Scotrail No Ticket, **** on a Train

take everything · 14-12-2011 07:58PM

If I'm stuck in a traffic jam for 30 minutes because someone ahead of me has crashed into someone else, are you saying that it's acceptable for me to move myself up to the top of the traffic jam and start wrestling people off the road and demanding that the two parties move their cars out of the way to clear the traffic jam, because I'm being delayed by their incident?!?

You're analogy is inapt.
You're comparing this guys fare-dodging to an accident. An apt analogy would compare this guys fare-dodging to guys doing donuts in the middle of the road blocking traffic.
In other words, in both cases, an illegal act is causing a lot of people to be held up in each case (Even if the nature of an accident was illegal, it needs to be investigated and cars shouldn't be moved for that purpose. Again this does not apply in the case with this fare-dodger).

Auldloon · 14-12-2011 08:00PM

The guy who made that recording was on the radio news earlier(scotland). He said the row had being going on for a few mins before he started recording. Initially he had the thought to pay the kids fare for him but with the foul language, attitude and abuse coming from the kid he thought no way and started recorded it instead.

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:01PM

Biggins wrote: »

If you watch the video carefully, he was following steps.
He repeatedly asked for the proper ticket from the chap.
WHEN the person started to get abusive, thats when he was asked to vacate the train.
Workers are allowed to do this when they feel they and/or others are in trouble and a possible breach of the peace/violence might occur.

This is what the elderly worker did then. He for the sake of his own worry about himself and possibly other passengers, asked the young man to leave.
The young man didn't.

As for this crap of the "Big Man" pushing his weight around...
Take a good look at the man would ye! If that man wanted to push his full weight around, he clearly would have done some more serious damage if he wanted to.
He didn't - he used proportional force to see that the elderly worker was no longer abused and that the thug was ejected from the train without having to break bones, etc.

If the lad had done was was asked of him in the first place, had he actually produced a paid for ticket for the journey he was on, had he been polite, even apologetic - guess what - he would have arrived safely at his eventual destination on time with the rest.
...But he decided to speak and behave like a prick. He reaped what he sowed - and serve him right!

Well you're watching a different video to me because he appears to order him off the train from the start. The 'big man' throws him off the train like a rag doll. Big tough man throwing a smaller person around. How do you know he didn't break any bones? You don't, but supposition seems to be your way.

Here's a question for you if the guilty party had been 'the big man' do you think the conductor and others on the train would have been so brave? No!

That's what I like about the process on the LUAS, no messing around, no ego's or abuse of position. You get your fine in your hand and sent on your way. Some people just thrive on violent confrontation and can't help but provoke it unnecessarily.

I think it's a true sign of the degradation of society when so many people so vehemently advocate brutal violence. Personally I'm disgusted at the attitudes on this thread!

G.muny · 14-12-2011 08:02PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqprbH7mrg

Have to hand it to the Scottish, they don't mess about

Anyone remember this when some looper crashed a burning car into glasgow airport

14-12-2011 08:06PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

No I was never thrown out of anywhere in my life as it happens. What you are advocating here is that every time a disagreement emerges between someone in authority and a member of the public, that another member of the public should get involved and sort out the issue in an arbitary way. That's not the kind of society I want to live in, if it has nothing to do with you, then stay the f*ck out of it and mind your own business.

If I'm stuck in a traffic jam for 30 minutes because someone ahead of me has crashed into someone else, are you saying that it's acceptable for me to move myself up to the top of the traffic jam and start wrestling people off the road and demanding that the two parties move their cars out of the way to clear the traffic jam, because I'm being delayed by their incident?!?

Where do you draw the line? A man has a heart attack. Nothing to do with you. Do you assist? We do not have any Good Samaritan law. Do you just call authorities and move on?
A man is beating his girlfriend, she is unconscious and he is about to kill her, do you help? Neither affect you directly. Most situations need some common sense and courage but also a general decency.

I hope this guy on the train is the one around when i need help. If my life depends on some of the people commenting here, God help me.

HellFireClub · 14-12-2011 08:09PM

take everything wrote: »

You're analogy is inapt.
You're comparing this guys fare-dodging to an accident. An apt analogy would compare this guys fare-dodging to guys doing donuts in the middle of the road blocking traffic.
In other words, in both cases, an illegal act is causing a lot of people to be held up in each case (Even if the nature of an accident was illegal, it needs to be investigated and cars shouldn't be moved for that purpose. Again this does not apply in the case with this fare-dodger).

