Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

kop77 · 10-12-2011 08:40PM

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@luis16suarezLuis Suarez
After a major win that the whole team and the fans deserved, we are all very happy.

Tusky · 10-12-2011 08:48PM

mike65 wrote: »

January shopping list

Cheap and cheerful centre forward
Solid central midfielder
Right winger

hmmm...looks suspiciously like our 2011 shopping list.

monkey9 · 10-12-2011 08:59PM

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Keep your hat on. I'm talking about Spurs in terms of being a smaller club than Liverpool...which they are. That is an indisputable fact.

Maybe I'm from the old stock of LFC fan in that I'm not happy to see my club behind Spurs in the league. City and Chelsea phenomenon is out of our hands, but we've spent enough to be keeping the likes of Spurs in check.

It's not about the size of the club, it's the quality of team that the club currently possess and Spurs have a super team.

Aldershot are a smaller club than Man Utd, but put the Barca players into the Aldershot team and they'd beat Utd!

niallo27 · 10-12-2011 09:01PM

All liverpool need in my opinion is an out and out goalscorer, we are playing soome good football, if we could have taken our chances at home this season we would be well up the table.

tommyhaas · 10-12-2011 09:03PM

How would people feel about just cutting losses on Andy Carroll?

Since signing, he's started just 13 league games of the 33 played, although that doesn't take into account those games for which he was injured. We all know he was never worth the money paid, however at this stage it does seem apparent that the Manager either doesn't rate him, or doesn't feel he fits the system

I'd be of the opinion that the best thing to do would be to let him go at a massive loss, and bring in someone who can do the job. Without an out and out striker, the side are suffering, and games a shocking number of points are being dropped unnecessarily. While there is of course an argument that Carroll needs more time, but that time could well be at the expense of a top 4 finish

Turtyturd · 10-12-2011 09:13PM

monkey9 wrote: »

It's not about the size of the club, it's the quality of team that the club currently possess and Spurs have a super team.

Aldershot are a smaller club than Man Utd, but put the Basle players into the Aldershot team and they'd beat Utd!

FYP

I would be happy enough to cut the losses on Carroll right now if we could guarantee the person brought in would fit right in, problem is we can't and we can't really afford to take another risk. I think in January a proper striker is now a priority over a replacement for Lucas, we create that many chances that if we had a proper finisher we could play a Keegan style 'we'll outscore them' brand of football until the end of the season.

Crazy Horse 6 · 10-12-2011 09:47PM

tommyhaas wrote: »

How would people feel about just cutting losses on Andy Carroll?

Since signing, he's started just 13 league games of the 33 played, although that doesn't take into account those games for which he was injured. We all know he was never worth the money paid, however at this stage it does seem apparent that the Manager either doesn't rate him, or doesn't feel he fits the system

I'd be of the opinion that the best thing to do would be to let him go at a massive loss, and bring in someone who can do the job. Without an out and out striker, the side are suffering, and games a shocking number of points are being dropped unnecessarily. While there is of course an argument that Carroll needs more time, but that time could well be at the expense of a top 4 finish

I think Kenny needs to just sit him down and ask him if his heart is truely with the club or still with Newcastle. Imo it's still in Newcastle and he never wanted to sign for us in the first place. Hope he can prove me wrong but by jesus he needs to get fit pronto because i don't think i've seen a slower forward ever play for the club. He makes Crouch seem Messi like.

Turtyturd · 10-12-2011 10:07PM

Commolli's imposter is on form on twitter again tonight.

Mary "who do you thinks gonna win?" Me "Barca" Mary "No I mean X Factor!" Me "**** OFF OUT MY HOUSE YOU ****E BINT".

SM01 · 10-12-2011 10:29PM

tommyhaas wrote: »

How would people feel about just cutting losses on Andy Carroll?

