Atheism causes creationism

swampgas · 02-12-2011 06:53PM

Just to comment on a specific point:

Newsite wrote: »

That He demands nothing more than that we believe and trust in Him?

That's one HUGE demand right there - that I believe and trust in an entity that:

every fabric of my being tells me doesn't exist
if he did exist, would be repellent to me

So God demands nothing more than I abandon all rational thought and start believing and trusting in a fictional character that I find abhorrent?

Ain't gonna happen.

MagicMarker · 02-12-2011 06:56PM

swampgas wrote: »

Just to comment on a specific point:

That's one HUGE demand right there - that I believe and trust in an entity that:
every fabric of my being tells me doesn't exist

if he did exist, would be repellent to me

So God demands nothing more than I abandon all rational thought and start believing and trusting in a fictional character that I find abhorrent?

Ain't gonna happen.

Don't forget butt sex.

old hippy · 02-12-2011 06:57PM

When you think about it, this God character is a wrong un. A vengeful, spiteful, smiting, homophobic being who demands our trust & belief - bugger off, God!

Knasher · 02-12-2011 07:10PM

Newsite wrote: »

That is a flawed analogy because it's not actually like that at all.

The ginger kid is a ginger because of his DNA - it's not something he can control in any way shape or form. It's not something that he can influence. I would love to be over 6 foot tall but it's not going to ever happen, because of my DNA.

Well seeing as you seem to think you have such a deep understanding of homosexuality, I have two questions to ask you. Firstly if it is a choice, then what exactly do you think is the motivation to choose homosexuality, because I'd imagine it would have to be a pretty big payoff in order to risk losing all of your friends and family and being condemned (sometimes to death) by, unfortunately, the majority of societies in the world.
Secondly if homosexuality is a choice, then it must be within your capabilities to choose it. So honestly, do you think you simply decide to no longer find women attractive and like men instead?

And why does your religion take the homosexual rules so seriously anyway? I've never heard of tattoo bashers, or Sunday worker bashers even though these are also condemned. What exactly is it about gay sex that christians find so very important, so important that it is worth breaking up families or even murder in order to enforce?

Newsite wrote: »

You don't choose Hell by being flawed, you choose it because you don't want to hear His words. You don't want anything to do with Him. This is the state of the natural man, until something come along to compel you out of it (God's grace). This could be a million different things, but God's hand is in it when it happens.

I was a christian for 25 years, in that time I would have been more than happy to hear his words. At any point he could have provided, even an extremely subjective (and believers are only too willing to claim they have been provided with this evidence, so there is no reason I couldn't have been similarly provided with it), scrap of evidence and I would have accepted it. Even the most subjective and obviously facile piece of evidence would probably have been enough to play into conformational bias and convince me. I was absolutely primed to believe. Yet nothing.

No doubt you will tell me that I just didn't try hard enough to believe, that I really have to force myself to have absolutely no doubt in my mind (at which point actual evidence becomes redundant, kinda what you're going for, I'd guess) before I can actually believe. At a certain point, most theists love to resort to the whole "brainwash yourself" standard of evidence. But surely if an omniscient god existed, he would know when I would reach the limits of my ability to believe on faith and provide a reason to think I'm not deluding myself, does the fact he didn't imply that he is really uncaring or impotent or nonexistent? In any case why would I have to delude myself in this life in order to pass his test? Is is beyond his power to forgive me after I die?

Newsite wrote: »

Actually...ok I've just spotted a post on another thread relating to Boards.ie, and around the 'terms of use', so to speak. It could probably apply to our relationship with God as well! Where 'your freedom of speech' is your indignation that the One who made the universe and everything in it, and gave you this planet to enjoy should dare to lay down a few ground rules in the process!!

This is a private website. You've been kindly given access to it, all you have to do is follow a simple set of rules which are there to stop muppets ruining it for everyone else. I never understood why this is such a problem for some. It's not rocket science. Some people feel the need to act like they own the place and when they get caught, they cry out that their freedom of speech is being infringed upon.

