Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 01:35AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Please don't patronise me.

Homosexuals were breaking the law pre-1993.

If you think it's ok that these men should be treated as criminals for breaking the law then it follows that you think that it was ok for homosexuals to be treated the same for breaking the law.

And that's a strawman - you can't attack the position I actually took regarding the issue I was actually referring to and all it's associated problems so you have to make up another one that you can insert in it's place where you feel you are on stronger ground and attack that instead...classic strawman.

Anyway, where I come from homosexuality was legal pre-1993.

Tigger · 08-12-2011 01:40AM

no entrapment in irish law
cops can offer sex, drugs or even to be hit men an if you agree then you are guilty.

makes sense to me but its true one way or the other.

El Weirdo · 08-12-2011 01:44AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And that's a strawman - you can't attack the position I actually took regarding the issue I was actually referring to and all it's associated problems so you have to make up another one that you can insert in it's place where you feel you are on stronger ground and attack that instead...classic strawman.

Anyway, where I come from homosexuality was legal pre-1993.

Well, I have no interest in attacking you. I just read your post and that part stuck out. I genuinely wanted to know your answer.:)

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 01:55AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Well, I have no interest in attacking you. I just read your post and that part stuck out. I genuinely wanted to know your answer.:)

Not attacking me, my point - I didn't think you were attacking me.

Well, the long and the short of it is: I would expect "law enforcers" to do just that - even regarding laws I don't agree with. Whether laws are still relevant is up to the judiciary to establish...and previously ropey laws against various minorities don't mean that laws in relation to anything else should automatically be ignored, abolished or have no justification...apples and oranges and all that.

Meow_Meow · 08-12-2011 02:01AM

Ahhh ban gardai... any opportunity to get glammed up

kraggy · 08-12-2011 02:07AM

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

You can say they are there by choice but nobody would prostitute themselves for the fun of it they do it because they dont have another choice. What source do you need? Common sense should tell you that. Any guy that goes with a prostitute and thinks that she is completely up for it is delusional.

Common sense?

Do you realise the money that some women make from prostitution? There are high class INDEPENDENT prostitutes making a fortune in major cities around the world.

A guy who goes with a prostitute need not think that she is up for the sex, but he can often rest assured that she is definitely up for the money.

You've been watching too many TV3/ITV/SKY "documentaries" me thinks.

Without doubt, trafficking goes on, and there are many women who are doing it against their will. However, there are many others who are not. By taking it off the streets and regulating it, monitoring the health of the women, regular interviews to ensure safety etc. it will mean the profession is a whole lot safer.

Whatever else, naming all those men achieves nothing. Absolutely nothing. Families lives will be ruined because of this. Just so the Gardai in Limerick can be seen to be doing something. Whereas, they could be seen to be doing a whole range of other, more important things if they wanted.

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 02:11AM

kraggy wrote: »

...Families lives will be ruined because of this...

Is there no end to the victim-hood of those poor men...or, you know, perhaps that's something the men should have considered prior to making the decision to go soliciting for prostitutes?

kraggy · 08-12-2011 02:17AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Is there no end to the victim-hood of those poor men...or, you know, perhaps that's something the men should have considered prior to making the decision to go soliciting for prostitutes?

That's between them and their families.

Why should their kids suffer because they wanted to get their end away? Who knows what's going on at home?

Maybe it's a lonely man who's never had sex before because he's socially unskilled and now wants to try to do what others have been doing for years.

Some of the men are in their 60's. Maybe it's an old man who lost his wife some years back and he is crying out for some some intimacy.

What purpose do you think it serves naming and shaming them in the paper like that?

ottostreet · 08-12-2011 02:22AM

Mickjg wrote: »

One of the men arrested, Gary Stack from Ennis, is the former principal of Ennis National School. Very disgusting to find he has been involved in this.

Why? Is it odd that a grown man should desire sex with a grown woman? It's not like he's soliciting the students. Very Catholic Ireland response.

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 02:27AM

kraggy wrote: »

...What purpose do you think it serves naming and shaming them in the paper like that?

Same reason every other defendant found guilty/plead guilty to a crime is named in the papers, I'd imagine...

Not sure why you think this lot should get special treatment and their blushes spared when lots of other families have to live with the guilt and shame of their relatives making stupid choices and then being named and shamed for it...

kraggy · 08-12-2011 02:34AM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Same reason every other defendant found guilty/plead guilty to a crime is named in the papers, I'd imagine...

