An honest question for the right-wing

jasonc5432

Ok, Im not right wing.

However, I know many people are.

So I have a question....

First Im not going to engage in arguing whether right wing is correct or wrong, or good or bad.

Im just getting an impression from many self proclaimed right wingers that they feel under-represented in irish politics.

So, my question is -- which party or individual politician do you consider MOST suits your political standpoint, and why?

Please try to explain it as best you can. I am genuinely interested and promise not to interfere with the discussion, nor will I disagree by posting in the thread.

So... if ONLY self proclaimed right wing people could concisely sum up their perspective number 1.

And, number two, say who (party or candidate) fits their perspective in Irish politics the best.

Thanks a million. Im open to learning more about your side of the equation, even if I do appear against it in other posts. Thanks in advance and I hope this thread provides food for thought for both the left AND the right

kev9100

Speaking as a fellow lefty, my bet would be the PDs before they sold their souls.

sarumite

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Ok, Im not right wing.

However, I know many people are.

So I have a question....

First Im not going to engage in arguing whether right wing is correct or wrong, or good or bad.

Im just getting an impression from many self proclaimed right wingers that they feel under-represented in irish politics.

So, my question is -- which party or individual politician do you consider MOST suits your political standpoint, and why?

Please try to explain it as best you can. I am genuinely interested and promise not to interfere with the discussion, nor will I disagree by posting in the thread.

So... if ONLY self proclaimed right wing people could concisely sum up their perspective number 1.

And, number two, say who (party or candidate) fits their perspective in Irish politics the best.

Thanks a million. Im open to learning more about your side of the equation, even if I do appear against it in other posts. Thanks in advance and I hope this thread provides food for thought for both the left AND the right

Personally, I would have to say the term really does need to be defined somewhat if you want to have a thread about "right wing". For example, I do not consider myself right wing generally, however depending on where I live my political opinions have been labelled as centre to right wing (Ireland), solidly left wing (USA) and centre left/centre (UK). As such, saying you don't want to engage in a discussion on what is "right wing" in thread specifically dedicated to the opinions of the "right wing" seems a little regressive in terms of getting a good discussion going.

As for me, as I said I am considerd by some of my fellow countrymen to be right wing (economically at least, socially I am far too liberal to be a typcial Irishman). I don't believe any party really fully represent my viewpoint to be honest. However I would not proclaim myself a "right winger" so I guess this thread isn't intended for me. (just reread and saw the "slef proclaimed" bit now)

Eliot Rosewater

I think it's pretty standard for people of a right wing outlook to vote for Fine Gael, or perhaps Fianna Fail. That's not to say FG or FF are right wing, just that the alternatives are more to the left.

I, personally, am highly frustrated by the Irish political scene, and this frustration is undoubtedly shared by many others. I think all parties operate in the same political paradigm that sees a large role for the government in individual people's affairs and that panders to people's desire for someone else to solve their problems.

As an example, take college fees. Young people have a highly developed sense of entitlement to free college education, and are opposed even to a highly accessible government sponsored loan setup. No party actually stands up to them. No party says "this is something you want that will apparently benefit you over the years so you should pay for at least some of it." Young people want someone else to solve their problems, and Irish parties pander to this.

(The only reason governments have increased fees is because of budget restrictions.)

jasonc5432

sarumite wrote: »

Personally, I would have to say the term really does need to be defined somewhat if you want to have a thread about "right wing". For example, I do not consider myself right wing generally, however depending on where I live my political opinions have been labelled as centre to right wing (Ireland), solidly left wing (USA) and centre left/centre (UK). As such, saying you don't want to engage in a discussion on what is "right wing" in thread specifically dedicated to the opinions of the "right wing" seems a little regressive in terms of getting a good discussion going.

As for me, as I said I am considerd by some of my fellow countrymen to be right wing (economically at least, socially I am far too liberal to be a typcial Irishman). I don't believe any party really fully represent my viewpoint to be honest. However I would not proclaim myself a "right winger" so I guess this thread isn't intended for me. (just reread and saw the "slef proclaimed" bit now)

Ok -- just dipping in again to clarify ...

