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Religion in pre-school

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  • 25-11-2011 2:53pm
    #1
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭


    My daughter is just about 3, and we've been looking at a playschool to send her to a few half-days a week (she currently goes to a childminder).

    We found a local Montessori that does a play school year for younger children, and it seems perfect. It's local, professionally run, the staff seem really nice, and we've heard good reports about it.

    The only small thing is that when my wife was over there talking to them, they mentioned the daily schedule, and how it started off with prayers in the morning. My wife just casually mentioned that my daughter wasn't baptised, and the teacher seemed a bit shocked, and mentioned that they wouldn't be able to cater for her to be taken out of the class while the prayers were going on. That's totally fair enough, we didn't request that and wouldn't expect it. I don't mind my daughter sitting in on the prayers, and she can do her own (quiet) thing or join in if she wants as far as I'm concerned.

    But I was wondering if anyone else has experience of this at the pre-school level? I was expecting it when it comes to Primary School, but I'm actually a bit shocked that we're facing it now when she's only 3. She's an inquisitive kid, so it's certainly going to bring the questions out in her - which I'm fine with, but I suppose I just wasn't expecting it so soon. Any thoughts or comments?


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    #2
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Did this local Montessori class advertise itself for catholics only?
    Because, in this day and age, she'd either want to be doing that or cut out the religious crap.
    She gets no applicants from other cultures or countries of different religions?


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    #3
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    prayers in the morning for 3 year olds are they for real


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    #4
    Liamario
    Registered Users Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭Liamario


    It never get easier does it. Religious freaks. I'm sorry, but perhaps that's a little harsh; though it's exactly how I feel.
    Why the hell would a creche be saying prayers at all, let alone to 3 year olds. Absolute madness.

    :mad:


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    #5
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think we all know why they get children doing it at that age - you're not going to convince a lot of adults that nonsense is true.

    Unfortunately playschools and such are run by citizens, and if certain owners feel as Catholics the kiddies should be saying prayers then there's not much you can do except find a different one.

    My daughter is luckily in a playschool where they don't seem to reference any of that stuff. Will be interesting to what they do in the runup to Christmas, though at 3 yrs old the nativity is just a story like any other.


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    #6
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    bluewolf wrote: »
    prayers in the morning for 3 year olds are they for real

    Start them young and all that.

    It's plain daft really. You're asking kids to chant words that couldn't possibly mean anything to them at that age (not that they mean much at any age, but that's a whole other ballgame).


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    #7
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,953 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Did this local Montessori class advertise itself for catholics only?
    Because, in this day and age, she'd either want to be doing that or cut out the religious crap.
    She gets no applicants from other cultures or countries of different religions?

    I wasn't there myself, so I didn't see the makeup of the class. But I'd be shocked if 100% of the kids that apply are good little white Irish Catholics. The Montessori is in a housing estate that has the usual cultural mix or modern Ireland (in a major County Town in the West of Ireland).

    It seemed that this was the first time the teacher in question had encountered such a thing as a child who wasn't baptised. Maybe she's very new, I don't know.

    Everything else about the place is perfect, so we're starting on Monday for 2 half days a week - so we'll see how it goes. You only pay per week, so if it doesn't work out, we can always move on to somewhere else.

    Maybe I'll teach her to recite Deuteronomy 7:2 in preparation.


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    #8
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    phutyle wrote: »
    It seemed that this was the first time the teacher in question had encountered such a thing as a child who wasn't baptised. Maybe she's very new, I don't know.
    Or maybe just the first time anyone has actually questioned her on the prayer-time thing.


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    #9
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    I can remember some American religious leader saying it was "sinister" that a left-wing party recruited teenagers...


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    #10
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    phutyle wrote: »
    But I was wondering if anyone else has experience of this at the pre-school level? I was expecting it when it comes to Primary School, but I'm actually a bit shocked that we're facing it now when she's only 3. She's an inquisitive kid, so it's certainly going to bring the questions out in her - which I'm fine with, but I suppose I just wasn't expecting it so soon. Any thoughts or comments?

    Maybe drop this fella a PM man, Ninja900. Has found himself in a similar situation. Although he didn't find out in advance. Might even be the same Montessori actually.

    Here's his recent thread from the Primary and Pre-school forum.


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    #11
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Indoctrinate them nice and young huh? :rolleyes:
    Fill their heads with your crap at an age where their brains haven't fully developed yet. Nice.


