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An honest question for the right-wing

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  • #92
    sarumite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    in a poll of the hundred greatest russians some years ago , stalin was in the top ten , something like a quater of russians regard stalin as having been a good leader , i imagine the figure for hitler in germany would be less than a tenth of one percent , china and russia are very different places than western europe and america , strong men are held in very high esteem

    There has never been a member of the Chinese communist party that has publicly denounced Mao in the same way that Kruschev publicly denounced Stalin. Deng Xiapeng came close but even he stopped short of the mark.


  • #93
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    sarumite wrote: »
    There has never been a member of the Chinese communist party that has publicly denounced Mao in the same way that Kruschev publicly denounced Stalin. Deng Xiapeng came close but even he stopped short of the mark.

    the chineese dont wash thier dirty laundry in public , denouncing mao would cause them to loose face internationally and china is the most nationalistic country in the world


  • #94
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    I'm very socially progressive (socially-left) but fiscally right-wing (libertarian-right). I don't think there are many parties in Ireland who suit my political leanings. I despise both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, I wouldn't join either of them if you gave me all the tea in China. I used to be in Labour, as I agreed with a lot of their social policies (gay marriage, pro-choice, secularisation, etc..) but sense then I've had time to develop my opinion on economics more and I don't really agree with them at all in that end.


  • #95
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    I'm very socially progressive (socially-left) but fiscally right-wing (libertarian-right). I don't think there are many parties in Ireland who suit my political leanings. I despise both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, I wouldn't join either of them if you gave me all the tea in China. I used to be in Labour, as I agreed with a lot of their social policies (gay marriage, pro-choice, secularisation, etc..) but sense then I've had time to develop my opinion on economics more and I don't really agree with them at all in that end.

    I would hold similar views myself. There seems to be a big enough portion of boards to suggest if our numbers aren't an anomaly of internet discussion boards that a party with those views would be moderately successful... So where is it?!


  • #96
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    I would hold similar views myself. There seems to be a big enough portion of boards to suggest if our numbers aren't an anomaly of internet discussion boards that a party with those views would be moderately successful... So where is it?!

    I have some bad news for you...


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  • #97
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    I have some bad news for you...

    I wouldn't be surprised if it's just an internet phenomenon. Libertarian ideals in Ireland are relatively new and still in the realm of ideological debate here. This is why the thrashing out of these ideas is still confined to discussion boards like this one. The debate is ongoing and I imagine there is no set unanimity as to how a socially-left fiscally right party would frame its policies. Starting a party would be the easy part, but getting everyone to agree would be the most difficult part as a label such as "socially-left, fiscally right" is still relatively broad.


  • #98
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    There seems to be a big enough portion of boards to suggest if our numbers aren't an anomaly of internet discussion boards that a party with those views would be moderately successful...
    If Boards were representative of society's demographics, then the average age in Ireland would be about 21, 70% of the population would be male, 50% of the workforce would be in the IT sector and World of Warcraft would likely be a national sport.
    So where is it?!
    They were called the PD's and they disbanded.


  • #99
    baalthor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭baalthor


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    sarumite wrote: »
    Nope. Though the Germans denounce Nazism and Kruschev denounced Stalins rule soon after coming to power. Unfortunately the Chinese have a put a lot of work into revising history and trying to erase the fact the Mao was a monster. I remember once reading a book the Great wall of China....or long wall as it was originally called. The argument goes that the wall is a testament to the fact that the Chinese people are unable to accept that they made a mistake or bad idea. I think it is that characteristic that makes them unable to look at Mao record without having to shred evidence, gloss over facts and sugar coat the rest.

    in a poll of the hundred greatest russians some years ago , stalin was in the top ten , something like a quater of russians regard stalin as having been a good leader , i imagine the figure for hitler in germany would be less than a tenth of one percent , china and russia are very different places than western europe and america , strong men are held in very high esteem

    It may have something to do with the outcome of WWII ...