I did not mean i do not wish to see people who consider themselves right wing NOT discussing what right wing is or 'defining' it.

In fact, that's exactly what I want.

I meant -- I, a leftist, will not start shooting or sniping at your viewpoints in this thread --- making it a 'right wing bashing' thread.

So, please, feel free to define it, promote it, defend, and discuss it.

Apologies for the crossed wires.

Ok, Im looking forward to learning more about your side ladies and gents?

No malice intended whatsoever -- we can discuss that til the cows come home in other threads -- but ill keep out of it here because I want to learn more about the actual sentiment on the ground in Ireland with people who consider themselves 'right wing', or anywhere between 'right of centre' and 'extreme right'.

Feel free also to differentiate between 'social' right, and 'economic' right.

Ellis Dee

kev9100 wrote: »

Speaking as a fellow lefty, my bet would be the PDs before they sold their souls.

Those people didn't sell their souls, because they never had any to begin with. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

sarumite

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Feel free also to differentiate between 'social' right, and 'economic' right.

I will come back and express myself when I have more time.

However to this point I will answer now, imo Economics right deals with fiscal matters (budget, taxation etc), social right deals with social matters (gay marriage, abortion etc).

anymore

There are no real right wingers in Ireland, so this seems a pretty pointless thread.

jasonc5432

anymore wrote: »

There are no real right wingers in Ireland, so this seems a pretty pointless thread.

Not one person in ireland is right wing?

What about the posters on this forum, who claim to be?

Surely all voices deserve to be heard... and.. in the VERY least, recognized to actually exist.

There are in fact right wing people, and I am very interested in their views. That's democracy

anymore

jasonc5432 wrote: »

Not one person in ireland is right wing?

What about the posters on this forum, who claim to be?

Surely all voices deserve to be heard... and.. in the VERY least, recognized to actually exist.

There are in fact right wing people, and I am very interested in their views. That's democracy

I rather assume tht people who are right wing or regard themselves as right wing already do make thier voices hear on threads.
I am jsut curious about this kind of thread which seems to invlove the poster not having very much to contriubute to the thread . In ypur case you say " .I am genuinely interested and promise not to interfere with the discussion, nor will I disagree by posting in the thread ".
However to each thier own.
I will make my own contribution; please please dont anyone say the PDs were right wing - they werent - they were enthusiastic voters for and beneficiaries of benchmarking which one of the most left wing devices introduced to this country ever !
mary harney right wing She was a PS from the beginning to the end and even gave her husband to be a a PS position !:)

southsiderosie

I kind of hate these 'right wing-left wing' labels. I grew up in the US and am a lifelong democrat, but when I lived in Dublin, on more than one occasion during a political discussion, people would look at me in horror and exclaim "Are you a Republican?!?!?!". Generally, these were conversations about the size and role of government; Americans are generally far more skeptical about government, and more committed to finding local solutions to local problems than their European counterparts. So apparently, by Irish standards, I am right-wing (even though I would self-identify as a social democrat). Am I allowed to comment?

jasonc5432

southsiderosie wrote: »

I kind of hate these 'right wing-left wing' labels. I grew up in the US and am a lifelong democrat, but when I lived in Dublin, on more than one occasion during a political discussion, people would look at me in horror and exclaim "Are you a Republican?!?!?!". Generally, these were conversations about the size and role of government; Americans are generally far more skeptical about government, and more committed to finding local solutions to local problems than their European counterparts. So apparently, by Irish standards, I am right-wing (even though I would self-identify as a social democrat). Am I allowed to comment?

If you believe yourself to be considered right wing by Irish standards, then your comments are definitely relevant because it is Ireland's system I'm most interested in.

murphaph

Personally I would define myself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal but with a firm view that law and order is important to society to enable people feel safe.

