Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Pedestrians in the cycle lane

245

Comments

  • #52
    carthoris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭carthoris


    Rwood wrote: »
    I agree totally that there are some real dopes in this country. I mean who would think that cyclists should obey the rules of the road.
    Red light means stop and wait for green.
    Pedestrians always have the right of way
    Cycling on the footpath is illegal
    Why should motorists obey the rules of the road if cyclists don't and then you want to know why you get knocked down. Wake up pay attention and don't wear headphones while in control of a vehicle.
    Again I agree "there are some real dopes in Country"

    And there was me thinking there wasn't going to be a 'Friday' thread ...


  • #53
    enas
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭enas


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    We just need to get more people cycling - we have done it before - in the 1980s there was significant growth in cycling in Ireland with zero investment by the state.

    That's exactly the kind of things I'm very interested in. Do you have any more information on that?
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Again you appear to have missed the point. The cycle facilities that we are currently being offered are part and parcel of the car-centred approach. Unless you successfully replace the car-centred approach with something else first, the institutional tendency will be to use roadside cycle-facilities as a means of pursuing car promotion.

    Hmm. I'm a bit puzzled. I think we actually fully agree here. Must be an issue with my wording. The part in bold in exactly what I propose we should campaign for. It's very hard indeed. But, as it extends well beyond the interest of cyclists, it might not be impossible to join forces with a large number of people from different backgrounds? Do you have any information on campaigning actions in this direction?

    Anyway, I think I'll stop the discussion here, as it's moving away from the initial topic, or maybe we could open a new thread.


  • #54
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Rwood wrote: »
    I agree totally that there are some real dopes in this country. I mean who would think that cyclists should obey the rules of the road.
    Red light means stop and wait for green.
    Pedestrians always have the right of way
    Cycling on the footpath is illegal
    Why should motorists obey the rules of the road if cyclists don't and then you want to know why you get knocked down. Wake up pay attention and don't wear headphones while in control of a vehicle.
    Again I agree "there are some real dopes in Country"

    I concur. When the sun goes over the yardarm, it's time to crack open the meths.


  • #55
    rp
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭rp


    enas wrote: »
    Unless you successfully replace the car-centred approach with something else first
    ... It's very hard indeed
    Probably not that hard - what's the current countdown until peak oil? Four years? We'll have all the dedicated cycle lanes we could ever need after that (maybe sooner, if the country's economic muscle doesn't improve)


  • #56
    check_six
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭check_six


    Rwood wrote: »
    I agree totally that there are some real dopes in this country. I mean who would think that cyclists should obey the rules of the road.
    Red light means stop and wait for green.
    Pedestrians always have the right of way
    Cycling on the footpath is illegal
    Why should motorists obey the rules of the road if cyclists don't and then you want to know why you get knocked down. Wake up pay attention and don't wear headphones while in control of a vehicle.
    Again I agree "there are some real dopes in Country"


    I would like to begin my furious rebuttal by saying that...

    Waitaminute, I've just noticed what big sharp teeth you have, hard to spot them at first under that thar bridge!


  • #57
    deandean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,236 ✭✭✭deandean


    I cycle on cycle lanes around Dublin quite a lot. I find you gotta gotta have a bell on your handlebars - the ching-ching type that everyone reckognises. I use it quite a lot. Only once did I get thick with a guy who was so <whatever>.


  • #58
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    I'd have thought that one reason campaigners in this country don't ask for "the good stuff" is that they have good reason to feel little confidence that they'll get it. The reactions galwaycyclist is getting from councillors and engineers are typical. In the past I made submissions to Fingal council about proposed cycle "facilities", making detailed points, raising specific problems with the plans and with existing similar infrastructure, and citing the national cycling policy framework. The response was, to put it politely, dismissive. They don't address specific criticisms, don't answer specific questions, and the reply boils down to: we stick to best practice; we also define best practice; we've built this sort of thing before and we thought it was great so we obviously know what we're doing; shut up.

    In those circumstances the safest option seems to be to beg the people who've made such a mess of it so far just to stop: don't ask them for the good stuff because they'll simply f--- that up, too, and then insist we use it. I admire anyone who has the patience to stick at campaigning and opt for any approach other than trying to ignore the councils as much as they ignore cyclists.


  • #59
    Korvanica
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Korvanica


    Clipped some chick myself this morning on the way to work...

    Set of steps with a cycle ramp beside them, there's 3 sets of these steps in succession with about 30 Meters between them.

    Im coming down them no bother, everyone who sees me coming down uses the steps or waits at the bottom of the ramp allowing its intended users to go first.

    This chick looked up and definitely saw me, as i was just entering the ramp, and proceeds to walk up the middle of it with her head down. I shout, she doesn't move, so i have to try get around her, not enough room so I clip her elbow fairly hard ( i was moving with a bit of pace), didn't spill or anything but nearly did..

    Yea I know it was the wrong thing to do.. but whatever, she saw me and refused to move...


  • #60
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    There is of course John Forester and his acolytes in the US but to my knowledge no formal groupings over here have taken the kind of extreme positions those guys have.
    I did think of him when I thought of someone who opposed all facilities.


