Sucklers Or Diary (Thinking of Getting back into Diary)

Dude1981 · 21-09-2011 11:15AM #1

Hi,
I am thinking of getting back into milking. We have sucklers (57 cows) at the moment but I would like a more regular and better farm income. My Father milked about 50 -55 Cows (220,000 litre) quota back in 2005, which he retired from (he has regretted it ever since!!).

A number of factors made him retire from the diary side of things including his age, time involved, quota value at time and the lack of help around the farm (I was away at college).

He always maintains that the diary was easier than sucklers and a better return, I suppose that’s more to do with his routine and way of life, up until exit from the diary.

Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated. Our current infrastructure is pretty good and my Dad was progressive and forward thinking.

At present out infrastructure is as follows.

Slatted shed & Milking Parlour (shed & parlour integrated)
>> Accommodation for about 80 cows including cubicles,
>> Rubber mates & Electronic scrapes (present & working)

Parlour
>> 6 unit (may need to be upgraded)
>> 700 Gallon Milk Tank present & working
>> Milking machine & cooling system present

Slatted shed 2 (separate structure, slats with mats no cubicles)
>> House weanlings

Surrounding land
>> 40 Acres (Still in paddocks with road-ways & water supply)
>> 16 Acre field (used for grazing and silage (mainly))
>> Another 12 acres available for rental

Silage Pad

We have another farm (104acres (80acres ours & 24acres rented) located about 3 miles away which was and is now been used for sucklers and beef enterprise.

Slatted shed
>> 50 cattle capacity

Silage Pad

Also, I work full-time locally as well. So time will also be a factor and consideration in the decision. Should we stick with the sucklers or try get back into Diary or how difficult will it even be to get back into Diary.

Thanks
Dude

vanderbadger · 21-09-2011 11:27AM

Dude1981 wrote: »

Hi,
I am thinking of getting back into milking. We have sucklers (57 cows) at the moment but I would like a more regular and better farm income. My Father milked about 50 -55 Cows (220,000 litre) quota back in 2005, which he retired from (he has regretted it ever since!!).

A number of factors made him retire from the diary side of things including his age, time involved, quota value at time and the lack of help around the farm (I was away at college).

He always maintains that the diary was easier than sucklers and a better return, I suppose that’s more to do with his routine and way of life, up until exit from the diary.

Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated. Our current infrastructure is pretty good and my Dad was progressive and forward thinking.

At present out infrastructure is as follows.

Slatted shed & Milking Parlour (shed & parlour integrated)
>> Accommodation for about 80 cows including cubicles,
>> Rubber mates & Electronic scrapes (present & working)

Parlour
>> 6 unit (may need to be upgraded)
>> 700 Gallon Milk Tank present & working
>> Milking machine & cooling system present

Slatted shed 2 (separate structure, slats with mats no cubicles)
>> House weanlings

Surrounding land
>> 40 Acres (Still in paddocks with road-ways & water supply)
>> 16 Acre field (used for grazing and silage (mainly))
>> Another 12 acres available for rental

Silage Pad

We have another farm (104acres (80acres ours & 24acres rented) located about 3 miles away which was and is now been used for sucklers and beef enterprise.

Slatted shed
>> 50 cattle capacity

Silage Pad

Also, I work full-time locally as well. So time will also be a factor and consideration in the decision. Should we stick with the sucklers or try get back into Diary or how difficult will it even be to get back into Diary.

Thanks
Dude

dude sounds like you have a good setup there with loads of sheds etc, sure if you are working already and can manage the 60 odd sucklers along with work you wouldnt be doing too badly would you? if you were to go milking it would be fairly hard to manage along with the job maybe

blue5000 · 21-09-2011 01:42PM

Hey dude,

In a similiar situation, got out of dairying in 06, fragmented farm with 40th gal quota, never regretted it though. If you worked out what you'd earn per hr in dairying vs suckling there would be fcukall difference. If you are happy at the day job stay as you are. TBH you don't have enough land around the parlour to justify going back into dairying.

Couple of questions though:

Do you want to be tied down 24/7 to milking cows?
How many suckler cows and how many dairy cows can the farm graze?
What sort of borrowings have you got? If they are high dairying will service the debt easier, but if low sucklers would give you a living.
Is your job secure?

and finally if you go back dairying will your old man be milking them?