I believe government should balance its books like anyone else and not borrow inordinately to fund today's expenditure.

I simply believe it is unfair to burden the next generation with debt (save for infrastructure which will serve them).

I believe in a social safety net that catches people when they fall out of employment, but not one that then proceeds to carry them indefinitely.

I believe in a system of universal health care that is almost free at the point of delivery (almost free means a nominal charge like €5 to see your GP and perhaps a €5 charge on prescriptions, so as to prevent people wasting the doctor's time to get a few painkillers). The exact method is less important to me, so long as it doesn't encourage waste.

I believe that government has an important role to play in regulating financial institutions and should be able to institute legislation to prevent an overheating in the lending market.

I do not feel that any party fits even 50% of my outlook. As for individual TDs? Well, I think the likes of Peter Matthews would be closest.

Chucky the tree

Fine Gael are the most right wing party in Ireland, which really says how bad Ireland as it in terms of choice. After that you're only hope is independents running in your area.

anymore

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Fine Gael are the most right wing party in Ireland, which really says how bad Ireland as it in terms of choice. After that you're only hope is independents running in your area.

FG right wing ???:D:confused::)

Taoiseach is a teacher, Minister for Finance is a teacher !!!!!!!
If Fg is rightwing, it must be the most incompetent right wing party in history !

Chucky the tree

anymore wrote: »

FG right wing ???:D:confused::)

Taoiseach is a teacher, Minister for Finance is a teacher !!!!!!!
If Fg is rightwing, it must be the most incompetent right wing party in history !

How does the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance being a teacher make them not right wing? Also, who are the most right wing party in Ireland if not Fine Gael?

dsmythy

No such party exists. Need a party who will make their budget plans and ideas in advance, show the people those plans, and not pander the second somebody mentions the word "vulnerable". A party which feels it has a plan for Ireland (even if identified as right wing) and will stick to it regardless of how popular or otherwise it is. Such a party of course wouldn't stand a chance in Ireland of getting elected. Fine Gael sure aint it.

Manach

It might offer, at the discretion of OP, a bit more choice to think of this in a European context, which parties say might best open a franchise operation here - such as the German CDU?

Lockstep

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I would define myself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal but with a firm view that law and order is important to society to enable people feel safe.

I believe government should balance its books like anyone else and not borrow inordinately to fund today's expenditure.

I simply believe it is unfair to burden the next generation with debt (save for infrastructure which will serve them).

I believe in a social safety net that catches people when they fall out of employment, but not one that then proceeds to carry them indefinitely.

I believe in a system of universal health care that is almost free at the point of delivery (almost free means a nominal charge like €5 to see your GP and perhaps a €5 charge on prescriptions, so as to prevent people wasting the doctor's time to get a few painkillers). The exact method is less important to me, so long as it doesn't encourage waste.

I believe that government has an important role to play in regulating financial institutions and should be able to institute legislation to prevent an overheating in the lending market.

These things. I'd say most people in Ireland, be they right or left would agree with these, apart from the extremists of both the left and right.

Most people are fairly sensible: we want a system that helps out those who are in trouble but which doesn't reward laziness. We want a system which allows those who work hard to benefit but which taxes them to ensure everyone can have a fair stab at success. We deplore corruption, jobs for the boys and vested interests objectively (at a local level is another story) and we believe in a regulated capitalism that prevents monopolies and ensures services such as education and healthcare are accessible to all.

The problem is that even sensible suggestions can be misconstrued. Joan Burton once made a comment that welfare should not be seen as a lifestyle choice by school leavers (something I'd say most of us would agree with) However, she was lambasted by the far left for attacking the most vulnerable for daring to suggest that SOME people on welfare do not want to work. These people are a tiny minority but they do exist but even such reasonable statements can be attacked. Likewise, Varadkar encouraging people to holiday in Ireland. A fair statement and again one which was criticised.

anymore

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How does the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance being a teacher make them not right wing? Also, who are the most right wing party in Ireland if not Fine Gael?

being teachers helps to explain their leftist socialist desires to protect the Public Sector at the expense of the private sector !
Some right wingers indeed !:D:mad::D

Chucky the tree

anymore wrote: »

being teachers helps to explain their leftist socialist desires to protect the Public Sector at the expense of the private sector !
Some right wingers indeed !:D:mad::D

To be fair I don't Fine Gael have wanted to protect the Public Sector.

anymore

Chucky the tree wrote: »

To be fair I don't Fine Gael have wanted to protect the Public Sector.