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    As said already, the Dutch intervened at a point where they still had rates of cycling about an order of magnitude higher than what we have (70s).

    173444.jpg
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74241698&postcount=75

    Judging by the Manchester number there, the cycling rates in the Netherlands were higher than the UK before the intense construction of facilities. Then again, maybe Manchester had low rates, even for the UK.

    Good point about the short green time for pedestrians. It's one of the most offensive practices in public life here, and an odd case, in the city centres, of clear prejudice against a majority, rather than a minority.

    What news of the Grand Canal route? I have some hope for that being something approximating to good practice and something that can be pointed to in future. I'm also prepared to be disappointed.


  • #62
    Muckie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭Muckie


    Jesus lads, this thread has got legs!

    Heres the picture of where my "incident with my new female friend"

    DSC02055.jpg

    If any of you know it. Its opposite The Square in Tallaght.

    My new female friend loomed large infront of me, scared the crap, and i

    i didn't react quick enough, ah well live and learn(maybe attach a

    cattle prod) for future cycling adventures!


  • #63
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,160 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Korvanica wrote: »
    Clipped some chick myself this morning on the way to work...

    Set of steps with a cycle ramp beside them, there's 3 sets of these steps in succession with about 30 Meters between them.

    Im coming down them no bother, everyone who sees me coming down uses the steps or waits at the bottom of the ramp allowing its intended users to go first.

    This chick looked up and definitely saw me, as i was just entering the ramp, and proceeds to walk up the middle of it with her head down. I shout, she doesn't move, so i have to try get around her, not enough room so I clip her elbow fairly hard ( i was moving with a bit of pace), didn't spill or anything but nearly did..

    Yea I know it was the wrong thing to do.. but whatever, she saw me and refused to move...

    These aren't the ramps in UCD are they? because if they are I have some bad news...


  • #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,720 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    What news of the Grand Canal route? I have some hope for that being something approximating to good practice and something that can be pointed to in future. I'm also prepared to be disappointed.

    I noticed that they're working on a section near the Sam Beckett Bridge now (south side), they're in the process of digging it up right now.

    My own personal hope when it opens is that the present canal cycle lanes will be empty once these guys open... but I'm sure I'll still be held up behind someone an RLJ and be unable to overtake due to space for a good bit as normal.


  • #65
    Kintarō Hattori
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    Thankfully I haven't hit a ped yet but I was wondering. I'm sure statistically some of you are bound to have hit a ped, and probably in some cases while moving pretty quickly. Have you stopped to see if they were OK, did you take much abuse from them/a partner?


  • #66
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    The gates are ridiculous. The canal path used to be on my route to work. I had to go through 11 gates to get to work and 11 on the way back. If I cycled it 5 days a week that meant 110 unnecessary dismounts and remounts.
    carthoris wrote: »
    I agree - the gates are a bit excessive ...

    There's a reason that access is restricted by steel fencing parallel to the canal along the length of the paths.
    There's a reason for the security cameras along the length of the path.

    Without the gates, fencing and cameras, the relatively isolated canal paths would be a magnet for anti-social behaviour. Walkers and cyclists would find themselves sharing the paths with kids on scramblers, sulky races, canal-side drinkers (guilty, your honour) and the rest. You'd probably get drivers taking short cuts too.
    The amenity would become less attractive and less safe to use, particularly for the likes of female cyclists in the evenings.

    I suppose if the council were any good they'd organise to have the gates opened at peak times.

    On the same subject, I was walking with family along a canal towpath recently in the midlands. The path was about the width of a car, sharp drop into the water on one side, ditch on the other. We met a woman taking her dog for a walk and were forced to get into the ditch to let her past. She was driving down the towpath, hanging out the window, with the dog on the lead :pac:


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Any chance at all that the canal path might be regularly patrolled by Gardai and/or Wardens on bikes?


  • #68
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Any chance at all that the canal path might be regularly patrolled by Gardai and/or Wardens on bikes?

    :pac:


  • #69
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    petethedrummer wrote: »
    The gates are ridiculous. The canal path used to be on my route to work. I had to go through 11 gates to get to work and 11 on the way back. If I cycled it 5 days a week that meant 110 unnecessary dismounts and remounts.
    carthoris wrote: »
    I agree - the gates are a bit excessive ...

    There's a reason that access is restricted by steel fencing parallel to the canal along the length of the paths.
    There's a reason for the security cameras along the length of the path.

    Without the gates, fencing and cameras, the relatively isolated canal paths would be a magnet for anti-social behaviour. Walkers and cyclists would find themselves sharing the paths with kids on scramblers, sulky races, canal-side drinkers (guilty, your honour) and the rest. You'd probably get drivers taking short cuts too.
    The amenity would become less attractive and less safe to use, particularly for the likes of female cyclists in the evenings.

    I suppose if the council were any good they'd organise to have the gates opened at peak times.

    Do you work for SDCC, the ESB or Waterways Ireland? If not why on earth are you defending them?

    Surely the gates have made the route far less attractive and thus less safe to use?