Since signing, he's started just 13 league games of the 33 played, although that doesn't take into account those games for which he was injured. We all know he was never worth the money paid, however at this stage it does seem apparent that the Manager either doesn't rate him, or doesn't feel he fits the system

I'd be of the opinion that the best thing to do would be to let him go at a massive loss, and bring in someone who can do the job. Without an out and out striker, the side are suffering, and games a shocking number of points are being dropped unnecessarily. While there is of course an argument that Carroll needs more time, but that time could well be at the expense of a top 4 finish

I think people should remember a young Lucas and how with time he grew into the fantastic player he is now and apply the same to Carroll. Forget the price, forget the weight of expectancy and just give him time to develop.

I do think another striker with a solid goal scoring pedigree should be bought and when games are effectively won, bring on Carroll in a 'no pressure' situation and let him enjoy the game and get some confidence.

tommyhaas · 10-12-2011 10:37PM

SM01 wrote: »

I think people should remember a young Lucas and how with time he grew into the fantastic player he is now and apply the same to Carroll. Forget the price, forget the weight of expectancy and just give him time to develop.

I do think another striker with a solid goal scoring pedigree should be bought and when games are effectively won, bring on Carroll in a 'no pressure' situation and let him enjoy the game and get some confidence.

That's all well and good for a player signed for a few million, but the club can't afford to spend what was spent on Carroll and still be without a quality striker. A quality striker is needed, and selling Carroll may be necessary to fund such a signing.

Obviously I'm speculating on what money is available here, and ideally funds would be available to sign another and keep Carroll, bit if its a choice between keeping Carroll and having £10-£15m to spend on another striker, or selling Carroll and having £30mish to spend on another striker, at this stage I'd certainly favour the latter

SM01 · 10-12-2011 11:08PM

tommyhaas wrote: »

That's all well and good for a player signed for a few million, but the club can't afford to spend what was spent on Carroll and still be without a quality striker. A quality striker is needed, and selling Carroll may be necessary to fund such a signing.

Obviously I'm speculating on what money is available here, and ideally funds would be available to sign another and keep Carroll, bit if its a choice between keeping Carroll and having £10-£15m to spend on another striker, or selling Carroll and having £30mish to spend on another striker, at this stage I'd certainly favour the latter

That's assuming you'd have anyone who'd fork out £15m for Carroll which I think you'd be hard-pressed to find at the moment. And if you did, there's no certainty that the player would want to move possibly further away from Newcastle (unless a buyer in the north-east or west could be found.)

There's potential there, I just feel that more time is needed to see if he'll fulfill it. How much time is the big question and there isn't a definitive answer to that but I would expect him to be showing an improvement over the coming months. It's up to the management team to quantify the timeline and how those improvements will manifest on the pitch.

Tusky · 10-12-2011 11:17PM

SM01 wrote: »

I think people should remember a young Lucas and how with time he grew into the fantastic player he is now and apply the same to Carroll. Forget the price, forget the weight of expectancy and just give him time to develop.

I do think another striker with a solid goal scoring pedigree should be bought and when games are effectively won, bring on Carroll in a 'no pressure' situation and let him enjoy the game and get some confidence.

As I said before - you cant compare the signing of a 19-year-old Brazilian who didnt speak the language and was signed on the cheap with the record England signing of all time. The fact is, we had lots of options in the middle when we signed Lucas, and so he was afforded time.

However, we need a goal scoring CF now and so there is more expectation on Andy, and rightly so. Hes also three years old than Lucas was when he came here.

tommyhaas · 10-12-2011 11:23PM

SM01 wrote: »

That's assuming you'd have anyone who'd fork out £15m for Carroll which I think you'd be hard-pressed to find at the moment. And if you did, there's no certainty that the player would want to move possibly further away from Newcastle (unless a buyer in the north-east or west could be found.)

There's potential there, I just feel that more time is needed to see if he'll fulfill it. How much time is the big question and there isn't a definitive answer to that but I would expect him to be showing an improvement over the coming months. It's up to the management team to quantify the timeline and how those improvements will manifest on the pitch.

