Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

RasTa · 11-12-2011 12:30AM

daithijjj wrote: »

Dempsey visits Bellamy country, scores an OG and misses a pen. Karma? its alive and well.

I don't think you understand how karma works

SM01 · 11-12-2011 12:31AM

tommyhaas wrote: »

This is what I was getting at earlier. If you're going to spend £35m on a striker, he has to be good enough to slot straight in. Dalglish obviously doesn't feel he is, hence his lack of starts. He see's him in training every day, and so at this stage he mustn't rate him that highly if in a side in dire need of a finisher, Carroll isn't getting a look in on a regular basis

I assume most reasonable supporters acknowledge he's not a '£35m striker' and that the circumstances of his purchase were rushed and he had no bearing on the price paid but he's under a microscope because of that price tag, through no fault of his own.

Having said that, there's no doubt that he's been underwhelming as a Liverpool player and like most people I had hoped to see the form he'd been showing for Newcastle for a few months in the Premier League before he got injured. He's not replicated that and I would be lying if I said I would be sure he'd turn out to be a great striker but I still think it's a possibility (rather than a probability which I thought this time last year) but I feel Dalglish is still affording him a period of grace (due to age / moving and settling etc.) I don't envisage that period of grace lasting much beyond the end of this season though.

If financial circumstances permit I'd rather take a chance and hold on to him for now in the hope that he will come good.

daithijjj · 11-12-2011 12:33AM

RasTa wrote: »

I don't think you understand how karma works

I do know i dont care what you think.

d22ontour · 11-12-2011 12:34AM

opr wrote: »

In fairness the owners haven't actually handed over much in the way of transfer funds when you consider the outgoing sales.

Opr

They signed a check for 35m regardless though,may not have been from their pockets but it's still through the books as a purchase.Henry won't be saying 'ah sure the Torres money bought him' so it cost us nothing...
More than likely they will be wondering why 35m was spent on a player who may be out of his depth at LFC when it could have actually progressed the club towards it's current goals and not stalled them.

opr · 11-12-2011 12:42AM

tommyhaas wrote: »

They haven't no, but they'd still surely question what value was achieved from the money that was spent, and why such further investment is necessary in an area where it really shouldn't be

d22ontour wrote: »

They signed a check for 35m regardless though,may not have been from their pockets but it's still through the books as a purchase.Henry won't be saying 'ah sure the Torres money bought him' so it cost us nothing...
More than likely they will be wondering why 35m was spent on a player who may be out of his depth at LFC when it could have actually progressed the club towards it's current goals and not stalled them.

Surely they will also be looking at the great deals we got on players like Suarez, Adam and Enrique. City have wasted mountains of money and wages on players like Robinho, Adebayor etc to finally get a really good squad together. Football isn't an exact science. Kenny and Comolli are maybe a little unfortunate that such a huge judgement call from them has so far gone against them but I don't know a successful manager who hasn't made one or two huge similar errors.

Opr

OwaynOTT · 11-12-2011 12:46AM

Adam is our best summer signing, better than Inspector Clouseau.

And maxi has to be played more often.

whatawaster · 11-12-2011 12:48AM

I think i'm definitely in a minority, but I've seen enough from Carroll this season to make me hopeful he will come good.

I read a highly biased article from Paul Tomkins during the week - but there were some good points in it. Mainly about how strikers like Carroll - tall, strong target men - really peak late in their careers. At Carroll's age Adebayor, Klose, Berbatov, Crouch, Drogba and others were not prolific goalscorers or complete centre-forwards.

We've paid a lot of money, and we either need to persist with him or else be prepared to write off a £25m investment.

He looked desperately short of 3 things for me during the second half of last season and the start of this one - fitness, work-ethic, and confidence. I think he is getting better in all 3 regards.

I hope Carroll spends his entire career here - he has enough talent to be a very good premier league striker. And if he spends 10 years here - he only needs to score a decent amount of goals every season to be considered a good signing.

At times he holds the ball up very well, and seems to show excellent feet in tight situations. On other occasions the ball bounces off his shins on his first touch. As he gets sharper, as he gets more experienced, as he gets more settled, as he scored more goals and gains in confidence we should see his good qualities come to the fore more.