Now see this is a prime example of a flawed analogy. Not only have the various people behind boards demonstrated their existence and the consequences of breaking their rules. But they also give you the option of not obeying their rules, just so long as you don't participate in their site. Your supposedly loving god, on the other hand, couldn't even muster the ability to demonstrate his existence to anybody beyond an illiterate desert tribe (the chinese had the ability to write at this point), who eventually recorded it in a language which then died out (for an omniscient being, he doesn't display a lot of foresight) and who supposedly torments people who don't obey his, mostly nonsensical, rules, for all eternity.

If boards ever starts taking policy from your god, then I'm out of here.

Simtech · 02-12-2011 07:11PM

Newsite wrote: »

Who would judge that game?

It seems very much like you would! :rolleyes:

Knasher · 02-12-2011 07:19PM

Newsite wrote: »

There is a massive amount of self-congratulatory stuff and grandiose, greatly misconceived soap-boxing in that post.

I couldn't disagree more, I see a lot more merit in people taking pride in the good things they do in the world and inspiring those around them to be better people. Than those who would try to convince those around them to display humility so they don't have to feel guilty for not doing enough.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 08:46PM

Simtech wrote: »

It seems very much like you would! :rolleyes:

Really? Cos it seemed like I was being the one being judged there

Newsite · 02-12-2011 08:47PM

Knasher wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more, I see a lot more merit in people taking pride in the good things they do in the world and inspiring those around them to be better people. Than those who would try to convince those around them to display humility so they don't have to feel guilty for not doing enough.

For real?

Knasher · 02-12-2011 08:52PM

Newsite wrote: »

For real?

Yes.
For real.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 08:55PM

old hippy wrote: »

When you think about it, this God character is a wrong un. A vengeful, spiteful, smiting, homophobic being who demands our trust & belief - bugger off, God!

Yes indeed. You've hardened your heart against Him, so you don't believe. You love the world more, your own interests in it, and everything that's about you and the world and this very short life - rather than Him, and your soul. If you did know Him, you would think differently. But since you hate Him and reject Him, you have zero belief, zero reverence, zero respect.

Newsite · 02-12-2011 08:56PM

Knasher wrote: »

Yes.
For real.

Your post was complete and utter nonsense.

Simtech · 02-12-2011 08:59PM

Newsite wrote: »

There is a massive amount of self-congratulatory stuff and grandiose, greatly misconceived soap-boxing in that post.

:eek: Your words mate. Just calling it as I see it.

I'm sure you are being judged too but let's not pretend you're as far above it all as you would have us believe.

Can I ask, do you have doubts about the existence of God? Also, do you believe the creationist theories about how we came to be?

swampgas · 02-12-2011 09:01PM

Newsite wrote: »

Yes indeed. You've hardened your heart against Him, so you don't believe. You love the world more, your own interests in it, and everything that's about you and the world and this very short life - rather than Him, and your soul. If you did know Him, you would think differently. But since you hate Him and reject Him, you have zero belief, zero reverence, zero respect.

How can you harden your heart against something you don't believe exists?

Or, could one argue that you have hardened your heart against Allah, say or Zeus?

Knasher · 02-12-2011 09:03PM

Newsite wrote: »

Your post was complete and utter nonsense.

You asked the question "For real?" and I responded equally as succinctly, you gave no indication of what part of my reasoning you thought to be unreasonable so I could expand on it and explain myself, or gave any reasons why I should reconsider, or cared to respond to any of the posts I've actually taken the time to put effort into.

You typed two words, so all you got back was a three word response.

Simtech · 02-12-2011 09:19PM

Simtech wrote: »

Can I ask, do you have doubts about the existence of God? Also, do you believe the creationist theories about how we came to be?