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    #12
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Like schools, I think Montesori/pre-school facilities can be a bit hit and miss. Pleasantly surprisingly perhaps, we had the opposite experience to you. A really brilliant non-religious Montessori who asked a staff-member to refrain or leave for trying to make religion an issue...look around, there may be other pre-school facilities that suit you/your daughter better. :cool:


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    #13
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Like schools, I think Montesori/pre-school facilities can be a bit hit and miss. Pleasantly surprisingly perhaps, we had the opposite experience to you. A really brilliant non-religious Montessori who asked a staff-member to refrain or leave for trying to make religion an issue...look around, there may be other pre-school facilities that suit you/your daughter better. :cool:


    That's refreshing to hear. More of that please.


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    #14
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don’t think you should be surprised at this.

    Education, and particularly early childhood education, is largely about imparting values and attitudes to children, and you do that by encouraging and rewarding virtuous behaviours and habits, and discouraging the opposite. For example, we teach our children to share their toys, or not to bite one another, long before we can have a discussion with them about why this is desirable behaviour. As they grow, and become more self-aware and reflective, they will think about and hopefully come to understand why particular behaviours are virtuous, and we’ll support them in that too. But we always start by inculcating the behaviour; understanding and reflection comes later. That’s just how human development works.

    Given that, in a family or a community or a society which thinks prayer is in any way virtuous or worthwhile, then it’s natural that children will be encouraged to pray. If you want to avoid that, you have to find a community - in this case, a school community - which doesn’t think that prayer is virtuous or worthwhile.

    In theory this is possible. The Montessori method emphasizes (among other things) the spiritual development of the child, but this doesn’t have to be understood in a theistic sense. My own daughter went to a Montessori school (in Australia) where space was made in the day for silent meditation (which she disliked, incidentally, since she wasn’t very good at sitting still). By all means, look around. But the realities of life in Ireland are that there aren’t that many Montessori schools, and there aren’t that many convinced nonbelievers, and there’s a limit as to how far you can ferry the child every day, and the combination of these realities may mean you have to take what you can get.

    It seems to me, though, that you can look on this in a positive way. At the age of three, your child will have no intellectual appreciation of the content of the prayers that she is encouraged to say. And she will be acquiring, at how ever basic a level, techniques of reflection and detachment, and a sense that making space in the day, and in your life, for reflection and aspiration is a worthwhile and even necessary thing to do. You don’t have to be a theist to benefit from this. Particularly if you can introduce her to the nontheistic applications of these skills.

    PS: I think that Beruthiel is wrong to suggest that this implies the Montessori in question serves Catholics only, and will get no applications from other cultures and religions. There are lots of cultures and religions that value prayer. It’s the atheists who are the outliers here, not the Catholics.


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    #15
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don’t think you should be surprised at this.

    Education, and particularly early childhood education, is largely about imparting values and attitudes to children, and you do that by encouraging and rewarding virtuous behaviours and habits, and discouraging the opposite. For example, we teach our children to share their toys, or not to bite one another, long before we can have a discussion with them about why this is desirable behaviour. As they grow, and become more self-aware and reflective, they will think about and hopefully come to understand why particular behaviours are virtuous, and we’ll support them in that too. But we always start by inculcating the behaviour; understanding and reflection comes later. That’s just how human development works.

    Given that, in a family or a community or a society which thinks prayer is in any way virtuous or worthwhile, then it’s natural that children will be encouraged to pray. If you want to avoid that, you have to find a community - in this case, a school community - which doesn’t think that prayer is virtuous or worthwhile.

    In theory this is possible. The Montessori method emphasizes (among other things) the spiritual development of the child, but this doesn’t have to be understood in a theistic sense. My own daughter went to a Montessori school (in Australia) where space was made in the day for silent meditation (which she disliked, incidentally, since she wasn’t very good at sitting still). By all means, look around. But the realities of life in Ireland are that there aren’t that many Montessori schools, and there aren’t that many convinced nonbelievers, and there’s a limit as to how far you can ferry the child every day, and the combination of these realities may mean you have to take what you can get.

    It seems to me, though, that you can look on this in a positive way. At the age of three, your child will have no intellectual appreciation of the content of the prayers that she is encouraged to say. And she will be acquiring, at how ever basic a level, techniques of reflection and detachment, and a sense that making space in the day, and in your life, for reflection and aspiration is a worthwhile and even necessary thing to do. You don’t have to be a theist to benefit from this. Particularly if you can introduce her to the nontheistic applications of these skills.

    PS: I think that Beruthiel is wrong to suggest that this implies the Montessori in question serves Catholics only, and will get no applications from other cultures and religions. There are lots of cultures and religions that value prayer. It’s the atheists who are the outliers here, not the Catholics.

    I think that it is entirely possible that we are diametrically opposed entities on some kind of fundamental atomistic level. In other words, you could very well be my bizarro world mirror image. Pleased to meet you. You hate peanut butter and cheese cakes, don't you?


