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Noonan buckles under bookie pressure.

  • 03-12-2011 12:39PM
    #1
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭


    Heard on the grapevine yesterday that Paddy Power have been strong arming the Department of Finance in relation to the Budget and the possibility of a rise in betting tax. We are about to get crucified next week, we will be paying an additional two per cent VAT on virtually everything, not to mention the other welfare and service cuts and tax rises, but Paddy and the lads are not willing to accept that their business should have a 2% tax on it. Apparently when approached with the tax increase, the boys spat the dummy and said they would move their jobs overseas. This show of loyalty from a company that trades on its Irishness.
    The tax used to be 10% and subsequent FF governments reduced it. First from 10% to 5%, then from 5% to 2% and then finally down to 1%. The last cut was made by Biffo, close friend and ally of Paddy Power supremo Paddy Kennedy and then Chairman and current board member Fintan Drury. Brian Lenihan announced in 2009 that he was going to re – raise the tax, before mysteriously changing his mind and bringing it back down in the subsequent finance bill. It may have helped that Paddy Power employed the then Ministers cousin as their tax advisor through PWC.
    Fine they are an Irish company and yes they support jobs here, but this is where lobbying crosses the line into something unacceptable. The bookies pay no vat, its internet bets are tax exempt, same with the phone betting. What other industry gets this treatment? Claiming that they cannot afford a 1% tax on an already stupidly low base is nuts. For a company that is always offering money back bets, maybe they could offer a bit back to the rest of us, cos next Monday isn’t gonna be pleasant for the rest of us. We voted FF out to stop this bs, Noonan would want to show some balls.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Guill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,332 ✭✭✭Guill


    We'd be paying a betting tax.


  • #3
    c_man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    Apparently when approached with the tax increase, the boys spat the dummy and said they would move their jobs overseas.

    They would. There's no question of that at all, it's a valid point.


  • #4
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Dumpthedummy wrote: »
    ...its internet bets are tax exempt, same with the phone betting. What other industry gets this treatment?
    Is this part of their business not based in the Isle of Man? How are the Irish government supposed to treat them?


  • #5
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Betting volume will decline dramatically, except for the "recycling the dole money" betting shop punters.


  • #6
    ThinkAboutIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭ThinkAboutIt


    Why try and cripple one of the areas in the economy that is doing well?
    Might as well be arguing to raise our corporation tax.


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  • #7
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Is this part of their business not based in the Isle of Man? How are the Irish government supposed to treat them?

    With contempt, which isn't taxable (at the moment:eek:).


  • #8
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    All the Government have to do is make them liable for VAT and it then dosen't matter where in the world they operate,they would pay the fair share of tax in Ireland !


  • #9
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    We're already paying a betting tax, at 1% and these guys are spitting the dummy because there is a suggestion that it should go to 2%, hardly crippling since we are all about to face a 23% VAT rate.


  • #10
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    I be happy to be crippled with a 2% tax rate,all I suggest is that they pay a fair share, lets face it the rest of us will soon have to pay 23% VAT.


  • #11
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    doubling the betting tax would have little effect on Paddy Power, currently worth €2 billion on the stock market.


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  • #12
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,787 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Have look at what these guys are paying themselves.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/kfojcwkfauau/rss2/


  • #13
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    So paying your fair share shouldn't impact their standard of living too much, of course they will also have to suffer the loss of €10 off the Children's allowance along with the rest of us !


  • #14
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    When these guys spit the dummy it seems to work for them. You could understand their ability to influence the FF Government, since their Chairman Fintan Drury was best mates with the Taoiseach Brian Cowan, but we now have a change of government and they can still get their way ! Maybe an Oireachtas commitee is needed ?


  • #15
    cloneslad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭cloneslad


    When the betting tax dropped below 23%, the bookies all decided to take the hit and give the customers their bets on a tax free basis, however, the bookie still pays the going rate of tax, per bet you place.

    The tax currently stands at 1%, so for every €10 you are betting, the bookmakers are paying 10cent. They also have to pay further tax on their earnings, their staff pay tax, they pay to lease their buildings, they pay various companies to check, update, repair their software and hardware etc etc, all of this is helping to create further jobs.

    It's not like they aren't paying anything at all.


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hi Paddy

    *waves


  • #17
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    I predicted that the strong arm tactics of Paddy Power and other bookies would result in Minister for Finance Noonan bowing to pressure by cancelling a proposed increase in betting tax from 1% to 2%. This against a background of the higher rate of vat going from 21 to 23%. Well I was right! Today’s Sunday Business Post (Page 3 “Extension to betting tax aims to raise €14 million) has a puff story about the Government aiming to raise an additional €14 million from betting tax – next year. They have bottled out and will leave the current rate of 1% stand in next week’s budget. What a bunch of wimps. The previous Fianna Fail/Coalition Government enacted the legislation to raise the betting tax from 1% to 2% in 2010 and it only needed a Ministerial Order to make it so. Could it have anything to do with the fact that Paddy Power is due to move head office into the constituency of Alan Shatter, or am I too cynical altogether.