    You don't need gates to stop cars, bollards can do that, and, as far as I could tell the last time I used it, the gates and CCTV as used now have not stopped the likes of horses on the path.


  • #70
    saa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭saa


    I shout on your right, must get a bell.
    I'm sure it was an Irish radio station where I heard if there is a cycle lane it is a legal requirement to use it, every cycle land in Tallaght in glittered with broken glass, cycled up to Lucan through jobstown once was quite tricky.

    I use all cycle lanes except one stretch where the cycle lane starts before I get near it so its all curb I would stop and go up it except its really busy with pedestrians everytime, then there is the cycle lane in the park where I get dirty looks for having to cycle on the grass because someone's toddle is just wandering about where they please on the cycle lane..

    My most hated cycle lane though, coming from donnybrook to leeson street if a bus didn't smack into you at the bend in donnybrook then you're faced with switching lanes after that white hotel, its 4 lanes of traffic I've got off and walked with the bike at the lights because I just didn't get a chance to change lanes to go straight


  • #71
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Any chance at all that the canal path might be regularly patrolled by Gardai and/or Wardens on bikes?

    That would be ideal. I'm guessing only a guard would be effective.
    monument wrote: »
    Do you work for SDCC, the ESB or Waterways Ireland? If not why on earth are you defending them?

    No connection to any of the above or any cyclist/walking/waterway organisation. I'm defending them (the gates and other security) because I believe without them, the path would become less attractive to walkers and cyclists for the reasons I outlined.
    monument wrote: »
    Surely the gates have made the route far less attractive and thus less safe to use?
    Far less attractive?
    How many minutes to you think the gates add to your journey?
    How much inconvenience is it really to navigate the gates?
    How much less attractive would it be for elderly walkers/women with prams/women cyclists in the evenings, to encounter motorcyclekids/sulkys/groups of drinkers?
    Certainly can't see how you think the gates make the route less safe to use.
    monument wrote: »
    You don't need gates to stop cars, bollards can do that, and, as far as I could tell the last time I used it, the gates and CCTV as used now have not stopped the likes of horses on the path.

    Bollards won't stop motorcycles, but the gates should, in theory, only allow pedestrians and cyclists through.
    Have you come across horses on the path? I haven't seen any, I don't use it daily though.
    Can you imagine what you'd encounter without the gates?

    Aren't there only gates generally where the path crosses a road?
    You're going to have to stop and yield to traffic anyway.


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    nak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Any chance at all that the canal path might be regularly patrolled by Gardai and/or Wardens on bikes?

    That would be ideal. I'm guessing only a guard would be effective.
    monument wrote: »
    Do you work for SDCC, the ESB or Waterways Ireland? If not why on earth are you defending them?

    No connection to any of the above or any cyclist/walking/waterway organisation. I'm defending them (the gates and other security) because I believe without them, the path would become less attractive to walkers and cyclists for the reasons I outlined.
    monument wrote: »
    Surely the gates have made the route far less attractive and thus less safe to use?
    Far less attractive?
    How many minutes to you think the gates add to your journey?
    How much inconvenience is it really to navigate the gates?
    How much less attractive would it be for elderly walkers/women with prams/women cyclists in the evenings, to encounter motorcyclekids/sulkys/groups of drinkers?
    Certainly can't see how you think the gates make the route less safe to use.
    monument wrote: »
    You don't need gates to stop cars, bollards can do that, and, as far as I could tell the last time I used it, the gates and CCTV as used now have not stopped the likes of horses on the path.

    Bollards won't stop motorcycles, but the gates should, in theory, only allow pedestrians and cyclists through.
    Have you come across horses on the path? I haven't seen any, I don't use it daily though.
    Can you imagine what you'd encounter without the gates?

    Aren't there only gates generally where the path crosses a road?
    You're going to have to stop and yield to traffic anyway.

    I use the canal path everyday to get work as had too many run ins with idiots on Nangor Road. Gates don't bother me, worth it for peace and quiet and goes straight to my work. People did try to drive in when they opened some gates a while back.

    They have installed a different type of gate as a trial in some sections. The idea is that you can ride through. I can push through with one foot unclipped.

    The security office is manned all day, wasn't keen on using it by myself until I saw it. They have a tanoy system and a guard is responsible for each area.


  • #73
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Far less attractive?
    How many minutes to you think the gates add to your journey?
    How much inconvenience is it really to navigate the gates?

    How much is the route used by cyclists? Is it less than originally projected?

    Personally, I wouldn't use any route if it had kissing gates. It also means that I couldn't use that route with a trailer. I also have found them awkward when carrying two panniers. Perhaps this route has longer gates.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    How much less attractive would it be for elderly walkers/women with prams/women cyclists in the evenings, to encounter motorcyclekids/sulkys/groups of drinkers?

    Do the elderly/women with prams/etc. actually use the route much now?

    Do kissing gates deter drinkers? I guess it's hard to get plastic bags stuffed with cider through kissing gates. Or does the deterioration in hand-eye co-ordination as a result of intoxication mean drinkers can't open them?

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Certainly can't see how you think the gates make the route less safe to use.

