Arguments against the Afterlife

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

There is little doubt (within the context of the biblical account be reckoned truth) that physicality sits central to heaven. (NB: people won't actually go to heaven - rather the earth will be restored to the way God intended to be and he will reside amongst his people here . But for the sake of discussion we might as well keep referring to the place people go, as heaven). People will occupy what is referred to a 'glorified' bodies. Bodies that do not decay or die.

I'm not quite sure what the physical aspect of Hell will be. I imagine the occupants will have physicality but believe the suggestion that folk will physically burn forever is a metaphorical way of describing "as awful an existence as can be imagined".





Not so.

The thing which determines whether you 'go to Heaven' or whether you 'go to Hell' isn't the same thing which determines your league position in either place.

If a person is saved then that's what ensures they go to heaven. They aren't saved based on their performance. Once saved however, their performance determines their position in heaven.

If a person remains lost then that's what ensures they go to Hell. They aren't lost based on their performance since everyone sins and so lost is the default position. In Hell, their position (is speculated by me) is determined by their performance whilst living. The more sinful the person was the more misery-inducing their self-made prison will be.




You can't have one without the other. Sin without a person to bring it to life is neutred, inactive. God's wrath (or better said, his holiness) detests the personhood that sins because the evil is sourced in the very will of the person themselves. The sin is like a disease the person has been infected with but in the face of an opportunity to be rid of this ugly-inducing disease, the person prefers what the disease has to offer.




Do the above points re-orientate your understanding of my position.

1) Salvation isn't dependent on how much you sin/don't sin.

2) There is no sliding scale of salvation. You either are saved or you are lost. The repentence which brings about salvation is total. It involves total surrender.

3) Position in heaven is something only the saved can aspire to. That position is based on your response to God's promptings to walk after him.

whats your opinion on people who commit suicide , do they go to hell ?

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

whats your opinion on people who commit suicide , do they go to hell ?

I can see a case for both heaven and hell.

Let's suppose a paedophile who commits suicide to prevent himself inflicting (more) damage on children. That act, an act which constitutes a sincere, heartfelt recognition of terminal rotteness within, might well constitute a salvation event.

And let's suppose a paedophile who commits suicide as a means to escape the dark prison he's created for himself through a gradual shutting down of a knowledge of what's right .. in order that he can continue to satisfy his perverted cravings. His motivation in suicide is a final selfish act without recognition of the rotteness within. I would consider him finally lost.

Newsite

antiskeptic wrote: »

I can see a case for both heaven and hell.

Let's suppose a paedophile who commits suicide to prevent himself inflicting (more) damage on children. That act, an act which constitutes a sincere, heartfelt recognition on rotteness within might well constitute a salvation event.

And lets suppose a paedophile who commits suicide as a means to escape the dark prison he's created for himself through a gradual shutting down of a knowledge of what's right in order that he can continue to satisfy his perverted cravings. His motivation is a final selfish act. I would consider him lost.

You're saying that a salvation event could consist of God saving the man, with the outcome that he then kills himself? As opposed to turning from that sin immediately?

That his regeneration coincides with that kind of act?

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

I can see a case for both heaven and hell.

Let's suppose a paedophile who commits suicide to prevent himself inflicting (more) damage on children. That act, an act which constitutes a sincere, heartfelt recognition of terminal rotteness within, might well constitute a salvation event.

And let's suppose a paedophile who commits suicide as a means to escape the dark prison he's created for himself through a gradual shutting down of a knowledge of what's right .. in order that he can continue to satisfy his perverted cravings. His motivation in suicide is a final selfish act without recognition of the rotteness within. I would consider him finally lost.

was watching a well known irish saturday night chat show earlier this evening , thier was a segment which featured a family who,s daughter has taken her own life , she had suffered with depression for years , is she in hell ?

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

was watching a well known irish saturday night chat show earlier this evening , thier was a segment which featured a family who's daughter has taken her own life , she had suffered with depression for years , is she in hell ?

I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess. There's no firm information to go on.

It is a drumbeat of scripture that it's trouble that is used in the attempt to drive us to God - we're too rebellion loving to go to him on our own accord. That trouble can come in every form imaginable: sin, sickness, approaching death, desperation, bereavement, job loss, stress, depression, marriage breakup, addiction, hopelessness, a sense of meaningless - in all likelyhood it would take a combination of some of these.

But we can resist being brought to our knees before God. Right up to the bitter end.

And so it could be that salvation was found for this girl in this act. Or it could be that suicide was a way of escaping the pressure that would bring her to her knees before God. A final rebellious act saying "I wll not bow"

There's no way to know.

Sonics2k

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess. There's no firm information to go on.

It is a drumbeat of scripture that it's trouble that is used in the attempt to drive us to God - we're too rebellion loving to go to him on our own accord. That trouble can come in every form imaginable: sin, sickness, approaching death, desperation, bereavement, job loss, stress, depression, marriage breakup, addiction, hopelessness, a sense of meaningless - in all likelyhood it would take a combination of some of these.

