Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

mormank · 28-11-2011 01:08PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Strawmanning.

Skrtel still dived and feigned an injury that he did not have. He fell down holding his face and rolled about holding his face. The replays showed clearly that his face was not touched.

He basically made sure that the other player got a second yellow and sent off.

People can try and say it would be a yellow anyway, but Skrtel's acting was disgusting and it pisses me off more because it was a Liverpool player doing it.

If people want to write it off as just being part of the game or chose to ignore Skrtel faking an injury, then they should remember that when a player from another team does the same against us and not give out about the other player.

How many times would you suggest being the victim of simulation before condoning it yourself in your own players? It is rife in the game and I'm afraid if we are the only team not doing it we will be at a disadvantage. How many times would you 'turn the other cheek'?

Sappy404 · 28-11-2011 01:14PM

mormank wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that simulation, whether we like it or not, has become part of the game. Anyone who says otherwise is merely delluded.

But it's against the rules. That's not delusion. Seeing an exaggerated reaction to get a player sent off and dismissing it as a legitimate part of the game, and not an attempt to influence the referee, is deluded.

For what it's worth, I think it was a bookable offence as while Balotelli was looking at the ball, he wasn't moving towards it and knew full well he'd be challenging Skrtel. When you do that with your elbow at head height, you get booked. At the very least you're risking a booking. That said, Skrtel exaggerated it, as dis Suarez on a couple of occasions when fouled, and Adam should have been booked for diving outright.

The Chessplayer · 28-11-2011 01:17PM

Showing some great form the last 2 matches, hopefully we sustain it against the minnows. Every fan is well and truly fed up with cup final performances against the top teams and then drawing with the Stokes and Swanseas of this world. I'd sacrifice 6 points against United for consistency against the lower order any day of the week!

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 01:18PM

mormank wrote: »

How many times would you suggest being the victim of simulation before condoning it yourself in your own players? It is rife in the game and I'm afraid if we are the only team not doing it we will be at a disadvantage. How many times would you 'turn the other cheek'?

Simulation is against the rules of the game, so it should not be a case of turning the other cheek.

Clubs should be using video evidence to lodge official complaints against players that do it against them, and players who are clearly seen doing so in replays should be punished after the event by the FA.

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 01:22PM

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Showing some great form the last 2 matches, hopefully we sustain it against the minnows. Every fan is well and truly fed up with cup final performances against the top teams and then drawing with the Stokes and Swanseas of this world. I'd sacrifice 6 points against United for consistency against the lower order any day of the week!

That really is the crux of the matter. It is just so frustrating to see such good and hard working performances against the likes of City, and then returning to timid displays against smaller clubs.

What makes it worse is that some of the so called smaller clubs are not bringing park the bus styles of play either, they are coming to attack, and should be leaving space to be exploited.

mormank · 28-11-2011 01:34PM

Sappy404 wrote: »

But it's against the rules. That's not delusion. Seeing an exaggerated reaction to get a player sent off and dismissing it as a legitimate part of the game, and not an attempt to influence the referee, is deluded.

For what it's worth, I think it was a bookable offence as while Balotelli was looking at the ball, he wasn't moving towards it and knew full well he'd be challenging Skrtel. When you do that with your elbow at head height, you get booked. At the very least you're risking a booking. That said, Skrtel exaggerated it, as dis Suarez on a couple of occasions when fouled, and Adam should have been booked for diving outright.

Ah, you see, I don't like what you have done here. It is a pet hate of mine actualy and is a massive part of arguments on this site in fact. Now it's not something I agree with but it happens all the time. You have slightly tweaked what I said and what you said in previous posts to make you argument sound a bit better and mine sound a bit worse. (Notice the undertones??))

I never once said it was a 'legitimate' part of the game and yet you have pretty much quoted me as saying it. I said it was a part of the game and anyone who thinks it isn't is delluded. I stand by that statement, not the statement you put in my mouth saying it was a 'legitimate' part of the game. It is cheating, sure, but it is a part of the game nowadays whether we like to admit it or not. In fact I woud almost go as far as to say that anybody who thinks it is not part of the game nowadays is blind or has not watched a PL game in the past ten years!

mormank · 28-11-2011 01:36PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Simulation is against the rules of the game, so it should not be a case of turning the other cheek.