    Well, if someone tried to assault you when you were cycling there, and you had to pedal like crazy to get away from them, they'd catch you at the next gate, wouldn't they? But at least they wouldn't be racing motorbikes as they killed you, and that's the main thing.
    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Have you come across horses on the path?
    monument has, I believe. They just go through the hedge.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Can you imagine what you'd encounter without the gates?

    There's one way to find out. You can always close them again if it's worse.

    All isolated routes have the same problem of risk of assault when it's dark. Perhaps they shouldn't even be open at all outside daylight hours. But that's a slightly different issue.
    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Aren't there only gates generally where the path crosses a road?
    You're going to have to stop and yield to traffic anyway.

    In that case do you have to stop three times, instead of twice? That is, get your bike through the gate; wait for a gap in the traffic; get your bike through the gate on the other side.

    (I should say I haven't used this route, but I have used other routes with kissing gates, and they're a pain. I also have lived in neighbourhoods where pedestrian permeability has been reduced to zero by means of fencing between estates to discourage roaming bands of teenagers -- who may or may not exist in reality -- resulting in everyone driving everywhere. This strikes me as equivalent to the old military tactic of destroying the village to save the village.)


  • #74
    nak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    seeing_ie wrote: »

    How much is the route used by cyclists? Is it less than originally projected?

    Lots of cyclists use it.
    seeing_ie wrote: »
    How much less attractive would it be for elderly walkers/women with prams/women cyclists in the evenings, to encounter motorcyclekids/sulkys/groups of drinkers?

    Do the elderly/women with prams/etc. actually use the route much now?

    Yes, again a lot in the afternoon. I'm female and use it everyday commuting.
    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Have you come across horses on the path?
    monument has, I believe. They just go through the hedge.

    Horses are mainly on the other side of the canal along the grass.
    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Can you imagine what you'd encounter without the gates?

    There's one way to find out. You can always close them again if it's worse.

    All isolated routes have the same problem of risk of assault when it's dark. Perhaps they shouldn't even be open at all outside daylight hours.

    The place is deserted in the morning and only get groups of kids hanging around in summer. They opened the gates and got cars and motorbikes on it, so they were closed again. If people like the new gates they will be put in the length of the route. They're not suitable for trailers though.


  • #75
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    The suggestion was to use bollards rather than gates, not to leave the gates open.

    Thanks for the clarification.


  • #76
    SoapArtAvenger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭SoapArtAvenger


    Going down O'Connell Street last Friday there was some guy walking in the cycle lane. I'm pretty sure he was drunk, but either way I couldn't move onto the road and I just braced to clip him. I had yelled at him, and I was slowing down as much as possible.


  • #77
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,160 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    SoapArtAvenger wrote: »
    Going down O'Connell Street last Friday there was some guy walking in the cycle lane. I'm pretty sure he was drunk, but either way I couldn't move onto the road and I just braced to clip him. I had yelled at him, and I was slowing down as much as possible.

    Slowing down as much as possible, indicates that you stopped and therefore shouldn't have hit him?

    Sorry to be an ass to your first post but it does seem like clipping him was avoidable, maybe not convenient but avoidable nonetheless.


  • #78
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    How much is the route used by cyclists? Is it less than originally projected?

    Personally, I wouldn't use any route if it had kissing gates. It also means that I couldn't use that route with a trailer. I also have found them awkward when carrying two panniers. Perhaps this route has longer gates.

    Quite a lot of cyclists use the route in my experience.
    Valid point about the trailer though, that amount of gates would become a real pain if you had kids or shopping in a trailer.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Do the elderly/women with prams/etc. actually use the route much now?

    In my (limited) experience I've encountered old couples/families out walking, couples with buggies/prams etc.
    It's a a shared amenity, not just a fast, safe cycle track.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Do kissing gates deter drinkers? I guess it's hard to get plastic bags stuffed with cider through kissing gates. Or does the deterioration in hand-eye co-ordination as a result of intoxication mean drinkers can't open them?

    lol, it's all about deterrence. If you have plenty of families/buggies/walkers etc I think it'll be less attractive to drinkers etc who prefer more isolated spots.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Well, if someone tried to assault you when you were cycling there, and you had to pedal like crazy to get away from them, they'd catch you at the next gate, wouldn't they? But at least they wouldn't be racing motorbikes as they killed you, and that's the main thing.

    come on now.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    There's one way to find out. You can always close them again if it's worse.

    Agreed, if the route is managed properly, opening the gates on a trial basis would be a great solution. Particularly at peak times for cyclists.

    e2a: another poster has posted that they opned the gates and people drove on the route.


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    (I should say I haven't used this route, but I have used other routes with kissing gates, and they're a pain. I also have lived in neighbourhoods where pedestrian permeability has been reduced to zero by means of fencing between estates to discourage roaming bands of teenagers -- who may or may not exist in reality -- resulting in everyone driving everywhere. This strikes me as equivalent to the old military tactic of destroying the village to save the village.)