Not sure why you think this lot should get special treatment and their blushes spared when lots of other families have to live with the guilt and shame of their relatives making stupid choices and then being named and shamed for it...

Because very often 2 adults meet to have consenting sex for money. No harm done to anyone.

A drink driver, burglar, violent person can do harm to others.

It's not that complicated.

I've never been nor ever will be with a prostitute but for some people it's a necessary service. Some men are lonely, don't have confidence but still have the physical needs of others. That's why it should be taken off the streets and regulated.

Ickle Magoo · 08-12-2011 02:38AM

kraggy wrote: »

Because very often 2 adults meet to have consenting sex for money. No harm done to anyone.

And sometimes there is harm done - and often there is no way of knowing if harm is being done regulation or no - that's why it's not a lovely neat black and white, I'm right & you're wrong, issue/law/policy/whatever.

Mickjg · 08-12-2011 02:52AM

ottostreet wrote: »

Very Catholic Ireland response.

From an atheist.

The man was a teacher for many years teaching students right from wrong. Whatever people's opinions about prostitution, he knew he was engaging in an illegal act with someone who could have been smuggled into the country or could be in situation where she has a pimp controlling her. Nothing excuses his actions.

My opinion on prostitution is that it will never go away and that we need to do what is best for the women who will decide to enter prostitution. If legalisation is the best way to do this then I think we should legalise it, but if cracking down on the sale is sex is what is more likely to protect women then that is what must be done. The protection of women should be first and foremost, not tax and not policing cost.

For all this man could have known the woman he approached could have been smuggled into the country as a sex slave. She just so happened to be a under cover cop.

ottostreet · 08-12-2011 03:50AM

Mickjg wrote: »

From an atheist.

The man was a teacher for many years teaching students right from wrong. Whatever people's opinions about prostitution, he knew he was engaging in an illegal act with someone who could have been smuggled into the country or could be in situation where she has a pimp controlling her. Nothing excuses his actions.

My opinion on prostitution is that it will never go away and that we need to do what is best for the women who will decide to enter prostitution. If legalisation is the best way to do this then I think we should legalise it, but if cracking down on the sale is sex is what is more likely to protect women then that is what must be done. The protection of women should be first and foremost, not tax and not policing cost.

For all this man could have known the woman he approached could have been smuggled into the country as a sex slave. She just so happened to be a under cover cop.

Good man, not that many atheists out there in this country...good to see. I can see where you are coming from with your opinion, but I think you're placing too much stock in the conscience of the horny male. This man wanted sex, and he was clearly not going to get it for free somewhere, because he solicited what he thought a prostitute. By doing so, he has also shown that he is more than likely not a rapist, as he is seeking to buy, rather than take, the service that he requires.

Circumstances have arose to make this man think about hiring a prostitute..the morality of what they do for a living, or the channels through how they came about to be providing the service, are unlikely to be of concern to someone seeking their service. Maybe afterwards, after the 'urge' is taken care of, he may have stopped to consider the circumstances of the woman he hired, but shame and his position within the community are unlikely to have made him ever voice those concerns.

It all points towards regulation and legalisation of the business. There are no winners from this Garda operation. I'm normally on the side of the Gardai, but this just smacks of going after an easy target, rather than tackling the more serious criminals and problems that Limerick has.

corktina · 08-12-2011 04:34AM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

6 out of the 21 names are Eastern European/Russiany. Interesting. Either they must be more used to paying for s&x, just thought they were far enough from home to get away with it, or are even less likely to be in regular relationships that the Irish guys (for whatever reason).

Hmmmmmm.

names such as Khan Weavitoff are not necessarily Eastern European, just a mix up in the gards notes.

amacachi · 08-12-2011 04:58AM

Mindkiller wrote: »

So wait, when Bodie pleaded entrapment in season 3 of The Wire and got off, was it really entrapment?

Was it not contrapment?

Mickjg · 08-12-2011 05:15AM

ottostreet wrote: »

Good man, not that many atheists out there in this country...good to see.

Glad to see this pleases you.

I can see where you are coming from with your opinion, but I think you're placing too much stock in the conscience of the horny male. This man wanted sex, and he was clearly not going to get it for free somewhere, because he solicited what he thought a prostitute. By doing so, he has also shown that he is more than likely not a rapist, as he is seeking to buy, rather than take, the service that he requires.

You seem to be saying that just because a man is horny it's okay for him to go out there just find sex. Just because he didn't go and rape someone doesn't make him a good man.
This is not the same as, say, wanting a burger and going out and buying a burger instead of stealing one.