Are these questions too difficult to answer Newsite? It seems to me as if they are relatively straightforward requiring perhaps no more than one word answers, though do feel free to elaborate as much as you will.

Will you answer Newsite?

Newsite · 02-12-2011 09:20PM

Knasher wrote: »

You asked the question "For real?" and I responded equally as succinctly, you gave no indication of what part of my reasoning you thought to be unreasonable so I could expand on it and explain myself, or gave any reasons why I should reconsider, or cared to respond to any of the posts I've actually taken the time to put effort into.

You typed two words, so all you got back was a three word response.

You're implying that I am talking about humility just so I don't have to feel guilty about not doing enough myself. That's what you said - without knowing me or knowing what I do or don't do.

And by extension, you're saying that those who would endorse what I say are also doing it so they don't have to feel 'so guilty'. Are you willing to stand over that?

Simtech · 02-12-2011 09:33PM

Neurologist Robert A. Burton, MD has written a gem of a book: On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You’re Not. His thesis is that “Certainty and similar states of ‘knowing what we know’ arise out of involuntary brain mechanisms that, like love or anger, function independently of reason.” Your certainty that you are right has nothing to do with how right you are.
A “feeling of knowing” probably had an evolutionary advantage. If we are certain, we can act on that certainty rather than hesitating like Hamlet. Certainty makes us feel good: it rewards learning, and it keeps us from wasting time thinking too much; but it impairs flexibility.
Richard Feynman said,

“I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things… It doesn’t frighten me.”

On the other hand, many people, especially religious fundamentalists, can’t deal with uncertainty. They demand absolute answers and cling to their certainties even in the face of contrary evidence. Why are people so different in their need for certainty? We know there is a gene associated with risk-taking and novelty-seeking. Burton makes an intriguing suggestion: could genetic differences make individuals get different degrees of pleasure out of the feeling of knowing?
There is a “hidden layer” in our brain whose neurons are influenced by genetics, personal experience, hormones, and chemistry. These factors influence all our thought processes without our conscious knowledge. We would like to think that if everyone had the same information they would necessarily reach the same conclusion, but that just isn’t so. There is no such thing as pure reason. “Reason is not disembodied, as the tradition has largely held, but arises from the nature of our brains, bodies, and bodily experiences.”
The autonomous rational mind is a myth. The concepts of the self and free will are innate useful fictions that allow us to function. Modern neurophysiology tells us our decisions are made subconsciously before we are aware of deciding.

So it seems that acceptance or rejection of the God idea, is less about free will than you would have us believe Newsite.

I still await your response to my questions, though I imagine I will have to continue to wait. I guess you can ask questions of others but the same is not allowed of others to you. This much is beginning to seem self evident.

Knasher · 02-12-2011 10:47PM

Newsite wrote: »

You're implying that I am talking about humility just so I don't have to feel guilty about not doing enough myself. That's what you said - without knowing me or knowing what I do or don't do.

And by extension, you're saying that those who would endorse what I say are also doing it so they don't have to feel 'so guilty'. Are you willing to stand over that?

I can see how you may interpret it in that way, and for any offense I caused you over that, I apologize. But allow me to clarify my statement and say yes I do stand over this. My view is that the endorsement of humility in society in general (an I am in no means immune to this) is down to personal feelings of inadequacy when hearing of other people achievements. Now for things where the feelings of inadequacy can have no positive outcome, then yes humility is absolutely a virtue. However, in my view, situations where hearing the charitable works of others my inspire people to be charitable in turn or even just feel better about humanity, humility is a false virtue.

That is my personal view, and I stand by it.

Zombrex · 03-12-2011 01:55AM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Explain how?

I do volunteer down at the soup kitchen in Cork to help the homeless. I also just started Volunteer work the Civil Defence forces, I'll be working in the mountain rescue team.

I've given 3 speeches for Un-Married Fathers rights, each one to a standing ovation from the crowd. At two of them were members of Dail, including the Minister for Families, and the Minister of Education.