    "Roaming bands of teenagers" (if they exist)don't bother me in the slightest, but I do think the percieved safety of a route impacts on the attractiveness of a route to other groups ie old couples/women with prams/women commuting in the evening.
    Pedestrian permeability is unaffected in this case, which we seem to agree is a good thing.
    Motorcycle/sulky/car permeability is affected though, which I think is a good thing.

    e2a:
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    (I should say I haven't used this route
    you're aware the gates are only just above waist high?


  • #79
    SoapArtAvenger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭SoapArtAvenger


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Slowing down as much as possible, indicates that you stopped and therefore shouldn't have hit him?

    Sorry to be an ass to your first post but it does seem like clipping him was avoidable, maybe not convenient but avoidable nonetheless.

    I probably could have stopped - it was one of those act first, think later situations. At least I didn't hit the guy hard.


  • #80
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Pedestrian permeability is unaffected in this case, which we seem to agree is a good thing.

    Yes, but my point was that in both cases one class of valid user is being inconvenienced so that another disapproved-of user can be excluded. I wasn't suggesting that pedestrians were being inconvenienced on the Grand Canal by these gates.

    It's possible that failure to exclude some of the disapproved-of classes is a price worth paying for for the greater convenience of the valid user. Perhaps not in this case; as I said, I haven't used this route.

    I can see that merely opening the gate would allow cars in, which is the one class of user that would invalidate the entire point of a cycle route. But it's possible to put a removable metal upright in the centre of the entry point. It wouldn't stop motorbikes, but I'm not sure how much of a problem motorbikes would be during the day.

    As I said, in general kissing gates inconvenience all cyclists, and completely exclude a minority of cyclists: those who use trailers, those who use tandems, those who use cargo bikes, and sometimes even those who have two large panniers. In fact, part of the original purpose of kissing gates in the UK was to exclude cyclists, so it's not really a suitable design for a cycle route.


  • #81
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    come on now.

    I was just joking about the gates blocking your get-away, but the Dublin Cycling Campaign actually did highlight this, I just found out.
    Much has been spoken about the social problems in the area and a number of people have reported being attacked along the route. In the incidence of social problems or a person threatening violence, the presence of a gate which forces a cyclist to dismount will prevent escape from trouble. It's very easy to imagine how one could potentially get cornered that way.
    http://dublincycling.ie/node/639

    But, once again, I really can't comment except in the most general way.

    I should head out one weekend and see what the route is actually like.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    nak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Pedestrian permeability is unaffected in this case, which we seem to agree is a good thing.

    Yes, but my point was that in both cases one class of valid user is being inconvenienced so that another disapproved-of user can be excluded. I wasn't suggesting that pedestrians were being inconvenienced on the Grand Canal by these gates.

    It's possible that failure to exclude some of the disapproved-of classes is a price worth paying for for the greater convenience of the valid user. Perhaps not in this case; as I said, I haven't used this route.

    I can see that merely opening the gate would allow cars in, which is the one class of user that would invalidate the entire point of a cycle route. But it's possible to put a removable metal upright in the centre of the entry point. It wouldn't stop motorbikes, but I'm not sure how much of a problem motorbikes would be during the day.

    Scramblers on the path were a big problem before the canal was renovated. As I pointed out before, they are currently trialling a new type of gate on the route like the ones they have in some Dutch cycle routes (and not all the existing access points have kissing gates). I see a lot of people with panniers.

    There aren't many cargo bikes in Dublin (we have one), so doubt the council thought about that when planning the canal route. They can only try and suit the majority. Wheelchair users can maneuver the gates ok.


  • #83
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Yes, but my point was that in both cases one class of valid user is being inconvenienced so that another disapproved-of user can be excluded. I wasn't suggesting that pedestrians were being inconvenienced on the Grand Canal by these gates.

    e2a:Exactly. You and I are being inconvenienced (slightly imo) for the greater convenience of less able users ie mothers with prams/old folks walking/women cycling at night.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    It's possible that failure to exclude some of the disapproved-of classes is a price worth paying for for the greater convenience of the valid user. Perhaps not in this case; as I said, I haven't used this route.

    I can see that merely opening the gate would allow cars in, which is the one class of user that would invalidate the entire point of a cycle route. But it's possible to put a removable metal upright in the centre of the entry point. It wouldn't stop motorbikes, but I'm not sure how much of a problem motorbikes would be during the day.

    e2a: Metal uprights in the centre of the path wouldn't stop people on horses, or sulkys, and kids racing mini scramblers is a problem in parts of Dublin, and according to other posters has been a problem in the past on this route.
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    As I said, in general kissing gates inconvenience all cyclists, and completely exclude a minority of cyclists: those who use trailers, those who use tandems, those who use cargo bikes, and sometimes even those who have two large panniers. In fact, part of the original purpose of kissing gates in the UK was to exclude cyclists, so it's not really a suitable design for a cycle route.

    What percentage of the overall cyclists thaty use the route use tandems(!), cargobikes(!), trailers or 2 large panniers? No offence, but I think thats a bit thin.
    I'd love to see all these types of bikes around, but don't see many.
    If we focus on the achievable aim of making the route attractive for "standard" cyclists of all ages and sexes, at all times of the day, then opening it to tandems etc will naturally follow, once a critical mass of cyclists occurs.