Clubs should be using video evidence to lodge official complaints against players that do it against them, and players who are clearly seen doing so in replays should be punished after the event by the FA.

I agree 100% with this post. That is what SHOULD be happening.

mormank · 28-11-2011 01:45PM

Kess73 wrote: »

It is part of the game now, but that does not mean it should not be condemned, and just because it is part of the game does not mean that people should not want to see it punished either on the spot or by using replays after the event.

I just feel that the more things are accepted as being the norm, the more and more it will happen. Football is becoming less and less of a contact sport with each decade that goes by, and I almost dread to think of what it will be like in ten years time or in twenty years time.

Let me put it to you another way. Take this new FFP rules that are coming in. There are meant to be sanctions and whatnot for teams who do not comply, right?? Now let's say when it comes in every team in the league complies except for Man City. Time goes by and it becomes clear that city have no intention of complying. Uefa stand by and do nothing in true UEFA style. More time goes by, months, years and still nothing from UEFA in terms of sanctioning city. Now how long would you recommend operating with this massive handicap before just saying screw it, we won't comply either as this is totally unfair. I simple refuse to follow 'the rules' when everybody/every other team is not following the rules. I'm sorry maybe that's just me but I don't like to be treated like a B%%%&

Fifa, Uefa and the Fa have shown themselves in the past to be corrupt and backwards organisations. They should be taking the lead with regards the cancer that has crept into our game known as simulation, along with other things such as racism, goal line technology, retrospective bans etc...however they have shown no interest in dealing with these and other issues(in many cases in fact, simply adding fuel to the fires) and until they do I refuse to accept or encourage my players to effectively play with a handicap.

I used to believe in treating others the way you would like to be treated but simply you get burned way too much that way. These days I believe in treating others the way they treat you and an eye for an eye.

Blatter · 28-11-2011 01:49PM

mormank wrote: »

I agree 100% with this post. That is what SHOULD be happening.

UEFA don't seem to want to implement any retrospective action against simulation because there are so many grey areas when it comes to it. There will often be a time where 50% of people think something is simulation, and the other 50% don't think it is.

Blatant cases like Busquets v Inter Milan should be punished though, and it's ridiculous that nothing is ever done about it. But they do see it as part of the game nowadays in most places apart from Britain.

mormank · 28-11-2011 01:52PM

Kess73 wrote: »

It is part of the game now, but that does not mean it should not be condemned, and just because it is part of the game does not mean that people should not want to see it punished either on the spot or by using replays after the event.

I just feel that the more things are accepted as being the norm, the more and more it will happen. Football is becoming less and less of a contact sport with each decade that goes by, and I almost dread to think of what it will be like in ten years time or in twenty years time.

Yes ok, but the rules of the game or the punishments are not decided by you or me and until the powers that be start treating it the way it should be treated I refuse to ask my players that I support to play as some sort of martyrs upholding justice and some sort of sense of decency by playing the game the way 'it should be played' even if that puts us at a distinct disadvantage whic I'm afraid in this case it does.

mormank · 28-11-2011 02:04PM

Blatter wrote: »

UEFA don't seem to want to implement any retrospective action against simulation because there are so many grey areas when it comes to it. There will often be a time where 50% of people think something is simulation, and the other 50% don't think it is.

Blatant cases like Busquets v Inter Milan should be punished though, and it's ridiculous that nothing is ever done about it. But they do see it as part of the game nowadays in most places apart from Britain.

I see your point about possible split decisions but as usual with UEFA and FIFA et al it is a flimsy ecxuse for them to do SFA about it. What's wrong with putting it to a panel , let's say, 12 qualified panelists to review tapes etc and come to a decision after time to reflect and really decide over leaving it to one or 4 people who are clearly out of their depth to deal with it in the spur of the moment? Surely you will get the most correct decisions that way, and that is really what we all want is it not?

Dont be at yourself · 28-11-2011 02:05PM

Great performance from us yesterday. We seem to be clicking much better now. We've now also played the big 5 (United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs), and have recorded 2 away wins, 2 home draws which were unlucky not to win, and a single loss, when we were down to 9 men.