Ok, to return this scenario to one that is based within your rules...

Someone breaks the law by breaking a red traffic light. A crash is the outcome, and a traffic jam is caused. It still isn't open to people held in the traffic jam to interfere, we have a process that involves the gardai being called, the matter being investigated and an outcome delivered.

It isn't open to people to start getting involved because God forbid, they get delayed for a few minutes, THAT'S LIFE, DELAY'S HAPPEN!!!

Unfortunately these days, people will walk over other people to get to where they are going, all part of the sheer selfishness that is an overhang of our Celtic Tiger years.

Only a few years back there was a priest who had a heart attack on a train in Bray I think it was, and because he wasn't wearing his clerical garb, people thought he was homeless or drunk or something and literally walked over him and around him as he was breathing his last breath.

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:11PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

...Personally I'm disgusted at the attitudes on this thread!

...And personally I'm disgusted that some youths (Not ALL - some here clearly are wiser beyond their years) here are standing up for the young abusive thug!

Instead of standing up for a young teenage abusive thug that CLEARLY has no respect for the elderly, never mind a younger worker – how about you equally stand up for fellow passengers that have to live daily with abusive pups that often make their ugly presence known on similar journeys via train or bus etc!

No - that would be too much to ask for, from some here clearly!

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Where do you draw the line? A man has a heart attack. Nothing to do with you. Do you assist? We do not have any Good Samaritan law. Do you just call authorities and move on?
A man is beating his girlfriend, she is unconscious and he is about to kill her, do you help? Neither affect you directly. Most situations need some common sense and courage but also a general decency.

I hope this guy on the train is the one around when i need help. If my life depends on some of the people commenting here, God help me.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. The point has already been made that there is a time to act and a time for discretion. A man not paying for a train ticket and a man beating his girlfriend to death are hardly comparable. The difference is in perspective. A bit of cop on here in fairness.

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:16PM

Biggins wrote: »

...And personally I'm disgusted that some youths (Not ALL - some here clearly are wiser beyond their years) here are standing up for the young abusive thug!

Instead of standing up for a young teenage abusive thug that CLEARLY has no respect for the elderly, never mind a younger worker – how about you equally stand up for fellow passengers that have to live daily with abusive pups that often make their ugly presence known on similar journeys via train or bus etc!

No - that would be too much to ask for, from some here clearly!

Yep you're right let's go around physically assaulting everyone who as much as swears at another person. You think the correct punishment for not paying your fair is a beating??? That's what you call 'wisdom beyond years??? Mate, you're for the birds. If you watch the video the conductor actually has to grab the mans arm because he intends to confront the youth on the platform. THUGGERY pure and simple and you're advocating it.

I think there's a kid in your local shop stealing sweets if you're quick you can give him a good kicking, hurry now!!!

summerskin · 14-12-2011 08:17PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

take everything wrote: »

You're analogy is inapt.
You're comparing this guys fare-dodging to an accident. An apt analogy would compare this guys fare-dodging to guys doing donuts in the middle of the road blocking traffic.
In other words, in both cases, an illegal act is causing a lot of people to be held up in each case (Even if the nature of an accident was illegal, it needs to be investigated and cars shouldn't be moved for that purpose. Again this does not apply in the case with this fare-dodger).

Ok, to return this scenario to one that is based within your rules...

Someone breaks the law by breaking a red traffic light. A crash is the outcome, and a traffic jam is caused. It still isn't open to people held in the traffic jam to interfere, we have a process that involves the gardai being called, the matter being investigated and an outcome delivered.

It isn't open to people to start getting involved because God forbid, they get delayed for a few minutes, THAT'S LIFE, DELAY'S HAPPEN!!!

Unfortunately these days, people will walk over other people to get to where they are going, all part of the sheer selfishness that is an overhang of our Celtic Tiger years.

Only a few years back there was a priest who had a heart attack on a train in Bray I think it was, and because he wasn't wearing his clerical garb, people thought he was homeless or drunk or something and literally walked over him and around him as he was breathing his last breath.

So in your view he should be treated better as he was a priest?