I voted FG but now it is clear to me that they do.

southsiderosie

jasonc5432 wrote: »

If you believe yourself to be considered right wing by Irish standards, then your comments are definitely relevant because it is Ireland's system I'm most interested in.

I guess the answer would be 'none of the above', in part because none of Ireland's political parties fall neatly along a left-right axis (with the possible exception of left-leaning parties).

I have a lot of time for Ruari Quinn, but overall, I am surprised by how Labour has completely squandered the opportunity to make serious electoral gains over the last two years. FF has no governing ideology other than to get re-elected. They are pragmatic, if nothing else, but if only for the bank guarantee (much less their other sins), they need to be banished to the electoral wilderness for a long, long time. TBH, I don't really get what FG does or stands for, and I'm not impressed by their politicians or what I know of their political platform, but they are the least objectionable of a bad lot, I suppose.

As for Sinn Fein...well I think most of their economic proposals are a fiction, in part because they know they are shielded from ever having to make a hard decision on this stuff. In the North, they are far more pragmatic. I think that they are far more community-oriented than the other parties, which is good, but far too state-oriented, which is surprising given that in the North, republican community groups have historically been very creative in generating community-based projects and service provision without heavy state involvement (obviously not all of this was by choice!).

I'd also add that, as a non-white immigrant living in Ireland (North and the Republic), I generally found Sinn Fein to be very good on citizenship and immigration-related issues. I think this is more due to the ideology of the leadership rather than political support for immigration from their constituency though. I find FG to be quite backwards and out of step in this regard.

To make a long story short, I couldn't really support any Irish political parties. However, if murphaph were to form a party based on the principles espoused in his post, he would get my vote.

anymore wrote: »

FG right wing ???:D:confused::)

Taoiseach is a teacher, Minister for Finance is a teacher !!!!!!!
If Fg is rightwing, it must be the most incompetent right wing party in history !

He didn't say FG were right-wing, he said they are the most right-wing party in Ireland. There is a difference.

Chucky the tree

anymore wrote: »

I voted FG but now it is clear to me that they do.

Well when they are in a coaliation with the Public sector Trade Union party I'm not sure what you expect.

Lockstep

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well when they are in a coaliation with the Public sector Trade Union party I'm not sure what you expect.

Fixed your post

Labour have strong union links but they are affiliated to SIPTU (a mostly private sector union) and were also implicitly supported by Mandate (a low-wage private sector union) during the last election.

Labour do get a strong union vote but it's disingenous to claim they're only supported by the public sector unions or even get most of their support from them.

nesf

kev9100 wrote: »

Speaking as a fellow lefty, my bet would be the PDs before they sold their souls.

This. Fiscal conservatism, social liberalism. Problem is the best they could do is be a very junior coalition partner to FF so they were only ever going to get scraps from the high table at best.

anymore

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well when they are in a coaliation with the Public sector Trade Union party I'm not sure what you expect.

I would expect them to act as if they were the senior coalition partner !

nesf

anymore wrote: »

I would expect them to act as if they were the senior coalition partner !

Eh, they got concessions on Child Benefit and potentially Third Level fees, I'm not too worried about FG's performance. Anyway, the proof of the pudding is tomorrow and the day after really.

hmmm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

To be fair I don't Fine Gael have wanted to protect the Public Sector.

I think that's a bit unfair on them. Put properly, I believe (hope) they don't want to protect the PS, at the expense of every other sector, but they want to cut in the right areas. Unfortunately I can't say the same about Labour who have some good people who understand the issues but are hidebound ideologically.