    (a flock of seagulls, a critical mass of cyclists :pac:)


  • #84
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    I was just joking about the gates blocking your get-away, but the Dublin Cycling Campaign actually did highlight this, I just found out.

    Quote:
    Much has been spoken about the social problems in the area and a number of people have reported being attacked along the route. In the incidence of social problems or a person threatening violence, the presence of a gate which forces a cyclist to dismount will prevent escape from trouble. It's very easy to imagine how one could potentially get cornered that way.


    http://dublincycling.ie/node/639

    But, once again, I really can't comment except in the most general way.

    I should head out one weekend and see what the route is actually like.

    In a hypothetical situation where you're running from an attacker the gates on this route won't stop you.
    If you're cycling from a hypothetical attacker you can leave the bloody bike at the gate :D- practically all the gates are at busy roads.

    You should take a trip out there, it's a nice cycle


  • #85
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    I'd agree that most of those minority categories are indeed very minority. However, trailers of one sort are not that minority. They are quite popular with parents going on recreational cycles with young children. I see them often. I have one myself, as well as a goods trailer, which admittedly I seldom see anyone else with.

    The comment about panniers was about two large panniers such as a touring cyclist might have. Or someone doing a week's shopping might use. The DCC article suggested that getting them through would be a bit of a squeeze. Again, I often use two large panniers myself.

    I'll take your advice and head up that way sometime soon. I'll be interested to see it. I understand the surface is very nice.


  • #86
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Personally, I wouldn't use any route if it had kissing gates. It also means that I couldn't use that route with a trailer. I also have found them awkward when carrying two panniers. Perhaps this route has longer gates.

    (I should say I haven't used this route, but I have used other routes with kissing gates, and they're a pain. I also have lived in neighbourhoods where pedestrian permeability has been reduced to zero by means of fencing between estates to discourage roaming bands of teenagers -- who may or may not exist in reality -- resulting in everyone driving everywhere. This strikes me as equivalent to the old military tactic of destroying the village to save the village.)




    I hate bloody kissing gates.

    Creating a cycle path and then deliberately downgrading its usefulness and attractiveness is the height of folly, IMO.

    I was prevented from accessing an off-road cycle path by a kissing gate on my very first outing with a trailer. Farcically, the cycle path in question has been touted as a potential core part of a cross-town cycle route. God help us if the same design is extended further.

    I complained to the local authority, who, after ignoring my email for a while, eventually told me that kissing gates "are not designed to accommodate cyclists to cycle through nor can they accommodate a cycle with trailer without compromising the purpose for which they are designed". They also claimed that their use of kissing gates has been approved by "disability advisors" but I have been told that disabled people are not fond of them either as they can be awkward to negotiate.

    Is there a single stretch of road anywhere in the country where motorists have to squeeze through an equivalent barrier?


    Kissing-Gate-Cycle-Barrier.jpg


  • #87
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    Very frustrating for trailer users, who should be incentivised in every way imo.

    What's a solution though to keep cycle/walking tracks safe and attractive for cyclists & walkers?

    A zero-tolerance policy? Any car/motorbike/horse found or photographed on a cycle path siezed and sold no questions asked?


  • #88
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    What's a solution though to keep cycle/walking tracks safe and attractive for cyclists & walkers?
    I can't comment any further till I've seen the route!

    (Except to say that the impression I've got from the foregoing discussion is that the gates adjacent to the kissing gates were temporarily opened, but then closed again because of cars using the route. Does that mean that motorbikes and horses weren't a particular problem during this period, and that a metal upright in the centre of the main gate might be sufficient, so long as the main gate is locked fully at night?)


  • #89
    turbodiesel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 553 ✭✭✭turbodiesel


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I hate bloody kissing gates.

    Creating a cycle path and then deliberately downgrading its usefulness and attractiveness is the height of folly, IMO.

    I was prevented from accessing an off-road cycle path by a kissing gate on my very first outing with a trailer. Farcically, the cycle path in question has been touted as a potential core part of a cross-town cycle route. God help us if the same design is extended further.

    I complained to the local authority, who, after ignoring my email for a while, eventually told me that kissing gates "are not designed to accommodate cyclists to cycle through nor can they accommodate a cycle with trailer without compromising the purpose for which they are designed". They also claimed that their use of kissing gates has been approved by "disability advisors" but I have been told that disabled people are not fond of them either as they can be awkward to negotiate.

    Is there a single stretch of road anywhere in the country where motorists have to squeeze through an equivalent barrier?


    Kissing-Gate-Cycle-Barrier.jpg

    I have the same problem with a route from my housing estate on the school run as i regularly see a queue of 10 or more people tryign to get prams/bicycles/childrens scooters, and themselves through at peak times......

    And I agree with a zero tolerance confiscation policy on motorcycles/horses who use the exit/entrance.


  • #90
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I don't understand how it is possible to engineer an obstacle for a motorcycle that poses no inconvenience to a pedalcycle.

    It would have to involve some sort of lifting challenge, but that would block access to grannies on Pashleys (or any other combination of feeble cyclist and heavy pedalcycle).

