Arguments against the Afterlife

The Quadratic Equation · 01-12-2011 07:16PM

Penn wrote: »

So this all started because the snake (which God created) tempted Eve (who God created) into taking an apple from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (which God created) which Adam (who God created) ate.

God's not very good at this.

It was a devine test, but lets blame God, not the freewill choice of Satan, Adam and Eve, and round in circles you go.

01-12-2011 07:16PM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Yes, lets blame God, not the freewill choice, and round in circles you go.

God was supposed to have created everything in the first place and knew how the creations would turn out, so yes, blame god

Sonics2k · 01-12-2011 07:46PM

bluewolf wrote: »

God was supposed to have created everything in the first place and knew how the creations would turn out, so yes, blame god

Indeed, when it's bad, blame free will. When it's good, thank God. :rolleyes:

The Quadratic Equation · 01-12-2011 08:01PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Indeed, when it's bad, blame free will. When it's good, thank God. :rolleyes:

Yes thank God if they made a good choice with their free will.

swampgas · 01-12-2011 08:02PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

[ ... ]
They won't be people anymore - will they. They'll be creatures of some sort. And creatures who only have the hallmarks of sin in themselves (where sin is every kind of uglieness you can imagine)

The kindness they were once capable of they won't be there any longer (for that is a part of the image of God in which they were made - which has been removed by God's absence from them). So to the ability to relate, to love, to enjoy, to laugh, to create, to...

They will be vile creatures. Not something which would cause empathy to arise in anyone. Not even you - if you could see them now.

[ ... ]

And if they're not people any longer? But vile creatures?

A "vile creature" is still a sentient being, an animal if you will. I suspect that my empathy stretches a little further than yours - I can imagine wanting to kill a vile creature, but I would not want to torment one. That would be cruel and vindictive.

Personally I find it repulsive that you can happily condone the eternal torture of any creature, no matter how "vile".

The Quadratic Equation · 01-12-2011 08:05PM

bluewolf wrote: »

God was supposed to have created everything in the first place and knew how the creations would turn out, so yes, blame god

God loves, and therefore wills, the creation of extra-Divine beings with their own freedom of will. He also knows how it will all turn out.

In the meantime, thanks to the nature of man and his free will actions, you will never have heaven on earth here. Nothing of this world is permanent, all is temporary here. This life is a very short test for the next life which is eternal. You can choose the eternal light or the eternal dark. Those too prideful to accept God, will choose the eternal darkness, convinced by their own intellect that's all there is. They will obtain what they sought. All while the man that never heard of God, but lived a moral life, and loved his neighbour as himself, will by the grace of God, achieve eternal life. What a truly Divine test it is.

Sonics2k · 01-12-2011 08:18PM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

God loves and therefore wills the creation of extra-Divine beings with their own freedom of will. He also knows how it will all turn out.

If God loves, why did he make us full of sin?

The Quadratic Equation · 01-12-2011 08:33PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

If God loves, why did he make us full of sin?

That knowlege was aquired by man himself, when he decided to obey Satan instead of God and took from the tree of knowlege of Good and Evil. Innocence gone, and paradise lost.

01-12-2011 08:39PM

you people make absolutely no sense whatsoever

swampgas · 01-12-2011 08:45PM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

God loves, and therefore wills, the creation of extra-Divine beings with their own freedom of will. He also knows how it will all turn out. In the meantime, thanks to the nature of man and his free will actions, you will never have heaven on earth here. Nothing of this world is permanent, all is temporary here. This life is a very short test for the next life which is eternal. You can choose the eternal light or the eternal dark. Those too prideful to accept God, will choose the eternal darkness, convinced by their own intellect that's all there is. They will obtain what they sought. All while the man that never heard of God, but lived a moral life, and loved his neighbour as himself, will by the grace of God, achieve eternal life. What a truly Devine test it is.

Well, if God gave me my intellect, he can't complain if my use of it has made me an atheist. Or sorry, I forgot - this is the same tyrant that likes to punish children for the sins of the parents - he can be as capricious as he bloody well likes, apparently.

Anyhow, seeing as God doesn't exist, Heaven doesn't exist, and Hell doesn't exist, I really don't have to worry too much about all that "Even if God knows you'll end up in hell he gave you free will so he loves you really, even though he knows you'll be in agony forever it's not his fault" rubbish.

PS: the word is "divine", not "devine".

irishh_bob · 01-12-2011 09:22PM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

God loves, and therefore wills, the creation of extra-Divine beings with their own freedom of will. He also knows how it will all turn out. In the meantime, thanks to the nature of man and his free will actions, you will never have heaven on earth here. Nothing of this world is permanent, all is temporary here. This life is a very short test for the next life which is eternal. You can choose the eternal light or the eternal dark. Those too prideful to accept God, will choose the eternal darkness, convinced by their own intellect that's all there is. They will obtain what they sought. All while the man that never heard of God, but lived a moral life, and loved his neighbour as himself, will by the grace of God, achieve eternal life. What a truly Devine test it is.

have you any idea how smug ( and sure of yourself - arrogant ) you sound ?