K-9

I suppose FG would be the most right wing economically. Their social conservative side would put me of but yes, they are about as right wing as you'll get here.

anymore

southsiderosie wrote: »

I guess the answer would be 'none of the above', in part because none of Ireland's political parties fall neatly along a left-right axis (with the possible exception of left-leaning parties).

I have a lot of time for Ruari Quinn, but overall, I am surprised by how Labour has completely squandered the opportunity to make serious electoral gains over the last two years. FF has no governing ideology other than to get re-elected. They are pragmatic, if nothing else, but if only for the bank guarantee (much less their other sins), they need to be banished to the electoral wilderness for a long, long time. TBH, I don't really get what FG does or stands for, and I'm not impressed by their politicians or what I know of their political platform, but they are the least objectionable of a bad lot, I suppose.

As for Sinn Fein...well I think most of their economic proposals are a fiction, in part because they know they are shielded from ever having to make a hard decision on this stuff. In the North, they are far more pragmatic. I think that they are far more community-oriented than the other parties, which is good, but far too state-oriented, which is surprising given that in the North, republican community groups have historically been very creative in generating community-based projects and service provision without heavy state involvement (obviously not all of this was by choice!).

I'd also add that, as a non-white immigrant living in Ireland (North and the Republic), I generally found Sinn Fein to be very good on citizenship and immigration-related issues. I think this is more due to the ideology of the leadership rather than political support for immigration from their constituency though. I find FG to be quite backwards and out of step in this regard.

To make a long story short, I couldn't really support any Irish political parties. However, if murphaph were to form a party based on the principles espoused in his post, he would get my vote.




He didn't say FG were right-wing, he said they are the most right-wing party in Ireland. There is a difference.

Well I presume to be the most right wing, the starting point is to be right wing !

southsiderosie

anymore wrote: »

[/B]
Well I presume to be the most right wing, the starting point is to be right wing !

No, it would be relative. In the US, 'Blue Dog Democrats' are the most right wing members of a left-wing party, but they are not the most right win in Congress. Within Ireland, they are the furthest to the right on the political spectrum.

Look at Europe as a whole. Of the political left, the British Labour party is probably one of the most 'right wing' within that specific bloc. But that doesn't mean they are right-wing in the way that the Tories are.

K-9

anymore wrote: »

[/B]
Well I presume to be the most right wing, the starting point is to be right wing !

The OP asked which party or politician would suit a right wing opinion, seeing as there aren't any really, FG are the next available option.

ILikeBananas

+1 for voting for Murpaph's socially liberal, fiscally conservative party.

Godge

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I would define myself as fiscally conservative and socially liberal but with a firm view that law and order is important to society to enable people feel safe.

I believe government should balance its books like anyone else and not borrow inordinately to fund today's expenditure.

I simply believe it is unfair to burden the next generation with debt (save for infrastructure which will serve them).

I believe in a social safety net that catches people when they fall out of employment, but not one that then proceeds to carry them indefinitely.

I believe in a system of universal health care that is almost free at the point of delivery (almost free means a nominal charge like €5 to see your GP and perhaps a €5 charge on prescriptions, so as to prevent people wasting the doctor's time to get a few painkillers). The exact method is less important to me, so long as it doesn't encourage waste.

I believe that government has an important role to play in regulating financial institutions and should be able to institute legislation to prevent an overheating in the lending market.

I do not feel that any party fits even 50% of my outlook. As for individual TDs? Well, I think the likes of Peter Matthews would be closest.

I would broadly agree with most of this. Obviously, it is broad principles and there would be some devil in the detail.

FG under Garret Fitzgerald would have been closest to this vision but nobody before or since has come any way close to this view. Certainly not FF, nor the madmen of SF and ULA. A fiscally conservative Labour person (Ruairi Quinn?) might be close too.

irishh_bob

Godge wrote: »

I would broadly agree with most of this. Obviously, it is broad principles and there would be some devil in the detail.