Circumstances have arose to make this man think about hiring a prostitute..the morality of what they do for a living, or the channels through how they came about to be providing the service, are unlikely to be of concern to someone seeking their service. Maybe afterwards, after the 'urge' is taken care of, he may have stopped to consider the circumstances of the woman he hired, but shame and his position within the community are unlikely to have made him ever voice those concerns.

The fact that he (according to you) didn't take into consideration the circumstances these women may be in just makes him look like a man who doesn't care about others. If he did take into consideration the women's circumstances then that just shows that he knows that these women are in a bad way but he's gonna use them anyway.

It all points towards regulation and legalisation of the business. There are no winners from this Garda operation. I'm normally on the side of the Gardai, but this just smacks of going after an easy target, rather than tackling the more serious criminals and problems that Limerick has.

Limerick has many problems, prostitution is one of them. It's a problem anywhere it exists.

You can't defend men's horniness when we are all aware that many of these women come from less than desirable backgrounds. Some of them may have been smuggled into the country for sex, others may be under the control of a pimp. But who cares? Just so long as a brutha can get some, right?

ottostreet · 08-12-2011 05:30AM

Mickjg wrote: »

Glad to see this pleases you.

You seem to be saying that just because a man is horny it's okay for him to go out there just find sex. Just because he didn't go and rape someone doesn't make him a good man.
This is not the same as, say, wanting a burger and going out and buying a burger instead of stealing one.

The fact that he (according to you) didn't take into consideration the circumstances these women may be in just makes him look like a man who doesn't care about others. If he did take into consideration the women's circumstances then that just shows that he knows that these women are in a bad way but he's gonna use them anyway.

Limerick has many problems, prostitution is one of them. It's a problem anywhere it exists.

You can't defend men's horniness when we are all aware that many of these women come from less than desirable backgrounds. Some of them may have been smuggled into the country for sex, others may be under the control of a pimp. But who cares? Just so long as a brutha can get some, right?

Well, unless the prostitute he has hired tells him of her circumstances, how is he to know whether she has been trafficked or doing what she does because to her, its a decent way of making some easy money? Prostitution is not something that is going away, and just because a man deals with kids during his day job, does not make him a bad man for wanting a prostitute for some physical intimacy. By the way, this is the only point that I was really disagreeing with, I realise there is a general 'right' and 'wrong' consensus to the moralities of prostitution on this thread, I'm only saying that the fact he was a primary school headmaster doesn't make what he did any worse than any of the other men, and I don't think he deserves to be singled out.

Seachmall · 08-12-2011 08:55AM

ottostreet wrote: »

I'm only saying that the fact he was a primary school headmaster doesn't make what he did any worse than any of the other men, and I don't think he deserves to be singled out.

This is absolutely correct and I know this for a fact because I know the man, he was my primary school teacher and I know him personally from elsewhere too. I went through some tough **** in Primary School with bullying and if it wasn't for him it would have been hell. He was there when I needed help and gave me a boot up the arse when I stepped out of line.

You can criticize him for the prostitute, and for the fact he is married, all ye want but if you think it in any way reflects his credibility when dealing with kids ye are ridiculously off the mark. From that respect he is highly respected by his students, and their parents, without a doubt. Or at least he was before this ****storm.

EKClarke · 08-12-2011 08:59AM

MarkR wrote: »

Not entrapment if the gardai merely provided a favourable opportunity for the guys to get caught.

Loved the way they listed out the names of the streets that prostitutes can be found on! *Throws notebook behind couch*

That's not a good thing. Police in England listed the name of a street where child prostitutes could be found for as little as £1. People flocked to to the place.

syklops · 08-12-2011 09:12AM

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

6 out of the 21 names are Eastern European/Russiany. Interesting. Either they must be more used to paying for s&x, just thought they were far enough from home to get away with it, or are even less likely to be in regular relationships that the Irish guys (for whatever reason).

Hmmmmmm.

Or come from countries where its not illegal, and didn't know it was here.

MyKeyG · 08-12-2011 01:44PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How do you know which is which tho? How can we tell that the prostitute being procured is drug free, pimp free, not trafficked or coerced in any way, shape or form? Given the issues they have even in countries where prostitution is legal and regulated, I don't think you can.

Or if they're a Guard for that matter. Granted we don't know, which is why this case should have been dealt with on its own merits and not under the generalised assumption that all prostitution links directly to misery. I don't know all the perpetrators involved but I know for a fact one of them is no drug dealer nor does he commit heinous acts of violence.