But we can resist being brought to our knees before God. Right up to the bitter end.

And so it could be that salvation was found for this girl in this act. Or it could be that suicide was a way of escaping the pressure that would bring her to her knees before God. A final rebellious act saying "I wll not bow"

There's no way to know.

Suicide is a sin, so yes they'd go to hell.

Also, you saying that a pedophile could find salvation because he commits suicide, to prevent himself from raping children is the most sickening thing I've read in a long time.

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess. There's no firm information to go on.

It is a drumbeat of scripture that it's trouble that is used in the attempt to drive us to God - we're too rebellion loving to go to him on our own accord. That trouble can come in every form imaginable: sin, sickness, approaching death, desperation, bereavement, job loss, stress, depression, marriage breakup, addiction, hopelessness, a sense of meaningless - in all likelyhood it would take a combination of some of these.

But we can resist being brought to our knees before God. Right up to the bitter end.

And so it could be that salvation was found for this girl in this act. Or it could be that suicide was a way of escaping the pressure that would bring her to her knees before God. A final rebellious act saying "I wll not bow"

There's no way to know.

ah now your hesitating a bit now , you were pretty definitive earlier on what guarentees a permanent date with hells grim tyrant

antiskeptic

Newsite wrote: »

You're saying that a salvation event could consist of God saving the man, with the outcome that he then kills himself? As opposed to turning from that sin immediately?

I was supposing the act itself to function as the admission required of every man in order that God save him (I would see the salvation-event as being distilled down to a recognition and admission by man regarding his sinfulness)

But I could see where someone saved could end up killing themselves too. Just because God saves doesn't mean life becomes a bed of roses (as you know. Or that our paedophiles cravings would stop.

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

ah now your hesitating a bit now , you were pretty definitive earlier on what guarentees a permanent date with hells grim tyrant

True. If you are lost you go to Hell. If you are found you won't. I've also being definitive on what I think would constitute a suicide leading to salvation and one that wouldn't.

I can't comment on a case where you give no detail. "Depression" is as insufficient a detailing as is "Paedophile"

antiskeptic

Sonics2k wrote: »

Suicide is a sin, so yes they'd go to hell.

If sin is sure to lead you to hell then everyone would be in hell. No?

Also, you saying that a pedophile could find salvation because he commits suicide, to prevent himself from raping children is the most sickening thing I've read in a long time.

How many pints did you have tonight? Just exploring the possibilities.

Newsite

antiskeptic wrote: »

I was supposing the act itself to function as the admission required of every man in order that God save him (I would see the salvation-event as being distilled down to a recognition and admission by man regarding his sinfulness)

Not sure if I'm picking you up right here, but you seem to be saying that the act is required of the man in order that God save him?!!

antiskeptic wrote: »

But I could see where someone saved could end up killing themselves too. Just because God saves doesn't mean life becomes a bed of roses (as you know. Or that our paedophiles cravings would stop.

It is never a bed of roses, that's a given alright. But being saved is a regeneration, a changed heart, a change of mind, the same person with a different heart, a changed mind. Looking to spiritual things in making decisions and carrying himself, strengthened, guided and kept by the Holy Spirit. Freeing the man from being bound by his lusts. That doesn't mean his desires disappear, whatever they might be in whatever case. But to suggest that the man might be lead further into the dark is to doubt God's grace, or at least to take a fairly dismal view of what ultimately happens after the man is bestowed with it.

Sonics2k

antiskeptic wrote: »

If sin is sure to lead you to hell then everyone would be in hell. No?

Well I'm fairly sure that's the whole point of Sin's now isn't it!

antiskeptic wrote: »

How many pints did you have tonight? Just exploring the possibilities.

I'm quite sober. I see a post where someone tries to justify a way for a pedophile to go to heaven and I'm sickened.

antiskeptic

Sonics2k wrote: »

Well I'm fairly sure that's the whole point of Sin's now isn't it!

Yet sinners will be in heaven too. Your theological understanding appears ..incomplete.

I'm quite sober. I see a post where someone tries to justify a way for a pedophile to go to heaven and I'm sickened.

I'm not justifying it. I'm suggesting that all sinners can avail of God's way of salvation. You, me and the paedophile.

Sonics2k

antiskeptic wrote: »

Yet sinners will be in heaven too. Your theological understanding appears ..incomplete.

How does this make sense? Why would a sinner get into a Heaven, a place made for those who've lived a life without sin?

This makes no sense at all

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm not justifying it. I'm suggesting that all sinners can avail of God's way of salvation. You, me and the paedophile.

Some things are beyond redemption. Paedophillia is one of them.

From this point on, I refuse to acknowledge anything else you say unless you have a long hard think about what you've just said, and how disgusting it is.

I sincerely doubt if any other Religious poster will agree with you.

antiskeptic

Newsite wrote: »

Not sure if I'm picking you up right here, but you seem to be saying that the act is required of the man in order that God save him?!!

What is required is a heart response. Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. Or hangs itself in a noose.

It is never a bed of roses, that's a given alright. But being saved is a regeneration, a changed heart, a change of mind, the same person with a different heart, a changed mind.