FG under Garret Fitzgerald would have been closest to this vision but nobody before or since has come any way close to this view. Certainly not FF, nor the madmen of SF and ULA. A fiscally conservative Labour person (Ruairi Quinn?) might be close too.

FG under garrett were a social democratic party , if garrett were alive and still in politics , his natural home today would be labour , garrett was socially liberal but was of the left economically

anymore

irishh_bob wrote: »

FG under garrett were a social democratic party , if garrett were alive and still in politics , his natural home today would be labour , garrett was socially liberal but was of the left economically

Fitzgerald it should be said was one of the original politicians to take a ' Bail Out' from the banks after his foray into the world of business ended so disastrously. His income was more than enough to continue to pay back the big bank loans he had taken out in order to make a big killing on the shares he had bought in GPA. But no 'Saint Garret' took the easy way out and so it was the bank's shareholders who ultimately paid for his disastrous investments. Sound familiar at all ????

Duke Leonal Felmet

None, really. I wish there was a libertarian party, and I don't mean a loony, Christianity dominated Tea Party type, either.

JustinDee

Why must everyone keep banging on about right and left wing polemics? I'd wager most Irish are neither but a mixed-bag of both. A gestalt-political mindset if you will.
In my own view, Irish people tend to vote for what suits themselves and what suits them now. The Irish electorate voting in a general election on national issues is far rarer than voting on more local issues.
Whether its a pamphletic cause-du-jour championed by the so-called 'left-wing' party or a more conservative issue outside of that, one would be hard-pressed to actually find anyone who doesn't vote on issues from both the left and right of the political spectrum.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anymore

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

In fairness to the public, it is politicians themsleves who actively go out and cultivate this attitude and expectation. Michael Mcgrath for example has repeatedly sent out advertising leaflets encouraging them to contact him in order to get help to get their entitlemesnts in regard to some issues. I am sure there must be others as well.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anymore

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Whislt I agree with much of what you see, I reject the claim that 'constituents expect clientism'. As I said politicians actively go out and try to create this clientielist state. I have emailed Tds, councilors on a good many occassions but never, ever regarding a personal issue concerning myself or my family. I suspect the majority of irish people have never made contact with thier TDs or councillors. In fact i would suspect there is a small hardcore of people who do regularly contact TDs etc and many of these are loosely connected with politicis, .
There is of course nimbyism at work and one of the greatest examples I can personally think of is whem M Mcgrath and Michael martin were objectors to the building of a co located hospital in the gropunds of Cork University Hospital althouh co location was part of the FF mainifesto they had supported in the previous general election. Of course the hospital has never been built.

JustinDee

anymore wrote: »

I suspect the majority of irish people have never made contact with thier TDs or councillors. In fact i would suspect there is a small hardcore of people who do regularly contact TDs etc and many of these are loosely connected with politicis

I'd say you'd be in for disappointment if you ever went to look into this.

Its traditional. People vote for themselves in this country, not for the country.

anymore

JustinDee wrote: »

I'd say you'd be in for disappointment if you ever went to look into this.

Its traditional. People vote for themselves in this country, not for the country.

Tell me how I WOULD GO ABOUT FINDING THIS OUT SO

JustinDee

anymore wrote: »

Tell me how I WOULD GO ABOUT FINDING THIS OUT SO

Plenty of psephological data and studies for your perusal online.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

anymore

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You prove my point that there are people who are ' multiple visitors' to clinics. And take out the numbers of people who have some party affiliation and I would say that most irish people dont make contact with thier politicians.

anymore

JustinDee wrote: »

Plenty of psephological data and studies for your perusal online.

i have a lfetime of oexperience and observations upon which to rely.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

JustinDee

anymore wrote: »

i have a lfetime of oexperience and observations upon which to rely.

Guess what? So do I. So does almost every other poster who might happen to disagree with you, in fact.