I think it's important that we don't fall into the trap of using his physical presence up front as an excuse to hoof the ball up to him at every opportunity. We were guilty of this a lot last season, and it suits neither the team nor Carroll. He is good in the air, but is not great when isolated. We need our full backs overlapping and we need quality balls into the box for him. He hasn't been great this season, but service to him has not been good generally. He has scored a couple of important goals this season, don't forget.

Let's be honest - if we'd paid 35m for a 22 year old Drogba/Klose/Vieri/Adebayor most would now be disappointed with what they'd got for their money.
Were any of them that much better than Carroll when they were 22?

monkey9 · 11-12-2011 12:49AM

daithijjj wrote: »

Dempsey visits Bellamy country, scores an OG and misses a pen. Karma? its alive and well.

LOL!! I was actually thinking that today. The bloke should have been suspended for that match!!

yesno1234 · 11-12-2011 12:50AM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Adam is our best summer signing, better than Inspector Clouseau.

And maxi has to be played more often.

Not a chance he's been a mediocre signing, but he's starting to improve a lot. I still can't get over how bad his set-piece's are, corners especially, his so called best asset.

Enrique has been a class act and one of the Prem's signings of the season and by far our best summer signing.

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 12:50AM

opr wrote: »

Surely they will also be looking at the great deals we got on players like Suarez, Adam and Enrique. City have wasted mountains of money and wages on players like Robinho, Adebayor etc to finally get a really good squad together. Football isn't an exact science. Kenny and Comolli are maybe a little unfortunate that such a huge judgement call from them has so far gone against them but I don't know a successful manager who hasn't made one or two huge similar errors.

Opr

Suarez, Enrique and Adam were certainly good value, however Downing, Carroll and Henderson were far from that, and the latter 3 make up the bulk of the money that was spent. Henderson has potential, however Downing is not worth that, and never has been, particularly looking at the prices paid for better quality players in his position

The comparison with Man City doesn't hold up IMO, as they can afford to waste as much as they like, Liverpool can't and are paying the price

As you said, no successful manager has a 100% success rate in the transfer market, but of the roughly £100m spent since Dalglish came back, how much of that has been spent well? Not even half IMO

Mr Alan · 11-12-2011 12:54AM

Adam & Enrique have been excellent signings.

I've also been very impressed with Henderson for the last month & think its clear that he is going to be a big player for us over the next few years.

Downing started brightly, but has been disappointing for a while now, however, i do think that people are being too harsh on him.

monkey9 · 11-12-2011 12:55AM

whatawaster wrote: »

I think i'm definitely in a minority, but I've seen enough from Carroll this season to make me hopeful he will come good.

I read a highly biased article from Paul Tomkins during the week - but there were some good points in it. Mainly about how strikers like Carroll - tall, strong target men - really peak late in their careers. At Carroll's age Adebayor, Klose, Berbatov, Crouch, Drogba and others were not prolific goalscorers or complete centre-forwards.

We've paid a lot of money, and we either need to persist with him or else be prepared to write off a £25m investment.

He looked desperately short of 3 things for me during the second half of last season and the start of this one - fitness, work-ethic, and confidence. I think he is getting better in all 3 regards.

I hope Carroll spends his entire career here - he has enough talent to be a very good premier league striker. And if he spends 10 years here - he only needs to score a decent amount of goals every season to be considered a good signing.

At times he holds the ball up very well, and seems to show excellent feet in tight situations. On other occasions the ball bounces off his shins on his first touch. As he gets sharper, as he gets more experienced, as he gets more settled, as he scored more goals and gains in confidence we should see his good qualities come to the fore more.

I think it's important that we don't fall into the trap of using his physical presence up front as an excuse to hoof the ball up to him at every opportunity. We were guilty of this a lot last season, and it suits neither the team nor Carroll. He is good in the air, but is not great when isolated. We need our full backs overlapping and we need quality balls into the box for him. He hasn't been great this season, but service to him has not been good generally. He has scored a couple of important goals this season, don't forget.

Let's be honest - if we'd paid 35m for a 22 year old Drogba/Klose/Vieri/Adebayor most would now be disappointed with what they'd got for their money.
Were any of them that much better than Carroll when they were 22?

Yeah, i'm willing to go along with this. The price tag is something for journalists and Man Utd fans to go on about.

I look upon Carroll as a 22 year old finding his way in the game. The bloke is younger than Jay Spearing!! In general, i haven't been that impressed, but he does have serious potential. As Kenny said, he's been bought for the next five years at least, not five months.