The Quadratic Equation · 01-12-2011 10:24PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

have you any idea how smug ( and sure of yourself - arrogant ) you sound ?

Sorry if I do, that's not my intention, but I can't help it. Despite all lifes troubles, I'm so happy, and it's great . . . .:o and I wish it for you someday as well. Peace.

ironingbored · 01-12-2011 10:28PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Ultimately, I've no problem with folk choosing to be without God (a.k.a. Hell).

Why is the "choice" between eternal prostration before the celestial dictator or eternal torture.

What's wrong with a planet to ourselves? Those who are good chaps but don't like the idea of eternal serfdom?

antiskeptic · 01-12-2011 10:31PM

Dades wrote: »

So atheists and agnostics can go to heaven?

Those are very imprecise terms but yes, I could see how someone who might label themselves so could find themselves in heaven.

You see this is just theology-talk. Sin, the Fall, holiness, bosoms... Your notion that suffering is relative is cold comfort to those who live in the then-and-now, and not in some mythical covenant that makes them mere pawns in an age old game.

Pawns have no control over their destination. People do. Bad analogy.

I'm supposing that we frown on the chopping off of hands for stealing, and yet you try to justify the turning of our world from a paradise to a dangerous and chaotic place where the only justice is flawed human justice because a man ...

..disobeyed God. God promised. God delivered. I don't see the problem

Simple question: do you not think God overacted somewhat? If even one child had to die in the dirt through malnutrition would this not be unfair for what someone supposedly did in the Garden of Eden? Never mind all the children that have died in the dirt since they walked out of the garden...

Man disobeying God strikes me as a catastrophic thing. The setting off of cataclysmic reaction wouldn't strike me as surprising. Or overreaction.

How impactful is sin? I suppose the only way to know is to see God's reaction to it. There is no external measure to assess his reaction against afterall.

Sonics2k · 01-12-2011 11:50PM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

It was a devine test, but lets blame God, not the freewill choice of Satan, Adam and Eve, and round in circles you go.

What was the point of the test if he knew the outcome beforehand?

It's like me putting my hand in a fire on purpose, I know it's going to hurt and burn me, but I'll "test" it anyway.

The Quadratic Equation · 02-12-2011 12:16AM

Sonics2k wrote: »

What was the point of the test if he knew the outcome beforehand?

It's like me putting my hand in a fire on purpose, I know it's going to hurt and burn me, but I'll "test" it anyway.

The test is for US not for God.
How do you know the outcome, why do you think the outcome is over ? Eternity is a long time. As I already replied to this, God loves, and therefore wills, the creation of extra-Divine beings with their own freedom of will. He also knows how it will all turn out.

Dades · 02-12-2011 12:21AM

If someone wrote a Hollywood script of that story it would be binned for being so completely full of plot holes and lacking a likeable protagonist.

And here we are in the 21st century talking with people who think it's real.

robindch · 02-12-2011 12:54AM

Dades wrote: »

here we are in the 21st century talking with people who think it's real.

I'd love to zap forward 500 years and see if people there would believe me when I tell them that people here really did believe this stuff.

Actually, didn't ST-TNG use that idea in a few drive-by's?

The Quadratic Equation · 02-12-2011 12:55AM

Dades wrote: »

If someone wrote a Hollywood script of that story it would be binned for being so completely full of plot holes and lacking a likeable protagonist.

And here we are in the 21st century talking with people who think it's real.

So whats the odds of the microscopic big bang leading to the creation of earth the appearence, life, loves and hopes of human beings ?

antiskeptic · 02-12-2011 01:11AM

swampgas wrote: »

A "vile creature" is still a sentient being, an animal if you will.

Animals don't sin. Creature.

I suspect that my empathy stretches a little further than yours - I can imagine wanting to kill a vile creature, but I would not want to torment one. That would be cruel and vindictive.

Nothing more will be happening than that the creature resides in truth. In the truth about itself as vile. The creature has created it's own surrounding. It's bed to lie in.

Personally I find it repulsive that you can happily condone the eternal torture of any creature, no matter how "vile".

You would deny someone the consequence of their choice. That's sentimentality - not empathy.

fisgon · 02-12-2011 01:13AM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Indeed, why bother finding out what Christians actually believe when you can pretend what they believe.
Much more comfy.

The problem for you is that Christians don't just believe one thing about the afterlife.

The catholics have made up one version of it, the presbyterians another version, Baptists another, the Mormons have a very detailed idea about how they will spend the afterlife with their families, thus their obssession with geneology, the Calvinists believe in predestination, other Christians believe you can change your destiny, and so on. As a Christian you can believe anything you want about the afterlife, you have a whole buffet of choices to select.

The reason why there are so many options, of course, is because they come down to one bunch of people inventing one version of events, another inventing a different version, and so on. These stories of afterlives are simply stories we tell ourselves to try and defeat the fear of death.

sephir0th · 02-12-2011 01:31AM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So whats the odds of the microscopic big bang leading to the creation of earth the appearence, life, loves and hopes of human beings ?