    The same goes for trailers/cargobikes and quads. It's almost as hard as enforcing a diesel-only driving lane.

    As for horses, I've seen what Black Beauty can do, with or without a rider.

    That being the case, we may to accept that enforcement-by-obstacle is not an appropriate approach, and that some other approach (e.g. surveillance and policing) may be more appropriate.


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Quite a lot of cyclists use the route in my experience.

    How many is a lot?

    The cycle counter on Grove Road along the Grand Canal between Harold's Cross and Rathmines (admittedly around some of the highest cycling commuting areas in the country) is reaching over 2,000 cyclists per day each weekday (around 1,000 in each direction).

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Well, if someone tried to assault you when you were cycling there, and you had to pedal like crazy to get away from them, they'd catch you at the next gate, wouldn't they? But at least they wouldn't be racing motorbikes as they killed you, and that's the main thing.
    come on now...

    ...Certainly can't see how you think the gates make the route less safe to use.

    You come on now, you are defending 11 or more gates on a 8km route!

    Gates like these ones are not attractive from a personal security perspective given that you get stopped and get boxed in. But on a much lower threat level it can just be very unattractive from a personal security perspective to have to pass such a narrow gap if there simply one or two or a group of people hanging around the gates.

    At least one location the gates seem to be already a magnet for graffiti which is very unattractive from a safety or attractiveness perspective .

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    ...another poster has posted that they opned the gates and people drove on the route.

    Opening the gates without doing anything else was self serving to prove them selves right.

    Inexpensive bollards will do an excellent job at stopping cars.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Far less attractive?
    How many minutes to you think the gates add to your journey?
    How much inconvenience is it really to navigate the gates?
    How much less attractive would it be for elderly walkers/women with prams/women cyclists in the evenings, to encounter motorcyclekids/sulkys/groups of drinkers?

    Yes, far less attractive. It's 11 kissing gates in 8km!

    More than just one or two people have said on threads here that they've just given up on the route because of the gates.

    A dismount is a massive inconvenience alone, never mind having to lift or navigate a bicycle by the gate and not being able to fit panniers etc. The gates makes it a no-go for cyclists with...
    • panniers, including shoppers / commuters / a very valuable tourists
    • any type of bike who are physical unable to lift their bike or otherwise navigate the gates
    • larger Dutch-style bikes which are becoming common around Dublin City
    • child seats in use
    • tandems
    • trailers
    • cargo bikes

    And for leisure cyclists who want to go for a cycle and not for a triathlon-like experience.

    Kissing gates don't stop groups of drinkers or other nasty people. Motorcycle should be dealt with by the gardai regardless if they are using the greenway or a field or the green in an estate.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Can you imagine what you'd encounter without the gates?

    If we believed all the hype we would never have had Dublin Bikes. A huge amount of people on here and in the media claimed in the strongest terms that the bikes would all simultaneously ended up in the river and the canals, be vandalised, and

    I'm not say there would be no problems, but the potential for problems is being hyped to the extrema.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Aren't there only gates generally where the path crosses a road?
    You're going to have to stop and yield to traffic anyway.

    Actually, there's not, not unless they've changed it recently. There's two or three gates where there is no road crossing or other road access. There is after all only three at-grade crossing along the whole route.

    In any case, in terms of time / energy use / annoyance slowing, stopping for traffic and starting again without dismounting is very, very different than slowing, stopping, dismounting, navigating the gate, stopping for traffic, navigating the gate, and starting up again. You're arguing against physics if you want to claim otherwise.

    At one junction (with Killeen Road, where there are three gates!) there is a distance of around 130m between the first kissing gate and the last.

    You can also add in queuing time with cyclists, walkers, prams etc at busy times. The last time I used it the delays at some gates were considerable.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    What's a solution though to keep cycle/walking tracks safe and attractive for cyclists & walkers?

    A zero-tolerance policy? Any car/motorbike/horse found or photographed on a cycle path siezed and sold no questions asked?

    Lots of the same straw man arguments here again. Cars can be stopped by bollards, horses were on the route last time I used it and motorbikes need to be policed.

    Furthermore, you're trying again to maintain that the current set up is attractive to cyclists in general (not just the few people who use it), when it is clearly not attractive to a large amount of cyclists and not at all accessible to many others.


  • #92
    DirkVoodoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,504 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    Looks like this is the root of the problem. The solution is easy:

    "You're really not that hot, get back on the footpath. Your friend can stay though".

    183017.png


  • #93
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    @monument with respect, I'm not going to answer your post in detail, the points you make have been addressed and the debate has moved on imo.

    Just for the record, no gates would suit me much better, I've no "vulnerable" family or friends that use the route, nor any connection to it.

    Looking at the way some other amenities in the city have been wrecked, I do think that the gates are the best solution currently.
    If you look at my posts, I've agreed that if the route was managed and policed properly the gates would be unnecessary and bollards would suffice.
    I can't see the resources for this being allocated in the current climate though.


  • #94
    psychward
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭psychward


    pedestrians should be forced to wear numberplates and display tax and insurance discs on their foreheads.