Our next fixtures are:

Fulham (A)
QPR (H)
Villa (A)
Wigan (A)
Blackburn (H)
Newcastle (H)

That takes us up to the half-way point of the season. They're all eminently winnable, but if we come out of it with 12 to 15 points (of a possible 18), we'll be doing very well. It would leave us on 35-38, which if we repeated in the 2nd half of the season would have us safely in the top 4. 72 would have secured second place last season.

Meanwhile, Arsenal have to play City, and Chelsea have to play City and Spurs. The ground is clear for us to put a run together and put some distance between us and our rivals.

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 02:09PM

mormank wrote: »

Yes ok, but the rules of the game or the punishments are not decided by you or me and until the powers that be start treating it the way it should be treated I refuse to ask my players that I support to play as some sort of martyrs upholding justice and some sort of sense of decency by playing the game the way 'it should be played' even if that puts us at a distinct disadvantage whic I'm afraid in this case it does.

Well if we don't hold our own players to some sort of standard, then we have no right to complain if other players do the same thing.

Just because everyone is doing something wrong does not mean we the supporters should accept it or condone it in any way.

If a player does it in a game, then he has cheated. If a player does it on a regular basis he is a cheat.

If I want to complain about a Man Utd player or a City Player or a player from any other club when they have cheated, then I sure as hell better be doing the same when I see players from the club I support doing so, otherwise I am nothing more than a hypocrite and making myself a prime candidate for the role of Arsenal manager in terms of selective vision, and I really don't want to live in London again.:)

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 02:11PM

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Great performance from us yesterday. We seem to be clicking much better now. We've now also played the big 5 (United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs), and have recorded 2 away wins, 2 home draws which were unlucky not to win, and a single loss, when we were down to 9 men.

Our next fixtures are:

Fulham (A)
QPR (H)
Villa (A)
Wigan (A)
Blackburn (H)
Newcastle (H)

That takes us up to the half-way point of the season. They're all eminently winnable, but if we come out of it with 12 to 15 points (of a possible 18), we'll be doing very well. It would leave us on 35-38, which if we repeated in the 2nd half of the season would have us safely in the top 4. 72 would have secured second place last season.

Meanwhile, Arsenal have to play City, and Chelsea have to play City and Spurs. The ground is clear for us to put a run together and put some distance between us and our rivals.

I think we need to be looking at getting a minimum of 12 points from those six games.

Blatter · 28-11-2011 02:14PM

mormank wrote: »

I see your point about possible split decisions but as usual with UEFA and FIFA et al it is a flimsy ecxuse for them to do SFA about it. What's wrong with putting it to a panel , let's say, 12 qualified panelists to review tapes etc and come to a decision after time to reflect and really decide over leaving it to one or 4 people who are clearly out of their depth to deal with it in the spur of the moment? Surely you will get the most correct decisions that way, and that is really what we all want is it not?

I agree, that's exactly what should be done.

They'd much prefer the money they have to be going into their back pockets rather than investing it to improve the game. The fact goal line technology has yet to be introduced is a testament to that.

Unfortunately, the people who run the game are basically are a bunch of c*nts.

Jayob10 · 28-11-2011 02:17PM

mayordenis wrote: »

Yea it was douchebag behavior from Martin but I reckon it was still a justifiable second yellow, I think I'd advocate the same where it roles reversed.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here, I know that were it Eden Hazard you'd be making 101 excuses, there's a hint of dislike for Skrtel here at least.

There is clear dislike for Skrtel in the posts I think, Suarez is guilty of simulation every single game yet theres no vehement criticism of that.

mormank · 28-11-2011 02:18PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Well if we don't hold our own players to some sort of standard, then we have no right to complain if other players do the same thing.

Just because everyone is doing something wrong does not mean we the supporters should accept it or condone it in any way.

If a player does it in a game, then he has cheated. If a player does it on a regular basis he is a cheat.

If I want to complain about a Man Utd player or a City Player or a player from any other club when they have cheated, then I sure as hell better be doing the same when I see players from the club I support doing so, otherwise I am nothing more than a hypocrite and making myself a prime candidate for the role of Arsenal manager in terms of selective vision, and I really don't want to live in London again.:)

Hmmm...playing that card huh?? Ok. I'm not sure I'm condoning it. In a perfect world it would be eradicated from the game. Fwiw I think it is easy enough to stamp out and that is why it is so frustrating a subject for me. Simple start a panel who's sole purpose it is to watch incidents like this in the PL and start handing out lenghly bans for anyone found simulating and I believe you would almost completey rid the PL of it in less than a season.