I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said there, my only concern is that Carroll need's time and Liverpool haven't got that. The longer the club is not in the CL, the less attractive they are to potential signings, the further ahead those in the top 4 move, and the more difficult it is to get back in there

And even at that, there's no guarantee that he'll ever develop into a good enough striker, something he certainly hasn't shown signs of since his move, and that's nearly a year

monkey9 · 10-12-2011 11:41PM

Well, we're not gonna get anywhere near the money back that we paid for Carroll. We probably wouldn't even get half.

My worry with Carroll is that he just doesn't seem to fit into the system and to the way we want to play. He seems out of place.

The price tag is working against him and obviously if he came up through the ranks and broke into the team, we'd have more patience. But even by those standards, he doesn't look up to it.

I remember reading about Tony Hately who the club bought in the late sixties. He was a tall, physical forward who only lasted a season before being moved on because he didn't fit into the team's pass and move style. This could be a similar story with Carroll (Hately was a good player overall, it was just the wrong move for him).

I'd still hang onto Carroll though and give him a couple of seasons before cutting our losses. It's too much money paid just to get rid now.

We definitely need to get another striker in though. If we had someone like Hernandez off Utd in our team, we'd be up in the top four already!

tommyhaas · 10-12-2011 11:45PM

monkey9 wrote: »

I'd still hang onto Carroll though and give him a couple of seasons before cutting our losses. It's too much money paid just to get rid now.

We definitely need to get another striker in though. If we had someone like Hernandez off Utd in our team, we'd be up in the top four already!

This is what it comes down to IMO, is there enough money there to bring in a proven striker while keeping Carroll, or would it be necessary to sell Carroll (assuming he'd go for roughly £15m) to fund a move for someone else

monkey9 · 10-12-2011 11:53PM

tommyhaas wrote: »

This is what it comes down to IMO, is there enough money there to bring in a proven striker while keeping Carroll, or would it be necessary to sell Carroll (assuming he'd go for roughly £15m) to fund a move for someone else

Yeah, it's a hard one to answer because we don't know the actual financial situation. Do we need to sell to buy etc.

But i'd like to think that the club could say to the owners, "look, it's glaringly obvious what we need right now. If we had a Robbie Fowler in that team, we could get a Champions League spot which will bring in a lot of revenue".

Right now, even though there's a few positions that we need to improve on, a goalscorer is a must! I'd like to think we could get one in without having to sell Carroll.

SM01 · 10-12-2011 11:58PM

If anything Lucas was probably more mature and grounded than Carroll is now and it is a loose comparison but players develop differently (I'm wary I'm veering into cliché-land now) and my gut feeling is that more patience is needed with this particular player, as frustrating as it can be watching a team that look blunt up front. He is still relatively young and we've seen glimpses of what he's capable of and I think that warrants more time but the patience needs to be coupled with progess on the players behalf. There comes a time when, if you don't see that progress you need to make the hard decision and sell on but it's too soon for that decision to be made right now (IMO.) I would hope and expect that the management team would have the balls to let Carroll go if the time comes and he's not developing as anticipated.

As for how the finances factor into the situation, perhaps there is a budget there to spend £15-25m on a new striker in January and that would be a realistic 'hope' for January.

If there isn't, but selling Carroll would get us a striker who would give us a real fighting chance for 4th (right now I think we're probably not quite good enough for 4th particularly with injuries, looming suspensions etc) then that hard decision might come sooner. A return to champions league football asap is the absolute priority now above anything else.

I hope this all coherent - I've had a few!

tommyhaas · 10-12-2011 11:58PM

monkey9 wrote: »

Yeah, it's a hard one to answer because we don't know the actual financial situation. Do we need to sell to buy etc.

But i'd like to think that the club could say to the owners, "look, it's glaringly obvious what we need right now. If we had a Robbie Fowler in that team, we could get a Champions League spot which will bring in a lot of revenue".

Right now, even though there's a few positions that we need to improve on, a goalscorer is a must! I'd like to think we could get one in without having to sell Carroll.