I think he needs to learn to adapt to the Liverpool way. If that takes a couple of seasons, so be it.

monkey9 · 11-12-2011 12:58AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Adam & Enrique have been excellent signings.

I've also been very impressed with Henderson for the last month & think its clear that he is going to be a big player for us over the next few years.

Downing started brightly, but has been disappointing for a while now, however, i do think that people are being too harsh on him.

Completely agree with you on Henderson. I think himself and Shelvey are going to be big big players for Liverpool over the next decade!

K-9 · 11-12-2011 12:58AM

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Adam is our best summer signing, better than Inspector Clouseau.

And maxi has to be played more often.

He has been a great buy definitely. Classy wee player. Loads of criticism about his purchase and he has been very good. Definitely not a one season wonder.

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 12:58AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Adam & Enrique have been excellent signings.

I've also been very impressed with Henderson for the last month & think its clear that he is going to be a big player for us over the next few years.

Downing started brightly, but has been disappointing for a while now, however, i do think that people are being too harsh on him.

I was surprised that it was Henderson's signing and not Downing's for the same money that drew the most criticism (in terms of price). Henderson at least has the potential to realise his value

whatawaster · 11-12-2011 01:03AM

tommyhaas wrote: »

I was surprised that it was Henderson's signing and not Downing's for the same money that drew the most criticism (in terms of price). Henderson at least has the potential to realise his value

And to realise that potential he doesn't ever have to necessarily become a 16m player (or whatever it was we paid for him)

If he is a good squad player for 10 years, then 25m is probably money well spent.

If he is a good first 11 player for 5 years then likewise.

daithijjj · 11-12-2011 01:03AM

The 'twits' here might have seen this already but sure il post it up here.

bradleyorr2 Bradley Orr
Gutted with defeat but a proud proud day for me today! Dreamt about that for 25 years! Thank you for all the well wishers x

K-9 · 11-12-2011 01:05AM

Downing played well today, fitted in with the team, he really should have a couple of goals by now but that is an added bonus.

As Al, Adam and Enrique have been good, Bellamy for a free as well.

Coates hasn't played much but has looked good when he does. It isn't all bad.

Suarez can be a greedy fecker as well, which is grand if your a natural finisher.

Mr Alan · 11-12-2011 01:09AM

Forgot about Bellers, that was a great little piece of business too

Jayob10 · 11-12-2011 01:24AM

K-9 wrote: »

Downing played well today, fitted in with the team, he really should have a couple of goals by now but that is an added bonus.

As Al, Adam and Enrique have been good, Bellamy for a free as well.

Coates hasn't played much but has looked good when he does. It isn't all bad.

Suarez can be a greedy fecker as well, which is grand if your a natural finisher.

Spot on with this statement. His final ball is quite poor also in comparison with Bellamys for example.

Suarez and Maxi do link up very well together though. I think we will see alot more from Suarez when he plays with a striker who is on the same wavelength. Maybe its a case he feels he has to do it all himself and just doesn't rate those around him in the final third.

Henderson, Downing, Adam, Carroll et al can only be judged in the context of the bigger picture. Will Henry and Co. follow these signings up with better quality in January and beyond? If yes, then having a relatively young English/British base is a good thing if supplemented with genuine quality from the continent in positions we are perceived to be lacking.

If Henry and Co. blew their entire load thinking this summers signings would take us to the title in time without further major investment, then i think we may be disappointed. They will obviously be disappointed aswell.

Thats the real question

YouTookMyName · 11-12-2011 01:26AM

Henderson looked good in his proper CM role today. Warming to the lad a lot.

opr · 11-12-2011 01:27AM

tommyhaas wrote: »

Suarez, Enrique and Adam were certainly good value, however Downing, Carroll and Henderson were far from that, and the latter 3 make up the bulk of the money that was spent. Henderson has potential, however Downing is not worth that, and never has been, particularly looking at the prices paid for better quality players in his position

The comparison with Man City doesn't hold up IMO, as they can afford to waste as much as they like, Liverpool can't and are paying the price

Just because they can afford it and we can't doesn't make it any more or less likely we are going to be successful with each transfer. No one goes out with the intent to waste money.

tommyhaas wrote: »

As you said, no successful manager has a 100% success rate in the transfer market, but of the roughly £100m spent since Dalglish came back, how much of that has been spent well? Not even half IMO

Saying he has spent £100m with little improvement in the team is silly in my eyes as in that time the squad has been drastically weakened which is why the spending was needed. Yes we have spent £100m but for the love of god try and look at the situation rationally. The money has been spent on a team that lost Torres and has been without arguably the best attacking midfielder of a generation. Add losing players like Meireles it was always going to hard this season. We need net investment into the squad so we are actually building rather than trying to replenish.