K-9 · 28-11-2011 02:30PM

I assume Spearing and Coates will definitely get a game tomorrow after playing for the reserves last week. There really isn't much reason not to put out a decent team as Kelly, Flanagan, Robinson, Carra, Wilson, Maxi and Carroll haven't played much lately. Bellamy might be available again.

I don't think Kenny will put a purposefully weak team.

Doni

Kelly -- Carra -- Coates -- Aurelio

Spearing -- Adam

Maxi -- Henderson -- Bellamy

Carroll

Flanagan, Wilson, Downing, Lucas, Suarez on the bench.

We really miss Gerrard and Shelvey to give us options in the CM.

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 02:37PM

Jayob10 wrote: »

There is clear dislike for Skrtel in the posts I think, Suarez is guilty of simulation every single game yet theres no vehement criticism of that.

Guess you must not have read many of the match threads this season then. Have seen plenty of criticism, both justified and unjustified of Suarez in them.

If you think that what Skrtel did is fine, then fair enough. Personally I think it was cowardly and a very blatant attempt to try and make sure a player was sent off. He was not even clever enough to hold the side of his head that the player came from.

The only criticism I have had of Skrtel in the past was on his footballing abilities or rather the lack of top quality ability.

What he did yesterday was totally wrong, and I fail to see how the act can be defended by people. When Nani got up after the Carragher tackle, ran around, and then fell down again, plenty were calling him a cheat and worse. When Busquets did his face holding act plenty condemned him for it.

Aguero did the same face holding crap in the game yesterday and I would have loved to have seen the ref punish him for it.

But because it is Skrtel am I meant to pretend to have seen nothing or just go ah well everyone does it?

If Agger did it I would be just as disgusted by it, or if Lucas or Reina had done it.

Wrong is wrong regardless of what player does it, and I see no reason why criticism should be held back just because a player is generally liked.

D'Agger · 28-11-2011 02:37PM

I think we'll see Adam rested and Henderson with Spearing in the middle.

Kuyt playing off Carroll.

Bellamy won't play again too I'd imagine, so Downing or maybe even Ecclestone on the wing instead.

Would like to see Robinson given a go instead of Aurelio if we're bringing through youth players - Robinsons a very good prospect

28-11-2011 02:40PM

I'd start Maxi v Fulham.

He scored a hatrick there last season :cool:

Jayob10 · 28-11-2011 02:43PM

Kess73 wrote: »

Guess you must not have read many of the match threads this season then. Have seen plenty of criticism, both justified and unjustified of Suarez in them.

If you think that what Skrtel did is fine, then fair enough. Personally I think it was cowardly and a very blatant attempt to try and make sure a player was sent off. He was not even clever enough to hold the side of his head that the player came from.

The only criticism I have had of Skrtel in the past was on his footballing abilities or rather the lack of top quality ability.

What he did yesterday was totally wrong, and I fail to see how the act can be defended by people. When Nani got up after the Carragher tackle, ran around, and then fell down again, plenty were calling him a cheat and worse. When Busquets did his face holding act plenty condemned him for it.

Aguero did the same face holding crap in the game yesterday and I would have loved to have seen the ref punish him for it.

But because it is Skrtel am I meant to pretend to have seen nothing or just go ah well everyone does it?

If Agger did it I would be just as disgusted by it, or if Lucas or Reina had done it.

Wrong is wrong regardless of what player does it, and I see no reason why criticism should be held back just because a player is generally liked.

Simulation is disgusting yes, of course it is.

I'm just baffled at this crusade you seem to be on here condemning Skrtel. You say you would be as disgusted but I have not witnessed quite the rant from you about any other player of ours who has done it in the past.

Then again its a matter of opinion, I just happen to believe it was a sending off. Balotelli's inexperience/stupidity got him sent off. He had made 2-3 needless challenges after getting his first yellow also, so leading with the elbow is asking for trouble.

Yes Skrtel held his face and it was simulation but it was the challenge that got him sent off.

And yes I do read the match threads Kess, and it is obvious that you are not a Skrtel fan.