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    #16
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,243 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    strobe wrote: »
    I think that it is entirely possible that we are diametrically opposed entities on some kind of fundamental atomistic level. In other words, you could very well be my bizarro world mirror image. Pleased to meet you. You hate peanut butter and cheese cakes, don't you?
    We'd better never meet in person, strobe, in case we annihilate one another!

    (But, no. I don't relish the combination of peanut butter and cheesecake. But either on its own is powerful evidence for a fundamental benevolence underpinning the universe, wouldn't you say?)


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    #17
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    We'd better never meet in person, strobe, in case we annihilate one another!

    (But, no. I don't relish the combination of peanut butter and cheesecake. But either on its own is powerful evidence for a fundamental benevolence underpinning the universe, wouldn't you say?)

    You obviously haven't met Strobe. If it's after 00:00 or 01:00* GMT then you really ought to reconsider whether you take a post by Strobe serious or not. Like JC we usually have box for him to post in while he's in that state. Normally, he tries to remove any past evidence of his actions by deleted posts of the more obfuscate nature. :)


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    #18
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    It is because everyone assumes that a white Irish kid is catholic or at least christian.
    It is still the default.

    We ran into this again last week, the topic of confirmation came up in the youth club my daughter goes to and she's no problem pointing out she will not be taking part, which caused confusion and consternation amongst the other kids to the point that the group leaders wanted to talk to me when I picked her up.

    My kid handled her self well and was able to say that there are many different religions in this country and have been for years and years mentioning the jewish museum and the mosques and quakers. The leaders weren't able for the conversations and the questions the other kids were asking and the fact they may have irate parents calling to them after the kids go home with questions.

    Turns out it was one of the leaders who opened the can of worms saying that all of those in 6th class would be making their confirmation, which had my kid pipe up and correct her that there would be those who would not be like herself.

    I told them that I was not going to tell my kid not to speak up for herself when people make silly generalisations and that they needed to adjust to the fact they do have a diversity of kids in the club and look for further training from Foroige if they felt they needed it.

    Many people still live in a white irish catholic bubble in this country and and the fact that the country is more diverse then what they encounter in their lives just never hits home until we burst it.


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    #19
    seeing_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭seeing_ie


    strobe wrote: »
    Maybe drop this fella a PM man, Ninja900. Has found himself in a similar situation. Although he didn't find out in advance. Might even be the same Montessori actually.

    Here's his recent thread from the Primary and Pre-school forum.

    What an eye-opening thead.

    The Catholic church is sending priests in to pre-school classes and they're handing out sweets.

    A step beyond the usual indoctrination imo.


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    #20
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    seeing_ie wrote: »
    What an eye-opening thead.

    The Catholic church is sending priests in to pre-school classes and they're handing out sweets.

    A step beyond the usual indoctrination imo.
    A nun in my primary school used to hand out jelly babies to kids who hung around at lunch to say the Angelus, even the buddhist kids used to hang around for it. We all still love Sister Nuncie though, regardless of our own religious beliefs.


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    #21
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    seeing_ie wrote: »

    What an eye-opening thead.

    The Catholic church is sending priests in to pre-school classes and they're handing out sweets.

    A step beyond the usual indoctrination imo.

    My parents always told me to report strange people offering me sweets...


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    #22
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Turns out it was one of the leaders who opened the can of worms saying that all of those in 6th class would be making their confirmation, which had my kid pipe up and correct her that there would be those who would not be like herself.

    I told them that I was not going to tell my kid not to speak up for herself when people make silly generalisations and that they needed to adjust to the fact they do have a diversity of kids in the club and look for further training from Foroige if they felt they needed it.

    Many people still live in a white irish catholic bubble in this country and and the fact that the country is more diverse then what they encounter in their lives just never hits home until we burst it.

    Firstly I say bravo to your kid for sticking up for herself and bravo to you for raising a child unwilling to be silence by what is essentially peer pressure. The more people like you (plural) who don't allow themselves to be dismissed / overlooked in such scenarios, the sooner such institutions will have to wake up and admit that Ireland is becoming more diverse by the day.


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    #23
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sharrow wrote: »
    The leaders weren't able for the conversations and the questions the other kids were asking and the fact they may have irate parents calling to them after the kids go home with questions.
    182921.jpg


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    #24
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Firstly I say bravo to your kid for sticking up for herself and bravo to you for raising a child unwilling to be silence by what is essentially peer pressure. The more people like you (plural) who don't allow themselves to be dismissed / overlooked in such scenarios, the sooner such institutions will have to wake up and admit that Ireland is becoming more diverse by the day.

    Tbh it has been a constant battle, which started 9 years ago when my eldest started primary school. There had been change but that is due to there being so many kids of varying back grounds in the primary school.