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:18PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Yep you're right let's go around physically assaulting everyone who as much as swears at another person. You think the correct punishment for not paying your fair is a beating??? That's what you call 'wisdom beyond years??? Mate, you're for the birds.

I think there's a kid in your local shop stealing sweets if you're quick you can give him a good kicking, hurry now!!!

I'll leave you to your own opinion.
We differ - end of story.

14-12-2011 08:18PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

Ok, to return this scenario to one that is based within your rules...

Someone breaks the law by breaking a red traffic light. A crash is the outcome, and a traffic jam is caused. It still isn't open to people held in the traffic jam to interfere, we have a process that involves the gardai being called, the matter being investigated and an outcome delivered.

It isn't open to people to start getting involved because God forbid, they get delayed for a few minutes, THAT'S LIFE, DELAY'S HAPPEN!!!

Unfortunately these days, people will walk over other people to get to where they are going, all part of the sheer selfishness that is an overhang of our Celtic Tiger years.

Only a few years back there was a priest who had a heart attack on a train in Bray I think it was, and because he wasn't wearing his clerical garb, people thought he was homeless or drunk or something and literally walked over him and around him as he was breathing his last breath.

It takes alot of confidence to even try and fare-dodge, especially on such a long commute. Say the inspector ignored his incorrect ticket and carried on his journey. He gets off at his destination and full of confidence an still empty of funds, he mugs someone like you. Someone passive who is scared of any confrontation. Would you mind the same 'bully' chasing after him or offering you his phone to call authorities? If its an injury or dangerous then most will wait. if its just some young idiot who needs to be put in his place, no point wasting time, get him off

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:20PM

Biggins wrote: »

I'll leave you to your own opinion.
We differ - end of story.

Don't stir it up in the first place if you can't handle the debate.

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It takes alot of confidence to even try and fare-dodge, especially on such a long commute. Say the inspector ignored his incorrect ticket and carried on his journey. He gets off at his destination and full of confidence an still empty of funds, he mugs someone like you. Someone passive who is scared of any confrontation. Would you mind the same 'bully' chasing after him or offering you his phone to call authorities? If its an injury or dangerous then most will wait. if its just some young idiot who needs to be put in his place, no point wasting time, get him off

Now you're just contriving arguments. Loads of different people fare dodge not just thugs. That getting away with it gives them the confidence to commit more serious crime is ridiculous.

Latchy · 14-12-2011 08:23PM

I once saw a guy beating up on a girl on a public street and as I was so concerned about what I was seeing , which was the guy shouting at her and beating her around the head a lot , I called the police on mobile phone .This was happening just 20 yards away from me as I was walking home and I was aware that this guy had he seen me, could so easy turn his attention to me but instinct kicked in and I knew I had to get help for the girl who was in a lot of emotional not to mention physical stress .

Sure enough police soon arrived arrived and took over the situation but I would have been sick and horrified if I had read the next day that the girl had been murdered in public and as far as I could see I ... the only witness ...had done nothing , which is what I explained to the police . My point is that people will do the right thing if the feel it needs to be done and where a persons life is at stake .

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:24PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Don't stir it up in the first place if you can't handle the debate.

I'm debating - your insinuating that I'd like to go kicking kids in sweet shops.
One can't DEBATE with someone else that has to stoop to that low mentality, to put forward their opinion.

Latchy · 14-12-2011 08:26PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Now you're just contriving arguments. Loads of different people fare dodge not just thugs. That getting away with it gives them the confidence to commit more serious crime is ridiculous.

Which is 'sometimes' lost on people .

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:26PM

Biggins wrote: »

I'm debating - your insinuating that I'd like to go kicking kids in sweet shops.
One can't DEBATE with someone else that has to stoop to that low mentality, to put forward their opinion.

Believe that all you want. It's not fooling anyone else. You advocated a violent act. At least have the courage to stick to your convictions instead of saying 'you're entitled to your opinion' to close out an uncomfortable debate.

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:28PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Believe that all you want. It's not fooling anyone else. You advocated a violent act. At least have the courage to stick to your convictions instead of saying 'you're entitled to your opinion' to close out an uncomfortable debate.

I advocate a retrained and appropriate response.
...But you continue to think you know me! Carry on with your rubbish!