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 02:47PM

mormank wrote: »

Hmmm...playing that card huh?? Ok. I'm not sure I'm condoning it. In a perfect world it would be eradicated from the game. Fwiw I think it is easy enough to stamp out and that is why it is so frustrating a subject for me. Simple start a panel who's sole purpose it is to watch incidents like this in the PL and start handing out lenghly bans for anyone found simulating and I believe you would almost completey rid the PL of it in less than a season.

What card am I playing? I am giving an opinion. I am explaining my opinion by saying that if a standard is held to one group of players then the same standard has to be held to all. It is just the way I see things.

I did not say you in particular had condoned it, but I said we the supporters in a very generic manner. I feel strongly about cheating in sports, and as I said earlier it burns that bit more when I see a player from the team I support doing it.

I cringe when I see Suarez overreact to something, I cringe when I see Gerrard doing his starfish, just as I go "fcuk yeah" when I see Lucas or Adam take a fairly hefty knock and bounce back up again to go another round.

I also think that the fact that I have been involved in martial arts and boxing from a young age plays into my thinking as well. I have seen, landed, and taken heavy blows and I get annoyed when I see footballers reacting like they were shot to things that would have a 13 yo fighter glaring back at you.

28-11-2011 02:54PM

Skrtel was fouled, no question.

Whether it was a booking is probably debatable.

mormank · 28-11-2011 02:58PM

Kess73 wrote: »

What card am I playing? I am giving an opinion. I am explaining my opinion by saying that if a standard is held to one group of players then the same standard has to be held to all. It is just the way I see things.

I did not say you in particular had condoned it, but I said we the supporters in a very generic manner. I feel strongly about cheating in sports, and as I said earlier it burns that bit more when I see a player from the team I support doing it.

I cringe when I see Suarez overreact to something, I cringe when I see Gerrard doing his starfish, just as I go "fcuk yeah" when I see Lucas or Adam take a fairly hefty knock and bounce back up again to go another round.

I also think that the fact that I have been involved in martial arts and boxing from a young age plays into my thinking as well. I have seen, landed, and taken heavy blows and I get annoyed when I see footballers reacting like they were shot to things that would have a 13 yo fighter glaring back at you.

The self righteuos card, the holier than thou card. You know I cannot make a sane argument against it, it is foolproof. Of course it makes us hypocrites to condone one action for our players and condemn the very same action when a player from another team does it. I am merely saying that if while my prefered choice would be to beat them if you cannot achieve this you join them.

Iang87 · 28-11-2011 03:01PM

skrtel made a meal of it. So what why did balotelli lead with the elbow.

Why did aguero go down holdin his face when he was touched. Why did james milner flop when he wasn't touched.

It happens, best bet is to get over it

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 03:12PM

Jayob10 wrote: »

Simulation is disgusting yes, of course it is.

I'm just baffled at this crusade you seem to be on here condemning Skrtel. You say you would be as disgusted but I have not witnessed quite the rant from you about any other player of ours who has done it in the past.

Then again its a matter of opinion, I just happen to believe it was a sending off. Balotelli's inexperience/stupidity got him sent off. He had made 2-3 needless challenges after getting his first yellow also, so leading with the elbow is asking for trouble.

Yes Skrtel held his face and it was simulation but it was the challenge that got him sent off.

And yes I do read the match threads Kess, and it is obvious that you are not a Skrtel fan.

I'm a Liverpool fan, not a Skrtel fan or an Agger fan or whatever player you care to mention. I don't rate Skrtel as being anything other than a squad level player, but I would love for you to produce anything that I said in the past about Skrtel that was based on anything other than my opinion of his footballing ability. I think he is rash, poor at positioning, and needs to be led by the other centre half, but I have always thought him as being the honest pro type who gave his best on the pitch. Until yesterday I would never have thought him the type to fake an injury and it rankles that a player I thought was the honest type on the pitch would act like that.

I won't go on about him on this anymore though unless someone engages me on it again, as it is not worth the hassle of trying to debate whether or not Liverpool players cheating in such a blatant manner should be acceptable due to players from other teams doing it. My opinion seems to be a minority one here and so be it.

