communion of saints, forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

Pretty broad brush strokes but that's it.

You're free to call it gibberish and nonsense but I'd prefer if you didn't

Hmmmmmm
.
.
.
.
Twaddle?:p

MagicMarker · 15-12-2011 03:44PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

OK. Although it is, in itself, a summary of the roman catholic faith so I would be leaving bits out....

Essentially:

I believe in God (maker of heaven and earth, etc), Jesus Christ (..was made man..died...buried...rose from the dead...will come again to judge the living and the dead), The Holy Spirit (lord, giver of life), the holy catholic church, communion of saints, forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

Pretty broad brush strokes but that's it.

You're free to call it gibberish and nonsense but I'd prefer if you didn't

So when I asked what values could be taught in a catholic school that can't be taught in a secular school you just decided to state the obvious?

Other than believing in god almight and the zombie jesus, what actual relevant values to our everyday lives can be taught in a catholic school compared to a secular school?

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 03:48PM

Seachmall wrote: »

You wouldn't mind having an Imam come into class talking about Islamic tradition and other children partaking in Salat or Sawm while asking your child to sit quietly or leave the room?

No, not at all. Although, to be fair, like others have commented here, I'd prefer if they were given something constructive to do while they were chillaxing.

Seachmall wrote: »

And that's your choice, but you and you alone should pay for that. Not me, not the State.

Do you disagree with that?

I disagree 100%. That's our fundamental difference maybe. I think my taxes should be used to support and affirm the individual choices of parents on the type of schools they want - any type - not just my own preference (secular, catholic, etc)

Seachmall · 15-12-2011 03:52PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

No, not at all. Although, to be fair, like others have commented here, I'd prefer if they were given something constructive to do while they were chillaxing.

Yeah, it's not like it'd have any negative affect on the child, right?

I disagree 100%. That's our fundamental difference maybe. I think my taxes should be used to support and affirm the individual choices of parents on the type of schools they want - any type - not just my own preference (secular, catholic, etc)

Huh, that's depressing.

It's not the state's job to teach your kids your particular brand of religion. That's your job, and you shouldn't expect others to pay for it.

tricky D · 15-12-2011 03:56PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Churches aren't charities. They're churches.

They're more than that, they're belief businesses, paying no tax, getting a subsidy for indocrination and an almost blank cheque for previous immoral transgressions (at last count, to the tune of €1.22 billion). All this as their actual market is in severe decline, despite the inflated numbers being baptised due to the stranglehold they have on our education system. Yet they complain about secularism creeping into education despite the fact that a tiny 60 schools are Educate Together and zero, that's right none of them are secondary.

If you want to bring your child up with your personal belief system, by all means feel free to do it in the comfort of your own homes.

I Heart Internet · 15-12-2011 04:07PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Yeah, it's not like it'd have any negative affect on the child, right?

I don't understan the question.

Seachmall wrote: »

Huh, that's depressing.

No its not. Giving parents no choice would be totally illiberal and depressing. We don't all want the same.

Primary School Patronage - trouble ahead

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