  • #100
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    I wouldn't be surprised if it's just an internet phenomenon. Libertarian ideals in Ireland are relatively new and still in the realm of ideological debate here. This is why the thrashing out of these ideas is still confined to discussion boards like this one. The debate is ongoing and I imagine there is no set unanimity as to how a socially-left fiscally right party would frame its policies. Starting a party would be the easy part, but getting everyone to agree would be the most difficult part as a label such as "socially-left, fiscally right" is still relatively broad.

    I watched a video recently of Penn Jillette (a bit of a hero) talking about US politics and one point stuck that a group of individuals fighting for individual freedom will struggle against a cohesive group for and against specific topics.

    The thing is in Ireland that any party that started up with even a broad a label as "socially-left, fiscally right" would win my vote on the basis that they're at least playing in the ballpark I want to be in unlike every other party.
    However my recent work in the rural pub trade (specific to rural as it tends to have more regulars) has shown that we might well be a tiny minority in real life...


  • #101
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    They were called the PD's and they disbanded.
    They couldn't be classified in any way as fiscally conservative, having been in bed with FF during all those giveaway budgets and massive public sector expansion.


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  • #102
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    murphaph wrote: »
    They couldn't be classified in any way as fiscally conservative, having been in bed with FF during all those giveaway budgets and massive public sector expansion.
    I never suggested they were fiscally or otherwise conservative. The question was asked what party would fit the criteria of "socially progressive (socially-left) but fiscally right-wing (libertarian-right)", and in this regard the PD's fit the bill, within the context of political spectrum in Ireland.

    The link between conservative and 'right-wing' is a troublesome one because it can result in paradoxes. For example, the 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt was initiated by 'conservatives' who wanted to protect not a 'right-wing' but 'left-wing' system. Does that make them 'right-wing' or 'left-wing' as a result?

    If you accept my earlier definition of left and right as theoretically representing forces for or against social and economic change, then the PD's was almost certainly 'left-wing', but as libertarian capitalism is typically considered a 'right-wing' ideology, the classification becomes more fuzzy.

    It's why I think the whole need to classify things as left or right is pointless.


  • #103
    matthew8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    That is a really tough question. Fine Gael's Peter Mathews or Ming Flanagan for me. If both were to write a budget I would probably prefer Mathews budget, but Ming is more anti-bank bailout and wants to legalise drugs. Stephen Donnelly is good too.


  • #104
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I never suggested they were fiscally or otherwise conservative. The question was asked what party would fit the criteria of "socially progressive (socially-left) but fiscally right-wing (libertarian-right)", and in this regard the PD's fit the bill, within the context of political spectrum in Ireland.
    They don't fit that bill though. The PD's were a coalition partner in a government that oversaw a massive increase in public sector spending in all areas. These are not the actions of a fiscally conservative party. They may claim (or have claimed) to be a fiscally conservative party, but their actions tell a different story.


  • #105
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    murphaph wrote: »
    They don't fit that bill though. The PD's were a coalition partner in a government that oversaw a massive increase in public sector spending in all areas. These are not the actions of a fiscally conservative party. They may claim (or have claimed) to be a fiscally conservative party, but their actions tell a different story.
    Did you not read my reply? I never said they were a fiscally conservative party, and reiterated this in my reply; you're the only one talking about fiscally conservative parties.


  • #106
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,991 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Did you not read my reply? I never said they were a fiscally conservative party, and reiterated this in my reply; you're the only one talking about fiscally conservative parties.
    What do you consider fiscally right wing to mean then? Would a fiscally right wing party (in your opinion) have supported the expansion of public sector spend in the way the PD's did during their time in office?


  • #107
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    murphaph wrote: »
    What do you consider fiscally right wing to mean then? Would a fiscally right wing party (in your opinion) have supported the expansion of public sector spend in the way the PD's did during their time in office?
    Supported is the key word there, because in any kind of coalition, you're going to have a trade off, where parties will have to compromise and accept things that they don't like if they expect to get things that they do like. That's not left or right wing, but Realpolitik.


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