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 03:18PM

mormank wrote: »

The self righteuos card, the holier than thou card. You know I cannot make a sane argument against it, it is foolproof. Of course it makes us hypocrites to condone one action for our players and condemn the very same action when a player from another team does it. I am merely saying that if while my prefered choice would be to beat them if you cannot achieve this you join them.

There was no holier than thou attitude meant and I am sorry if it, to your understanding, came across that way. It certainly was not meant in a superfan manner nor was it any kind of dig at you.

I know where you are coming from with the if you can't beat them then join them comment, and I know that on many levels such a comment makes perfect sense as it can be hard to argue against in terms of the results such a tactic in general can achieve.

Jayob10 · 28-11-2011 03:30PM

Kess73 wrote: »

I'm a Liverpool fan, not a Skrtel fan or an Agger fan or whatever player you care to mention. I don't rate Skrtel as being anything other than a squad level player, but I would love for you to produce anything that I said in the past about Skrtel that was based on anything other than my opinion of his footballing ability. I think he is rash, poor at positioning, and needs to be led by the other centre half, but I have always thought him as being the honest pro type who gave his best on the pitch. Until yesterday I would never have thought him the type to fake an injury and it rankles that a player I thought was the honest type on the pitch would act like that.

I won't go on about him on this anymore though unless someone engages me on it again, as it is not worth the hassle of trying to debate whether or not Liverpool players cheating in such a blatant manner should be acceptable due to players from other teams doing it. My opinion seems to be a minority one here and so be it.

Well if you check my previous posts above you will see that I claimed you were so vehement in your criticism of his simulation because you don't rate him.

And I don't need to go through you previous posts to show your opinion on him because you have stated it above.

I'm not his biggest fan either in terms of his ability. I do however believe that Balotelli was skating on thin ice, having been already on a yellow, having committed needless fouls afterwards and also leading with his elbow in the incident that got him sent off.

Skrtel's play acting is disgraceful yes, as are most of the play acting that goes on in todays game. And like yourself I am from boxing background but it doesn't take a boxer/martial artist to come to that conclusion. I'm not saying its ok for Liverpool players to act in such a manner, I am the first to criticise Suarez for rolling around.

By the letter of the law, it was a dangerous challenge by Balotelli. On a yellow, needless fouls following the first yellow, leading with his elbow, he had to go. I think I might even recall there being blodd on Skrtel's mouth as he left the field. It's a different opinion to yours, and thats the debate you seem to be looking for. Hope its not too much "hassle".

I completely agree with ya on Skrtel rolling about being a disgrace. But I think your judgement of him as a player is whats leading you to go on your rant. I have not see such high moral ground taken when some of our other players have done similar and that just my observation.

Kess73 · 28-11-2011 03:31PM

K-9 wrote: »

I assume Spearing and Coates will definitely get a game tomorrow after playing for the reserves last week. There really isn't much reason not to put out a decent team as Kelly, Flanagan, Robinson, Carra, Wilson, Maxi and Carroll haven't played much lately. Bellamy might be available again.

I don't think Kenny will put a purposefully weak team.

Doni

Kelly -- Carra -- Coates -- Aurelio
Spearing -- Adam
Maxi -- Henderson -- Bellamy

Carroll

Flanagan, Wilson, Downing, Lucas, Suarez on the bench.

We really miss Gerrard and Shelvey to give us options in the CM.

On paper that is a solid enough starting XI.

I do think myself that one or two of the younger ressies may start, and would also prefer to see Lucas starting (damn imagine saying that three years ago

).

I think that Henderson could benefit greatly from having at least one good and on form midfielder behind/with him in a 4-2-3-1, assuming Henderson plays in the centre of the three. Given the signs he has shown over the last few games it could do his confidence a lot of good to be just able to play and let the more senior players be his back up from CM. I think he has been the player I have been most critical off this season as at times he just did not seem to show effort or interest, but he is starting to look like he may have turned a corner on that front.

He was decent yesterday and I thought his play after coming on as a sub against Chelsea was encouraging. He seems a different player to the one that played in the first 2.5 months of the season, and another 90 minutes with the right back up might see him improve a little more again.

Someone mentioned Eccleston, think it may have been PaulieC, and I would also love to see him get some time if he is not to be sent back out on loan. He is probably the attacking ressie that caught my eye the most in recent years, and I think there is the potential there to become a good wide forward and/or a striker or winger.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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