That's lovely and all but I think it's more than a little naive/blinkered to waive the associations one has to the other in reality...

I'm not waiving any associations. I clearly stated, as you quoted, that they are associated just not always.

They broke the law, it may be a law you don't agree with but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as criminals when they break the law.

I have no problem with that. Yes they broke the law and yes if we were all to be honest with ourselves we would agree that having been caught they were deserved of charge. However my beef is with how Garda resources are being used especially in a city torn apart by violence connected to issues more important than prostitution. Prostitution isn't putting guns in these peoples hands.

I don't disagree with the sentiments - I can't help but think 60 men in Limerick being arrested for solicitation is really not going to make a dent in the social and human issues related to prostitution...but then it IS better than sticking fingers in ears and convincing ourselves that men prowling the streets to find women they can pay to have sex with them is unrelated to a whole raft of issues and just good old adult fun...

Of course but if you're going to take your fingers out of your ears and do something then get to the route cause not spending Garda time on picking up Joe Bloggs looking for some 'love you long time GI'.

Listen morally as well as legally you're right. I just have a bee in my bonnet about the crimes the Guards do use to add to their arrest statistics while the animals get away.

scholar007 · 08-12-2011 03:49PM

oirishguy wrote: »

I live in a country where prostitution is legal, right across from my bedroom window there is a brothel. If people want to pay for sex and priovided that it is not human trafficking, is underage or involves animals then so what. They are consenting adults. It is a profession that has been around before laws were even written and will remain no matter what they do. Naming and shaming these guys was ridiculous, it has only caused harm to their families, innocent people in this, for what, so the Gardai can look like they have taken their heads out of their arses and done something for a change. Why not focus the taxpayers money on something like tackling a criminal organization, arresting drug dealers etc instead of making examples of people, who apart from this indiscretion, are normal members in society.

Because from reading the earlier part of the thread - it aoppears that it was tolerated to a certain degree and money was being made but then more and more "ladies of the night" wanted a piece of the action and it spread and became in your face and then it got publicity and as we know when something gets publicity the garda sicholonis have to act - Plain and simple!

I would image it wasn't just a case that the Super in Limerick woke up one morning and said, I have some good looking ban gardaí on my hands - how can I best utilise their talents?

Jalla · 08-12-2011 04:29PM

I hear people are trying to boycot The Sun Newspaper because a former principal tried to get his dick wet?

Seachmall · 08-12-2011 04:32PM

Jalla wrote: »

I hear people are trying to boycot The Sun Newspaper because a former principal tried to get his dick wet?

What's this about then? Link?

Jalla · 08-12-2011 04:40PM

Seachmall wrote: »

What's this about then? Link?

Apparently people have set up some Facebook pages to boycot The Sun, there should be links online.

Seachmall · 08-12-2011 04:45PM

Jalla wrote: »

Apparently people have set up some Facebook pages to boycot The Sun, there should be links online.

Can't find anything on it. Is it related to the prostitution thing?

Jalla · 08-12-2011 04:47PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Can't find anything on it. Is it related to the prostitution thing?

Yes, in response to our former principal being attacked through their paper. I doubt it will have much effect.

tfitzgerald · 08-12-2011 04:48PM

I think this is a joke . The guards should be spending their time doing better things than catching a 67 year old man trying to have a bit of fun. If they think they are going to stop this sort of thing by embarrassing a few men and their families a few weeks before Christmas then the are deluded

scholar007 · 08-12-2011 05:01PM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I think this is a joke . The guards should be spending their time doing better things than catching a 67 year old man trying to have a bit of fun. If they think they are going to stop this sort of thing by embarrassing a few men and their families a few weeks before Christmas then the are deluded

Do you not think this is a good use of Garda resources? Arresting and shaming the evil men who wanted to get their leg over with ladies who are only too keen to consent and relieve (sorry) them of their cash.

This must be the most spectacular bust in the history of Limerick. I expect the ban gardaí involved will each receive a gold scott medal and be fast tracked for promotion for their bravery in donning skimpy attire on a cold wet winter evening by the Shannon. My God they could have caught a very serious cold!

Forget gangland and gun crime and drugs and robbery and tiger kidnapping and white collar crime and fraud and the recession -the most serious threat to our democracy and way of life is consenting adults engaging in a financial transaction for the provision of a service. :rolleyes:

Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

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