    This year a consent forum went out re taking the kids to the church for rites and ceremonies, in previous years all the kids had to go, now at least there is an opt out for it and the kids are supervised elsewhere, but that only came about after discussions about this topic on the late late show.

    Yes after 9 year and some bloody awful foul ups the primary school gets it.

    And we are breaking in the secondary school, which for some reason is not doing the jr cert program for religion but has their own non exam curriculum, which I was told he could be opted out of no problem and now I am being told we'd have to go to the board of management as they have a pastoral "duty" to all the children in the school. :rolleyes:

    Some how they think I won't and that the notion is some sort of deterrent. :pac:
    Not for a seasoned advocate in this battle.


    I know that my kids are at the start of a wave of agnostic/atheist kids hitting the school system, at least by the time many here have kids it will only be unusual and not unheard of. So I can understand why parents cave and just get the child baptised, it is the easier option, but if you are a person who sticks to their principles and for what ever reason your child doesn't go to and Educate Together school (ET does not automatically mean a quality assured mark) then you have to be pro active and ready to tackle these things when they come up.

    There are still no ET secondary schools and most VEC schools are still have a christian ethos and pastoral program. School makes up a massive amount of a child's life and it does take work to counter the 'norms' they encounter there, but it can be done.


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    #25
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Sharrow wrote: »
    This year a consent forum went out re taking the kids to the church for rites and ceremonies, in previous years all the kids had to go, now at least there is an opt out for it and the kids are supervised elsewhere, but that only came about after discussions about this topic on the late late show.

    What about kids of other religions? In my primary school in the 80s there were 3 JW kids in my class who were able to opt out of all religious activities in class and just do drawing or reading by themselves whenever we had religion. The 3 of them really made the most of it too by insisting they had to be excused from English and Irish lessons whenever the story in the text book was religious, so for 2 weeks before Christmas and Easter the only academic subject they'd do at school was maths. One of the boys was particularly skilled at finding the religious aspect of everything on the curriculum so they'd get out of lessons. They'd sit over in the side of the classroom smugly reading fun books or colouring in while we worked. How we envied them!


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    #26
    lynski
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    My son went to a private montessori last year for the government sponsored ECCE. I got a form in Oct asking for permission for him to take part in the nativity play, we declined and after a little discussion it was decided that his class would just do non-religious christmas songs and the other class would do the nativity. In fairness they had already split the montessori classes into 'going to local school' so therefore 'catholic' and going to other schools - including the local ET school.
    I raised the christmas issue in my daughters pre-school last week - it is a community playschool and she attends part-time, so we pay. She came home few weeks ago doing the hands together, 'thanks for ....' before lunch; so i wanted to make sure they were aware we are atheist.
    I just said to the leader 'Just in the run-up to christmas I wanted to make sure you knew are atheist' and she said that she was not aware of that but they would be keeping the whole thing quite low-key.
    I think there is change and we have to be the instruments, as long as we are not too timid. so glad for ET though.


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    #27
    Des Carter
    Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    When I was studying to becomme a teacher one of the lecturers said that the best tip he ever got was to start the class/lesson/day off with a prayer (he also pointed out that he wasn't a bit religious and didn't believe in God etc)

    He said it was a great way to settle the kids down and draw their attention towards the teacher as opposed to chatting and getting their stuff out. And as a result they would be more cooperative.

    I would say thats the main reason your playschool is doing it especially since its at the beginning of the class.


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    #28
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    *shrug* I get my young classes to stop talking and pay attention by making them sing doh.


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    #29
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,384 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    *shrug* I get my young classes to stop talking and pay attention by making them sing doh.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPrI8db74kA


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    #30
    Patrickof
    Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    Our Montessori story:

    Our twins (boy and girl) last year at easter (they were 3 and a half at the time) were brought to the local church to be shown the signs of the cross where the teacher told them the story of the crucifixion. The teacher also got them to practice standing with their feet together and their arms out, in a crucified pose!!!!

    Our daughters comment on all this was "jesus was bold so they nailed him up"

    We were appalled that such a cruel story would be foisted on such young kids.


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    #31
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^^^ Just on the topic of religious people using religion to scare the shit out of kids, here's one in yesterday(*) from Italy where a schoolteacher's graphic descriptions of her religious views reduced some kids to tears.

    So the parents complained, the headmaster suspended the teacher, the teacher complained to the Vatican which replied, saying that Ratzinger himself congratulated her for her "gesture" and her "sentiments".

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073104/Teacher-suspended-apocalyptic-lesson-good-evil-left-children-tears-wins-backing-Pope.html

    (*) Only from the Telegraph, unfortunately. Usual terms and conditions apply.


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