I worked at a support group for teenagers suffering abuse, both physical and mental. In a few cases, they were gay teens who were being bullied and beaten for the simple reason they were gay, in more than one case people did it because the Bible says it's an Abomination.

I've spoken up for Gay rights here in Ireland, and that no person should be treated as a second-class citizen because Christianity is an archaic, hatefull and bigoted religion.

And I do all this while raising my children, paying my taxes and contributing to society seeking equality for all, regardless of gender, sexuality, religion or race.

I do all this because it's right, and I enjoy it. I don't need to hear magical voices or read a book.

Psssh .. show off

Zombrex · 03-12-2011 02:10AM

Newsite wrote: »

You know it's better to keep your good works as secret as possible? That even the Bible says the same? And your average man in the street would likely concur?

Er, have you even read the Bible?

The Bible says do not do good works or give to charity in order to be seen doing so by others (ie don't show off)

Matthew 6
1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

Instead let your good deeds speak for themselves, let yourself be light to inspire others to also do good deeds.

Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

If you think the Bible tells people to keep their good deeds hidden you clearly haven't read it.

marienbad · 03-12-2011 04:09AM

old hippy wrote: »

Who's voice do I need to hear? Siddhartha? Vishnu? Allah? God? Lucifer? Santa?

How will I realise I need to hear some invented deity's voice? Will I be sitting in the bathtub? Cooking up a storm in the kitchen? In the middle of a romp? When? Where? Why?

Why do I need someone to tell me how to live?

I notice Newsite you just skip over the posts that you don't like. How about an answer to this and this time try and answer the key point and not give some more wishy-washy-waffle.

So who's voice do I need to hear ? and as a supplementary question how do we tell who is who ( just in case we are hearing more that one and the men in white coats have not come for us yet)

Newsite · 03-12-2011 09:20PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

I do keep it too myself. I never brag about these things, in fact the only time I really talk about it is when asking friends if they'd mind giving a hand over the holidays and donating what they can.
I pointed these aspects out simply as part of this discussion, and it was all relevant.

If you don't brag about it, why bring it up at all? You deemed it to be relevant yourself though. You went on a mini-rant bashing Christianity on the one hand, and on the other lauding your charitable efforts. It was 'religion is so bad, look at me doing all this great stuff while bashing religion'. Why did you bring the topic of your good works up at all?

The reason I said your post was full of misconceptions and soap-boxing, is because that is an accurate assessment. Do you reckon there are no Christian people out there who also do good works?

Sonics2k wrote: »

I do get some personal satisfaction from it yes. I am happy that I'm making an effort to improve peoples lives, or at least make sure they have a blanket on them to sleep.
But I do it mainly because I'm aware of my good fortunes, and I don't like living in a world where people are abandoned and forgotten.

Well that's great, and I'm glad you do. But positioning it in opposition to 'big bad awful religion' is a bit silly, no? Especially when religion and Christianity has done a massive amount in helping people in the terms of which you specify. Salvation Army? St. Vincent de Paul? Etc, etc.

Sonics2k wrote: »

I don't believe in God. Well, to be more precise, I don't give a flying donkey if a God(s) are real. I live my life how I see fit, and do what I can to help others.
I have no trust in a God that allows billions of people to die of starvation, suffering in pain, children going blind, whilst people like you sit at home on their computer talking about the good grace of the Bible and Jesus.

More broad-brush soap-boxing. Do you realise that people living their lives 'as they see fit' is pretty much the reason for the terrible things you describe above?

Billions die of starvation - greedy First World? Greedy African dictators who 'do what they feel like'. I'm pretty sure Pol Pot did what he saw fit. I'm pretty sure Hitler did what he saw fit, coming up with his own morality to boot. Stalin, Mugabe...all doing what what they saw fit, according to their own human standard. Not God's standard which stands in complete opposition to what they stand for, 'doing what they see fit'.