I have already said I feel Carroll was an error and distorts the figures massively. If you take him out of the equation things would look much more balanced.

Opr

th3 s1aught3r · 11-12-2011 01:28AM

I actually thought Suarez tried to make a few more passes today. Couple of occassions he was in around the area he layed a pass whereas before he may have shot. hope he keeps it up.

Jayob10 · 11-12-2011 01:32AM

YouTookMyName wrote: »

Henderson looked good in his proper CM role today. Warming to the lad a lot.

In fairness to Henderson he is more of a technical kind of player, hes no work horse. He will only get better and better.

I think he is quite similar to Frank Lampard in playing style when Lampard was a youngster at West Ham.

By all accounts he is supposedly a superb trainer too, always putting in extra work after training and the like, which is always a good sign, he is dedicated to improving.

niallo27 · 11-12-2011 01:39AM

RT @stocka81: Mourinho has lost more matches against Barcelona than any other side in all competitions. 7 - next is Liverpool 5 #elclasico

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 01:42AM

opr wrote: »

Just because they can afford it and we can't doesn't make it any more or less likely we are going to be successful with each transfer. No one goes out with the intent to waste money.

Saying he has spent £100m with little improvement in the team is silly in my eyes as in that time the squad has been drastically weakened which is why the spending was needed. Yes we have spent £100m but for the love of god try and look at the situation rationally. The money has been spent on a team that lost Torres and has been without arguably the best attacking midfielder of a generation. Add losing players like Meireles it was always going to hard this season. We need net investment into the squad so we are actually building rather than trying to replenish.

I have already said I feel Carroll was an error and distorts the figures massively. If you take him out of the equation things would look much more balanced.

Opr

My point about Man City was that while they can afford to sign a player, and if he's not producing, drop him and buy another. Liverpool obviously can't. £35m to them is only a small percentage of their budget, to Liverpool it isn't

I never said that £100m has been spent without improvement, there's been huge improvement to the quality of the squad relative to last season. My point was that much of that £100m that was spent, was spent poorly. As you say, the Carroll fee distorts the figures, but again there is still signings you would question. Obviously net investment is necessary to crack the top 4, however if the owners are going to invest money, it needs to be spent more wisely then previous money has been. Spending over £70m on three players who add little right now in terms of improvement can't be repeated. The longer the club stays outside the top 4, the harder it will be to get back in as others improve courtesy of the CL money they'll receive

K-9 · 11-12-2011 02:00AM

opr wrote: »

Saying he has spent £100m with little improvement in the team is silly in my eyes as in that time the squad has been drastically weakened which is why the spending was needed. Yes we have spent £100m but for the love of god try and look at the situation rationally. The money has been spent on a team that lost Torres and has been without arguably the best attacking midfielder of a generation. Add losing players like Meireles it was always going to hard this season. We need net investment into the squad so we are actually building rather than trying to replenish.

I have already said I feel Carroll was an error and distorts the figures massively. If you take him out of the equation things would look much more balanced.

Opr

We've lost Torres, Alonso and Masch in the last couple of years. One year of new owners and new investment isn't going to sort that out, particularly with Gerrard out for most of it and Lucas for the rest of the season.

Looking at the team today, 6 have been here a couple of years or more, Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Kuyt and Maxi who was a free. 4 here 5 months and 1 here nearly a year. Its going to take time to get near the standard Spurs have set.

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 02:03AM

K-9 wrote: »

We've lost Torres, Alonso and Masch in the last couple of years. One year of new owners and new investment isn't going to sort that out, particularly with Gerrard out for most of it and Lucas for the rest of the season.

Nobody has said any differently, just questioned whether money could have been spent better

11-12-2011 02:07AM

I hope Maxi stays in the team.

Himself and Suarez have a great understanding (they are good mates off the field by all accounts too).

His positioning and runs are top class too, plus he can play either side.

K-9 · 11-12-2011 02:07AM

tommyhaas wrote: »

Nobody has said any differently, just questioned whether money could have been spent better

Nobody has actually said it either and it gets forgotten just how far we were behind the top 5 last season.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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