HellFireClub · 14-12-2011 08:28PM

Biggins wrote: »

...And personally I'm disgusted that some youths (Not ALL - some here clearly are wiser beyond their years) here are standing up for the young abusive thug!

Instead of standing up for a young teenage abusive thug that CLEARLY has no respect for the elderly, never mind a younger worker – how about you equally stand up for fellow passengers that have to live daily with abusive pups that often make their ugly presence known on similar journeys via train or bus etc!

No - that would be too much to ask for, from some here clearly!

There is a wider issue here, but the resolution of it is not to say that people should jump out of their seats these days and start wrestling people off public transport.

First of all, arguing your case in the event that you are convinced that you are absolutely in the right, is not a criminal offence!

Also, the inspector has no power to order someone off the train for non or incorrect payment of a fare, at least not in this jurisdiction, to the best of my knowledge and I can't imagine that it is much different in the UK.

The correct response as far as I'm aware, is to issue a fine, and ask the person for their personal details so that the fine can be attached to them. If they don't agree that they were in the wrong, there is an appeals process for the matter. The inspector has no authority whatsoever to instruct one passenger to remove another passenger from the train.

He could and should lose his job over this, he actually created a public safety incident that has resulted in someone being injured. There is a procedure from removing someone from a train who is causing a problem, he has back up and TRAINING TO USE THE FACILITIES THAT ARE THERE TO DEAL WITH AN INCIDENT SUCH AS THIS, (police and I'm sure security personnel at the next train stop), but I'm sure of one thing, that the training doesn't involve arguing with a customer and then telling another customer to remove the customer that he has a problem with, from public transport, you wouldn't see the likes of this in Zimbabwe.

The ticket inspector demonstrated what could only be described as worst practice when dealing with an incident such as this, antagonising someone who appeared to genuinely believe that he is in the right, all the time escalating the event that was unfolding and putting as much pressure on him as possible, when the correct approach I'm fairly sure, should have been to try to deal with the issue by generating a fine, (which doesn't have to be paid immediately by the way, thereby negating the fact that the kid said he didn't have any money on him which would be normal enough for a student)...

MyKeyG · 14-12-2011 08:31PM

Biggins wrote: »

I advocate a retrained and appropriate response.
...But you continue to think you know me! Carry on with your rubbish!

Calling some ones opinion rubbish isn't stooping low? Just because you don't like what I have to say. Well your posts are there to prove my point so I'm done with this thread. You can get back to belittling others.

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:35PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

...the inspector has no power to order someone off the train for non or incorrect payment of a fare, at least not in this jurisdiction, to the best of my knowledge and I can't imagine that it is much different in the UK.

Look up the term "Legal duty of care".

HellFireClub wrote: »

The inspector has no authority whatsoever to instruct one passenger to remove another passenger from the train.

He didn't as far as I know and as far as can be told by the video - but nice try at throwing that one out there!

HellFireClub wrote: »

...He could and should lose his job over this, he actually created a public safety incident that has resulted in someone being injured. There is a procedure from removing someone from a train who is causing a problem...

No, he won't. He was following the procedure of asking the youth for a ticket.
...Then the abuse started... and under the standard legal mater of "legal duty of care" the youth was asked to vacate (in the interests of public safety alone I assume).

HellFireClub wrote: »

The ticket inspector demonstrated what could only be described as worst practice when dealing with an incident such as this, antagonising someone who appeared to genuinely believe that he is in the right, all the time escalating the event that was unfolding and putting as much pressure on him as possible, when the correct approach I'm fairly sure, should have been to try to deal with the issue by generating a fine, (which doesn't have to be paid immediately by the way, thereby negating the fact that the kid said he didn't have any money on him which would be normal enough for a student)...

We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
The man was doing his job and he replied according to the abusive treatment he immediately got from the young pup.
Had the youth behaved better, he wouldn't have possibly been in this situation in the first place.

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:37PM

MyKeyG wrote: »

Calling some ones opinion rubbish isn't stooping low? Just because you don't like what I have to say. Well your posts are there to prove my point so I'm done with this thread. You can get back to belittling others.