Now clearly you're not in their category, but you can see how the point of human standard vs God's standard still stands. And no good work in the world can bridge that gap, no matter how good it is, or who good you feel about doing it. They have no merit if you stand opposed to God.

Sonics2k wrote: »

The bible calls homosexuals an abomination. Some Christians believe they should all be wiped out, killed, beaten, raped or jailed.
I know a young woman, from Co Clare who was hospitalized by a group of Catholics (in their 40's) because she was a "dyke".

Again, huge soap-boxing and just massively wrong...and it says a lot by extension about the several people who thanked your post. Some Christians believe they should be....they're prob not really Christians looking at it seriously are they? Which might lead you to conclude that they Christianity does not support what they are about. If a Christian happily commits or endorses murder, reckon they might not be Christian, but just some regular Joe or Josephine Soap?

The Bible does not call homosexuals an abomination - you talk about me 'twisting things to suit my agenda' below - but yet you get this simple thing wrong yourself in your rush to twist things yourself - knowingly or unknowingly. 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind - it is abomination' - this is because God's plan - as evidenced in his matching man with woman (see how perfectly they fit together, even anatomically!) - is for one man, one woman, sharing their life together and enjoying sex within those bonds of love and commitment. Therefore, the idea of a man with another man is a total corruption of this plan - hence 'abomination'.

Sonics2k wrote: »

Read it as you will.
Just like every other post, you'll twist it to your own means and refuse to acknowledge just how much spite, venom, bile and hatred Religion brings the world.

All I'm asking is that you maybe take a breath before you post and think about it first - the 'spite, venom, bile' is not the essence of Christianity - it's the output of those who twist it to suit their own hateful agenda, from Christian brothers beating the cr*p out of kids to George Bush declaring war on 'terror'. You know there's a difference between that, and the message of Christianity.

That's all I'm asking you to consider before you vent your thoughts. I think it would make for a better discussion all round too.

Newsite · 03-12-2011 09:24PM

Knasher wrote: »

I can see how you may interpret it in that way, and for any offense I caused you over that, I apologize. But allow me to clarify my statement and say yes I do stand over this. My view is that the endorsement of humility in society in general (an I am in no means immune to this) is down to personal feelings of inadequacy when hearing of other people achievements. Now for things where the feelings of inadequacy can have no positive outcome, then yes humility is absolutely a virtue. However, in my view, situations where hearing the charitable works of others my inspire people to be charitable in turn or even just feel better about humanity, humility is a false virtue.

That is my personal view, and I stand by it.

No offense taken, and thanks for the explanation. I just think you are wrong, and I disagree. People shouldn't need hearing of others' good works to feel inspired themselves, they should feel inspired in any case.

It's also definitely worth pointing out that God acting in your heart will cause you to want to do more good works, and to delight in them. That is the Holy Spirit acting on your heart, a desire to do good following on from this, not standing apart from it.

Zombrex · 03-12-2011 09:26PM

Newsite wrote: »

If you don't brag about it, why bring it up at all?

Because you told him he needed your religion to tell him how to live his life to be a better person :rolleyes:

Pointing out that no actually he is doing fine without your religion is not bragging, it is demonstrating the falsehood of your argument.

Newsite · 03-12-2011 09:30PM

marienbad wrote: »

I notice Newsite you just skip over the posts that you don't like. How about an answer to this and this time try and answer the key point and not give some more wishy-washy-waffle.

So who's voice do I need to hear ? and as a supplementary question how do we tell who is who ( just in case we are hearing more that one and the men in white coats have not come for us yet)

I limit my time on Boards, so I get to as many as I can

The short answer is that there is nothing you can do to have faith - it is a gift from God. It is all of God. And there is only One. But knowing his standard, and disregarding and mocking them, could be seen as a surefire way of not wanting to have anything to do with Him.