    Seriously though, College Green is the worst for me . Often when I have a green light and am trying to pass through to make that left turn onto Westmoreland Street from Dame Street, I find myself surrounded by a swarm of people on the road. Most of them usually look like tourists too. I thought they would behave differently and be more aware of jaywalking issues but seemingly not. I just slow down and stop if I have to. Stopping is usually safer as they often just seem completely oblivious to the risks... sort of like those hedgehogs which cross busy roads and get squished


  • #95
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    There's a reason that access is restricted by steel fencing parallel to the canal along the length of the paths.
    There's a reason for the security cameras along the length of the path.

    Without the gates, fencing and cameras, the relatively isolated canal paths would be a magnet for anti-social behaviour. Walkers and cyclists would find themselves sharing the paths with kids on scramblers, sulky races, canal-side drinkers (guilty, your honour) and the rest. You'd probably get drivers taking short cuts too.
    There was always an easily accessiblle path along there. I used to use it when it was just a rough gravel path and in a 9 month period I saw 1 burnt out car and zero anti social behaviour, (actually I say a couple of homeless guys, but they were pleasant enough). Considering some of the neighbourhoods nearby, that was quite low.

    The back roads around Grange Castle nearby are used very very regularly as a racing track for boy racers but noone would consider putting up barriers for car drivers. Imagine you had to get out of and back into your car 22 times a day to get to work and back?? These gates are a farce.

    I'd like to see the thing opened up completely for a few months to see how bad the antisocial behaviour gets. Then if joyriding is a problem put some bollards up that don't hinder cyclists. Kids currently congregate along the path for knacker drinking, with the gates in place. Cars can easily be excluded without hindering cyclists. So that leaves the occasional yob on a scooter, which I don't think is a huge price to pay for ease of movement, we're already dealing with them on the open roads.

    Were the pedestrian and cycle traffic to increase on the path due to ease of movement it might discourage antisocial behaviour. As of now it is unusable as a means of commuting. Its fine for a dander about with your kids or for a walk or a spot of knacker drinking. Its a pain in the hole to use it for its intended purpose particularly if more than 2 cyclists meet at a gate at the same time.


  • #96
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,803 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    The back roads around Grange Castle nearby are used very very regularly as a racing track for boy racers but noone would consider putting up barriers for car drivers. Imagine you had to get out of and back into your car 22 times a day to get to work and back?? These gates are a farce.

    Funnily enough, that precise analogy, though not that location, also occurred to me.
    petethedrummer wrote: »
    I'd like to see the thing opened up completely for a few months to see how bad the antisocial behaviour gets.

    They've apparently done this, and cars started using it. I haven't heard any mention anywhere of any other misuse, and as said already cars are easy enough to obstruct. If you do that, it's then down to whether there are too many horses and motorbikes using it, and whether they can be stopped in some other way if so.


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    monument wrote: »
    Yes, far less attractive. It's 11 kissing gates in 8km!
    Its more than that. I wasn't using the entire path.


  • #98
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    @monument with respect, I'm not going to answer your post in detail, the points you make have been addressed and the debate has moved on imo.

    It seems we have not moved on very much...

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    Looking at the way some other amenities in the city have been wrecked, I do think that the gates are the best solution currently.

    What other amenities in the city have been wrecked?

    My point re Dublin Bikes in my last post is important here -- you can't stop everything because of some unknown, unproven fear.

    seeing_ie wrote: »
    If you look at my posts, I've agreed that if the route was managed and policed properly the gates would be unnecessary and bollards would suffice.
    I can't see the resources for this being allocated in the current climate though.

    The gates don't seem to be needed now.

    Besides cars which can be stopped easily with bollards, there's already loads of large gaps in the greenery and fencing which already allows horses and scramblers access onto the greenway. The gates also do not deal with other anti-social behaviour, and can make the route less attractive from a personal safety or security point of view.

    Even if the gates stamped out the above (which it does not in the case of horses etc and cannot in the case of other anti-social behaviour), the price of restricting and stopping many primary users is too high.

    The potential for the canals as cycle routes is so high. They could become our "cycling superhighways" (closer to the Netherlands or Denmark, rather than London). If you only had to stop at junctions -- ie only around 3-4 times between Adamstown and town -- there is a huge advantage even for slower cyclists to not have to stop all the time.

    But there's too much fear of the unknown and nobody will bash heads of all those involved together.


  • #99
    nak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    See picture for new gate design. Here's your chance to have a say in what gets put in along the canal. email greenroute@sdublincoco.ie


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,720 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    nak wrote: »
    See picture for new gate design. Here's your chance to have a say in what gets put in along the canal. email greenroute@sdublincoco.ie

    Won't be able to fit a bike with panniers through that would you? Where exactly is that trial?


  • #101
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Dónal wrote: »
    Won't be able to fit a bike with panniers through that would you? Where exactly is that trial?

    Looks like it is east of Adamstown and just west of the R136 / "Dublin Outer Ring Road" (the overbridge for which is pictured).

    This is one of the gates not even at a junction. :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:


  • Advertisement
Advertisement