Yes. But regeneration follows salvation (albeit instantaneously) And if the point of salvation occurs at the point of a heart response - which occurs at the point of jumping off a bridge then I can't see how the person would have much earthly time to experience regenerated life.

Looking to spiritual things in making decisions and carrying himself, strengthened, guided and kept by the Holy Spirit. Freeing the man from being bound by his lusts. That doesn't mean his desires disappear, whatever they might be in whatever case. But to suggest that the man might be lead further into the dark is to doubt God's grace, or at least to take a fairly dismal view of what ultimately happens after the man is bestowed with it.

I'm not saying he would be led. But he might well travel there himself - not walking in the spirit so as to avoid fulfilling the deeds of the flesh. Getting drunk on wine which leads to debauchery - instead of being filled with the Spirit.

It's not so much dismal view as a path Paul seems bent on exhorting us not to take. Which means it a path it's possible to take.

antiskeptic

Sonics2k wrote: »

How does this make sense? Why would a sinner get into a Heaven, a place made for those who've lived a life without sin?

This makes no sense at all

The only person whose lived a life without sin is Jesus. You were saying..

Some things are beyond redemption. Paedophillia is one of them.

God doesn't share your view.

From this point on, I refuse to acknowledge anything else you say unless you have a long hard think about what you've just said, and how disgusting it is.

Done. Of same mind.

I sincerely doubt if any other Religious poster will agree with you.

Newsite. You still on line?

irishh_bob

Sonics2k wrote: »

Suicide is a sin, so yes they'd go to hell.

Also, you saying that a pedophile could find salvation because he commits suicide, to prevent himself from raping children is the most sickening thing I've read in a long time.

so the daughter of that american family which featured on the brendan o connor show , shes in hell ?

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

True. If you are lost you go to Hell. If you are found you won't. I've also being definitive on what I think would constitute a suicide leading to salvation and one that wouldn't.

I can't comment on a case where you give no detail. "Depression" is as insufficient a detailing as is "Paedophile"

im only reporting what i heard during the interview , regular girl was suffering from depression and committed suicide

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

im only reporting what i heard during the interview , regular girl was suffering from depression and committed suicide

Regular girls don't commit suicide. Something quite irregular was going on in her life.

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

Regular girls don't commit suicide. Something quite irregular was going on in her life.

regular insofar as she wasnt a famous musician , actress etc , not famous

i dont know if something irregular ( bar depression ) was going on in her life , it wasnt mentioned , does it matter ?

coffee_cake

antiskeptic wrote: »

Regular girls don't commit suicide. Something quite irregular was going on in her life.

right, depression

antiskeptic

bluewolf wrote: »

right, depression

You don't seem to be following the thread. We know that. But that's all we know.

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

You don't seem to be following the thread. We know that. But that's all we know.

we dont need to know anymore , the principal question remains , is someone like this girl in hell having committed suicide ?

sonic clearly believes so , do you ?

Sonics2k

irishh_bob wrote: »

we dont need to know anymore , the principal question remains , is someone like this girl in hell having committed suicide ?

sonic clearly believes so , do you ?

According to their own religion, Suicide is a major sin, it's their final act, and so they'd go to Hell.

Pretty obvious stuff by their own book and rules.

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

we dont need to know anymore

I'm afraid we do.

To the outward world, our two paedophiles would appear depressed yet their motivation for killing themselves is markedly different. Wouldn't you agree?

irishh_bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm afraid we do.

To the outward world, our two paedophiles would appear depressed yet their motivation for killing themselves is markedly different. Wouldn't you agree?

i never mentioned paedophiles once , i was focusing on a single incident involving a young lady who took her own life , you have conclued that this lady is now in hell , thats all i wanted to know

antiskeptic

irishh_bob wrote: »

..you have conclued that this lady is now in hell , thats all i wanted to know

The absence of a quote where I've said or implied that ~ is noted.

aidan24326

antiskeptic wrote: »

Yet sinners will be in heaven too. Your theological understanding appears ..incomplete.

Theology is not even a valid academic sugject, since it's based on a false premise. So any 'knowledge' of theology is merely to fill one's head with rubbish. With that in mind, I'd prefer my knowledge of theology to be incomplete, since it doesn't offer anything other than nonsense.

antiskeptic

aidan24326 wrote: »

Theology is not even a valid academic sugject, since it's based on a false premise.

Tell that to Trinity College Dublin's theology dept. Circulate your missive to the other Uni's whilst your at it.

So any 'knowledge' of theology is merely to fill one's head with rubbish. With that in mind, I'd prefer my knowledge of theology to be incomplete, since it doesn't offer anything other than nonsense.

The addition of the words "..nah nah na na nah" would make your point complete.

coffee_cake

antiskeptic wrote: »

You don't seem to be following the thread. We know that. But that's all we know.

That's all we need to know. I'm not talking about someone appearing down for a few days, I'm talking about genuinely suffering from depression. And if we don't know that she was, let's assume she was for the point of the question.