'How will I realise I need to hear His voice' - the answer is that you were made by God, you are 100% certain to die some day - could be tomorrow, could be 50 years from now - and the choice is open to you, laid out in Scripture, as to what the choice is. You already realise it, by virtue of the fact that you can read, and you know the message of the Bible. Otherwise you wouldn't even be posting here. In fact, you know it better as atheists than those who have zero to do with the matters being discussed day-in, day-out here.

Newsite · 03-12-2011 09:32PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Because you told him he needed your religion to tell him how to live his life to be a better person :rolleyes:

Pointing out that no actually he is doing fine without your religion is not bragging, it is demonstrating the falsehood of your argument.

I already explained about the difference between your standard and God's standard, if you wanted to read my reply above in context, instead of clipping a tiny part of it and using a silly emoticon.

Simtech · 03-12-2011 09:34PM

Newsite wrote: »

I limit my time on Boards, so I get to as many as I can

I appreciate that your time is valuable. I hope you can find the time to address the questions and points I put to you yesterday.

Zombrex · 03-12-2011 09:37PM

Newsite wrote: »

I already explained about the difference between your standard and God's standard, if you wanted to read my reply above in context, instead of clipping a tiny part of it and using a silly emoticon.

I read your reply, you said Sonic2k was bragging and showing off and that if he was really pious he would do his good works in secret.

I'm pointing out he wasn't bragging or showing off (and as I pointed out in a previous post the Bible doesn't call for good works to be done in secret). This is a dishonest and rather nasty false interpretation of what he was doing in order to salvage your already discredited argument.

He was rather responding to a charge you levelled that he and all atheists need your religion in order to know how to live their life and be better people.

Frankly judging by your nasty dismissive comments on his charity work, which he does freely without any guilt trip from a religion, I think Sonic2k is already a better person than you so perhaps instead of focusing on others you should be focusing on bringing your own life up to the standard of a godless heath such as Sonic2k.

As someone cleverer than me once said "The biggest problem with Christianity is that it produces an awful lot of a Christians"

Newsite · 03-12-2011 09:49PM

Zombrex wrote: »

I read your reply, you said Sonic2k was bragging and showing off and that if he was really pious he would do his good works in secret.

I'm pointing out he wasn't bragging or showing off (and as I pointed out in a previous post the Bible doesn't call for good works to be done in secret). This is a dishonest and rather nasty false interpretation of what he was doing in order to salvage your already discredited argument.

He was rather responding to a charge you levelled that he and all atheists need your religion in order to know how to live their life and be better people.

Frankly judging by your nasty dismissive comments on his charity work, which he does freely without any guilt trip from a religion, I think Sonic2k is already a better person than you so perhaps instead of focusing on others you should be focusing on bringing your own life up to the standard of a godless heath such as Sonic2k.

As someone cleverer than me once said "The biggest problem with Christianity is that it produces an awful lot of a Christians"

Just wow. You think he's a 'better person than me' even though you don't know me from Adam, you imply that Christians only do good works as a 'result of guilt-tripping' (even though I even brought this up, and explained it's not like that at all)...and that I should 'focus on bringing my life up to his standard'?

If you read my post carefully, instead of jumping on it, I said that his works are 'great', and I'm glad he does them. I never said he was bragging, I just asked why he brought up the topic at all (again explaining how he was positioning it in opposition to big bad religion).

Your hate is showing here.

Dades · 03-12-2011 09:53PM

Newsite wrote: »

Billions die of starvation - greedy First World? Greedy African dictators who 'do what they feel like'. I'm pretty sure Pol Pot did what he saw fit. I'm pretty sure Hitler did what he saw fit, coming up with his own morality to boot. Stalin, Mugabe...all doing what what they saw fit, according to their own human standard. Not God's standard which stands in complete opposition to what they stand for, 'doing what they see fit'.

It's a shame that God wouldn't see fit to make it rain in East Africa every now and again. Blame all the humans you like, you can't grow food in dust.

Atheism causes creationism

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