That's the thing though, to go to the owners and say that, Dalglish/Comolli would essentially be admitting that they fooked up signing Andy Carroll

Tusky · 10-12-2011 11:59PM

monkey9 wrote: »

But i'd like to think that the club could say to the owners, "look, it's glaringly obvious what we need right now

And like I've said before - why should they trust the club with more money? Downing has been a major disappointment...Carroll is not doing it. The owners would be well within their rights to be cautious in handing over more cash.

d22ontour · 11-12-2011 12:04AM

Owners paid 35m for him, surely they are in their rights to say ' hey we gave you 35m to get this guy, sell him to raise funds' if you want another striker ?

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 12:10AM

SM01 wrote: »

If anything Lucas was probably more mature and grounded than Carroll is now and it is a loose comparison but players develop differently (I'm wary I'm veering into cliché-land now) and my gut feeling is that more patience is needed with this particular player, as frustrating as it can be watching a team that look blunt up front. He is still relatively young and we've seen glimpses of what he's capable of and I think that warrants more time but the patience needs to be coupled with progess on the players behalf. There comes a time when, if you don't see that progress you need to make the hard decision and sell on but it's too soon for that decision to be made right now (IMO.) I would hope and expect that the management team would have the balls to let Carroll go if the time comes and he's not developing as anticipated.

This is what I was getting at earlier. If you're going to spend £35m on a striker, he has to be good enough to slot straight in. Dalglish obviously doesn't feel he is, hence his lack of starts. He see's him in training every day, and so at this stage he mustn't rate him that highly if in a side in dire need of a finisher, Carroll isn't getting a look in on a regular basis

opr · 11-12-2011 12:13AM

In fairness the owners haven't actually handed over much in the way of transfer funds when you consider the outgoing sales.

Opr

niallo27 · 11-12-2011 12:15AM

opr wrote: »

In fairness the owners haven't actually handed over much in the way of transfer funds when you consider the outgoing sales.

Opr

I was just going to say this, carrol and Suarez were nearly a swap for Torres and babble. The carrol money didn't come out of their pockets.

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 12:17AM

opr wrote: »

In fairness the owners haven't actually handed over much in the way of transfer funds when you consider the outgoing sales.

Opr

They haven't no, but they'd still surely question what value was achieved from the money that was spent, and why such further investment is necessary in an area where it really shouldn't be

mike65 · 11-12-2011 12:21AM

I reckon they know that some more readies will have to be spent, Newcastle Utd landed Ba for exactly whatever his personal terms were, Shane Long cost 6 million, there must be a few bargains out there.

Crazy Horse 6 · 11-12-2011 12:24AM

opr wrote: »

In fairness the owners haven't actually handed over much in the way of transfer funds when you consider the outgoing sales.

Opr

I fully expect the owners to back Kenny in the transfer window, they are still finding their feet also just like the team.

mav79 · 11-12-2011 12:25AM

The money has been paid for Carroll, with no chance of making it back so i don't see the point of selling him. He is not like Joe Cole and Voronin on huge salaries and doing nothing on the pitch, Carroll does try and will offer something different when teams are defending in their box and are under siege. We still need a goalscorer but selling carroll is not going to help the team.

daithijjj · 11-12-2011 12:27AM

Dempsey visits Bellamy country, scores an OG and misses a pen. Karma? its alive and well.

tommyhaas · 11-12-2011 12:29AM

mav79 wrote: »

The money has been paid for Carroll, with no chance of making it back so i don't see the point of selling him. He is not like Joe Cole and Voronin on huge salaries and doing nothing on the pitch

The point in selling him would be to fund a move for someone who can do the job he was brought in to do

Also, regarding wages, can't imagine Voronin was on more then Carroll, regardless of the joke the wage bill see's to be

YouTookMyName · 11-12-2011 12:30AM

opr wrote: »

In fairness the owners haven't actually handed over much in the way of transfer funds when you consider the outgoing sales.

Opr

To be fair the money not being spent on funding interest goes a long way into transfer.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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