We don't know - but we don't need to fill the gap with nonsensical fairytale stories.

BTW - The Adam and Eve fairytale is in conflict with evolution - not the Big Bang theory.

The Quadratic Equation · 02-12-2011 01:39AM

sephir0th wrote: »

BTW - The Adam and Eve fairytale is in conflict with evolution

How so ? Like many Scientific Christians I endorse the big bang and the theory of evolution.
Nothing in Science contradicts Christianity.

Sarky · 02-12-2011 05:05AM

Is there a reason you're not counting the geological and fossil record, which shows the development of life and Noah's flood thing were absolutely nothing like the bible's account? Or the way human bones suggest that life expectancy has never been any greater than what we currently have? Or how what we know of the creation of the universe completely contradicts how the bible says god did it?

Or did those bits slip your mind? Or are these not important because they only apply to *some* Christians?

dead one · 02-12-2011 06:11AM

kylith wrote: »

Oh, well, if they're being burned and tortured for their own good that alright then. Some merciful being, that; torturing people. Not at all like an abusive spouse smacking his wife around because of some percieved grievance, shouting "Baby, why do you make me hit you?!"

oh, well, if a spouse lightly smacks his abusive wife / son / daughter, a wife who is abusive to his children, his dignity -- his honor-- his sisters -- his mother-- his daughters-- his father --his society, then that smack, which stops abusive wife from abusing the whole society, is preferable...... In simple words,You are immune to understand what i am saying, because you live in a hollow society, a society, which prefers the right of an individual over the rights of all the individual of society --which secures right of one person to malign rights of mother --- fathers--sons--daughters of the same society --- A society which treats fathers as second class citizen --A society which grows on seeds of desires -- A society purely based on wishful thinking -- I hope, my words wouldn't create pain in your mind -- as you've brought the old topic in to discussion -- Religion is personal choice, you don't like Islam, Christianity or Judaism -- I've got no problem with it --
But don't hate your inner self,

02-12-2011 09:37AM

my inner self is not an abuser, go away

sephir0th · 02-12-2011 10:42AM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

How so ? Like many Scientific Christians I endorse the big bang and the theory of evolution.
Nothing in Science contradicts Christianity.

You believe that god poofed the first humans into existence while at the same time you believe humans evolved from primates?

swampgas · 02-12-2011 10:47AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Animals don't sin. Creature.

Nothing more will be happening than that the creature resides in truth. In the truth about itself as vile. The creature has created it's own surrounding. It's bed to lie in.

You would deny someone the consequence of their choice. That's sentimentality - not empathy.

Call me a sentimentalist then. I prefer it to your kind of empathy.

seamus · 02-12-2011 10:47AM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So whats the odds of the microscopic big bang leading to the creation of earth the appearence, life, loves and hopes of human beings ?

We don't know, but considering that all of our current evidence supports the fact that the big bang happened, that evolution occurs and that biological molecules can be spontaneously created from non-biological molecules, then it's fair to say that the odds are actually pretty good.

On the other hand, the complete absence of supporting evidence for anything postulated in the bible means that the entire thing is indistinguishable from something that somebody made up.

Of course you can claim that you support the big bang theory and evolution and square the bible against this by saying, "Well, it's all a metaphor". But isn't that just another way of saying, "Well, it's all just stuff that was made up to try and explain our origins"? So if the bible is indistinguishable from fiction, why are you so sure that it's not fiction?

The key thing here is the logical fallacy of why you consider the bible a worthy tome. If you accepted that the bible was written by men, then you accept that it is in fact all just made up, and it's at best a thesis on philosophy, deserving of a place on some dusty shelf in a university, but not exactly relevant to everyday life and the conduct of it.

On the other hand, if you feel that the bible (or any of the religious texts) is a text from God, written through men, then you must ask yourself - how do I know this? "Because the bible says so", is not an answer. I am God, because I say so. Therefore if you are being intellectually honest, you should worship me because I must be God.

The crux of all of the major religions relies on the certainty that the bible is an interpretation of the word of a creator. For some reason they all gloss over this issue at indoctrination time and the issue of "How do we know that the bible is the word of god, without referring to the bible" is never addressed. It's stated as a given that <insert religious text> is a text from God, with absolutely no supporting evidence ever presented.

If you consider that the texts were written by men, and no a deity, then you realise there is no reason to believe that anything stated in them is true. Interesting theses on philosophy and theology, sure, and they even contain some essays on civics and morality. But they're just theses at the end of the day. Not manuals.

Dades · 02-12-2011 10:51AM

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

So whats the odds of the microscopic big bang leading to the creation of earth the appearence, life, loves and hopes of human beings ?

Science doesn't do odds, but it happens to the be the theory with the most supporting evidence. Evidence which is based on things other than a mythical tale of a Supergod knocking the universe together in a week and demons and snakes and whatnot.

Arguments against the Afterlife

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