  • #18
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Isn't the argument that a tax increase on the bookies will just lead to people going offshore and betting online?

    So we'd lose jobs in Ireland?

    No?


  • #19
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    **** Paddy Power, one of the greatest unreported addictions in this county is gambling and i know quiet a lot of people who's life's it has ruined.
    It sickens me the way the media always hype up the bookie moreso paddy power.
    On a good note i took them for a good few euro last week on a bet that was a loser but they payed out behind the counter.


  • #20
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    Why not just put extra tax on the lotto? There are plenty of morons who bet on that!


  • #21
    mackg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    Noonan buckles under bookie pressure.

    What were the odds?


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  • #22
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Dumpthedummy wrote: »
    I predicted that the strong arm tactics of Paddy Power and other bookies would result in Minister for Finance Noonan bowing to pressure by cancelling a proposed increase in betting tax from 1% to 2%. This against a background of the higher rate of vat going from 21 to 23%. Well I was right! Today’s Sunday Business Post (Page 3 “Extension to betting tax aims to raise €14 million) has a puff story about the Government aiming to raise an additional €14 million from betting tax – next year. They have bottled out and will leave the current rate of 1% stand in next week’s budget. What a bunch of wimps. The previous Fianna Fail/Coalition Government enacted the legislation to raise the betting tax from 1% to 2% in 2010 and it only needed a Ministerial Order to make it so. Could it have anything to do with the fact that Paddy Power is due to move head office into the constituency of Alan Shatter, or am I too cynical altogether.
    Seriously? Are you Ivan fucking Yates or something?


  • #23
    Degag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,158 ✭✭✭✭Degag


    bleg wrote: »
    Why not just put extra tax on the lotto? There are plenty of morons who bet on that!
    It's a bit rich calling people who do the lotto twice weekly morons.


  • #24
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    The amount of hardship bookies cause to people, tax on them should be increased to 10-20% and if they dont like it, tough cookie.


  • #25
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    The amount of hardship bookies cause to people, tax on them should be increased to 10-20% and if they dont like it, tough cookie.
    Actually you will find the bookies are not reponsible in any way, it is the people that gamble problems that are the issue. While people like to think of anybody that supplies a product that people get additcted to as pushers the reality is the person with the addiction is the issue.

    Addictions where there is no actually bodily dependence are something I find difficult to say are addictions and are more a mental health issue IMHO.


  • #26
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    The amount of hardship bookies cause to people, tax on them should be increased to 10-20% and if they dont like it, tough cookie.

    Yep, because increasing taxation will cause people with addictions to stop gambling...


  • #27
    C-Shore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭C-Shore


    bleg wrote: »
    Why not just put extra tax on the lotto? There are plenty of morons who bet on that!

    Do you mean on the cost of the ticket or the gains made by the lottery?

    Because I thought the gains come back into the government anyway? Or if you mean to raise tax on a ticket, that would be just the same as raising the base price of the ticket itself..


  • #28
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Wasn't the argument that no country in the world has been able to tax online gambling properly without all countries doing it at the same time?
    The US banned it and look at all the money that goes through the Bahamas as a result.

    If you increase the tax here then the foreign companies that don't employ one person on this island will profit without any taxes going to the Irish government.

    ...and just for clarity on my own betting habit, I have a PP account but use it for season bets on the F1 season and a few bets on Grand National day.
    I usually make money on F1 because I know the sport well and everyone bets on the Grand National so I've not what you could call a "problem"...

    Those with problems need help just like alcoholics and drug addicts.


  • #29
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    JONJO THE MISER wrote: »
    **** Paddy Power, one of the greatest unreported addictions in this county is gambling and i know quiet a lot of people who's life's it has ruined.
    It sickens me the way the media always hype up the bookie moreso paddy power.
    On a good note i took them for a good few euro last week on a bet that was a loser but they payed out behind the counter.
    Has gambling ruined these peoples lives or have these people ruined their own lives by gambling????


  • #30
    Dumpthedummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Dumpthedummy


    Good piece in this morning’s times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1205/1224308583205.html. UK getting tough on executive pay, Nick Clegg giving out about the unjustifiable salaries of fat cat CEO’s in the private sector, “we now need to get tough on irresponsible behaviour of top remuneration of executives in the private sector”. Back to our friends in Paddy Power on this one. Paddy Kennedy and his fellow board members at Paddy Power paid themselves €6.82 million in remuneration, up by nearly 10% on what they received in 2009. Everyone else was getting their pay cut in this economy, but it seems the old adage is right, you never see a poor bookie. Come on now Paddy Power directors, let’s see you donate some of your “Remuneration” to worthy causes to show you live in the real world. At the very least, stop bullying the Government on the issue of the betting tax.
    It’s not too late for the Government to increase the betting levy from 1% to 2%.Even at that higher level, it is less in tax than is paid on children’s shoes and essential medicines.


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  • #31
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,810 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Dumpthedummy wrote: »
    It’s not too late for the Government to increase the betting levy from 1% to 2%.Even at that higher level, it is less in tax than is paid on children’s shoes and essential medicines.

    So which foreign bookie do you work for then?


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