I'm calling your tainting of me, to like acting violently to a kid in sweetshop as rubbish.
Get back on topic, start debating with sense at least!

weeder · 14-12-2011 08:45PM

if the ticket inspector hadnt of told big man to get him off this wouldnt have happened. yer man was only trying to get back on to get his bag off according to the article so why couldnt he say that to the lad instead of trying to get back on for it.

Big man shouldnt have gotten involved, end of story. yer man didnt deserve to have his face split open over the sake of a £5 ticket. another thing about this story.

the lad had an unused valid ticket for the journey the other way which is the exact same price and he was given it in error so he was hardly fare dodging.

if the inspector had accepted his ticket and got on with the journey, this wouldnt have happened, nobody would hve been delayed, the lad would have paid for his journey, the company wouldnt have been out any more money and fares would have stayed the same price

ringadingding · 14-12-2011 08:45PM

I kinda lost any sympathy I had for the kid, when I found out he was not a kid, but a 19 year old......

Ive lived in England and seen the absolute cockiness in which teens and hoodies waltz around with, seemingly untouchable.
I live in Vienna where street violence is nearly an urban legend, first person to throw a punch goes to prison, simple as that. England is another matter though.

Had the guy been 13, yeah it's unwarranted, but a 19 year old should know better and made his own bed in my opinion.

I've a feeling more stuff went down before the camera was turned on tbh also with this guy.

MagicSean · 14-12-2011 08:49PM

weeder wrote: »

if the ticket inspector hadnt of told big man to get him off this wouldnt have happened. yer man was only trying to get back on to get his bag off according to the article so why couldnt he say that to the lad instead of trying to get back on for it.

Big man shouldnt have gotten involved, end of story. yer man didnt deserve to have his face split open over the sake of a £5 ticket. another thing about this story.

the lad had an unused valid ticket for the journey the other way which is the exact same price and he was given it in error so he was hardly fare dodging.

if the inspector had accepted his ticket and got on with the journey, this wouldnt have happened, nobody would hve been delayed, the lad would have paid for his journey, the company wouldnt have been out any more money and fares would have stayed the same price

Perhaps he could have explained that to the inspector instead of telling him to **** off. He might have done better out of the situation.

Biggins · 14-12-2011 08:51PM

In reality IF the young lad had the right ticket, he would have been fine.
* If he had not got abusive, he would have been fine I suspect.
* If he hadn't have been particularly abusive to an elderly man, he might have been fine.
* If what he says might have been true that he supposedly had "an unused valid ticket for the journey" he might have been fine and explained about this calmly - but he didn't!
* If the "Big Man" hadn't interceded, everyone would have had to wait for god knows how long - but all would have arrived at their destinations somewhat late and annoyed - but the actions/words of the young man put paid to that!
* If the youth had got away once with using an invalid ticket, who's to say he or someone else has not done/tried this trick before - and the staff of such trains were used to this fare dodging trick?

weeder · 14-12-2011 08:54PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Perhaps he could have explained that to the inspector instead of telling him to **** off. He might have done better out of the situation.

how do we know he didnt? as said before the argument was ongoing before the camera started rolling, to say he definitely did or didnt is just speculation.

HellFireClub · 14-12-2011 08:55PM

Biggins wrote: »

No, he won't. He was following the procedure of asking the youth for a ticket.
...Then the abuse started... and under the standard legal mater of "legal duty of care" the youth was asked to vacate (in the interests of public safety alone I assume).

He wasn't following the procedure. First of all, how to you know what the formal procedure is at the current time?!? Leaving out the age of the person in this incident, are you going to tell me that if the person without the correct ticket is an 80 year old pensioner, that the current procedure is to throw them off the train?!?

Biggins · 14-12-2011 09:02PM

HellFireClub wrote: »

He wasn't following the procedure. First of all, how to you know what the formal procedure is at the current time?!? Leaving out the age of the person in this incident, are you going to tell me that if the person without the correct is an 80 year old pensioner, that the current procedure is to throw them off the train?!?

As with hospitals and other public areas, even bars etc, if you eventually become a public nuisance (by continuous aggressiveness, possibly indicating at times, worse is to come) and are further deemed to be troublesome, something that might lead to a breach of the peace and/or risk to people/property, you can be asked to leave ANY property under the law that a business or organisation has an equal "Legal Duty Of Care" towards others that are in the area at the time.

Scotrail No Ticket, **** on a Train

Comments