F.D · 21-09-2011 02:24PM

Have you still got the quota?
Are you prepared to milk all year round? (dont be fooled into this low cost summer milk that will leave dairy farms and creamerys shut down for the winter malarkey)
If so when you have so much of the infrastructure in place why not just start small and see how you go you have nothing to loose especially when you can can keep the sucklers on the side until you either get up to the numbers you want or pull out again if it turns out to be too much hard work or not making what you thought which seems to be what blue5000 thinks

Dude1981 · 21-09-2011 02:39PM

Hey Blue,
Thanks for the reply,

I don’t want to be tied to Cows 24/7; however I do want the best possible return from the farm.

We had about 50 - 55 diary cows on over 50 acres; we have close to 60 suckler cows and we can move these between farms (50 & 80acres). Our fertilizer and meal usage is minimal now when compared to the diary era.

I’m lucky, borrowings are zero, my Dad did a lot over the last 30 years, including building 3 slatted sheds, parlour and all associated infrastructure (roads, silage pads, out-buildings, etc) from nothing. He also purchased another farm on top of all that. This pervious debt would have been serviced by the monthly diary cheque.

I suppose this is one of the main reason he regrets getting out of diary, he felt the return was a lot better from diary than suckler. But I’m aware of the extra cost of diary(ESB,Meal,Fertiliser), which maybe he didn’t fully consider either.

My Job is secure and my work hours are flexible

Dude1981 · 21-09-2011 02:43PM

Hey vanderbadger,
Thanks for reply, I suppose I just want to get the best possible return from the farm, but I also want to have a life as well. The milking would also have to be a part-time job, as I couldn’t leave my current position.

Tipp Man · 21-09-2011 03:07PM

Am I correct in thinking that you have all the diary facilities on a 55 acre block and then have a further 80 acres a few miles away?

If so this is what i would do:

Milk 70 cows (February calvers, would go British Fr myself) on the 55 acre block - cutting maybe 15 acres for first cut silage. Cut a further 15 acres or so on the 80 acre block to winter the cows. Depending on where you are in the country and length of winter etc this should feed them fairly easily.

Put 30 of the cows in calf to friesan giving 15 FR replacements and 15 FR bull calves. Put remaining 40 cows to AA bull. Rear all calves on 80 acre block to year and half age. You would have 20 AA heifers for the factory at 18 months and you would have 20 AA bullocks and 20 Freisan bullocks to sell in mart at 18 months.

From above post you have no borrowings - if you did above then you'd be better off than a lot of fellas with 150 cows and a lot of borrowings. You'd should bank nearly all your cattle sales every year - not too many dairy fellas with borrowings would match that

Main problem i see is work as plenty of work in above system and if you have a full time job then the auld man will be very busy, is he fit enough/up to it??

JohnBoy · 21-09-2011 04:08PM

I can't see how part time dairying can work.

it's doable sure, but at what cost to yourself?

If you want a part time option then become as efficient as possible at the suckler game

JohnBoy · 21-09-2011 04:09PM

I can't see how part time dairying can work.

it's doable sure, but at what cost to yourself?

If you want a part time option then become as efficient as possible at the suckler game

Tipp Man's suggestion is quite good for a full-time job

vanderbadger · 21-09-2011 04:23PM

Dude1981 wrote: »

Hey vanderbadger,
Thanks for reply, I suppose I just want to get the best possible return from the farm, but I also want to have a life as well. The milking would also have to be a part-time job, as I couldn’t leave my current position.

this is an interesting thread considering how many of us work as well as farm..
to be honest I struggle abit with sucklers and working sometimes and I wouldnt have anything like the numbers you have..I dont have any help at home though, id say milking and working would be tough going now unless as one of the lads said your dad was helping out

warfie35 · 21-09-2011 04:48PM

hi dude 1981,
If your job is safe & hours flexible, i think you seriously consider going back into dairying,why not take on a lad for evening milkings,
would free up time for other jobs when you get in from work out.If your old fella is fit to help out,be great,just to have him around during the day while your at work, best of luck in your decision,let us know what you decide.

whelan1 · 21-09-2011 06:12PM

sorry to be blunt but when your dad got out of cows in 2005 why did you not have an interest then to carry it on, why wait 6 years ?

Farfield · 21-09-2011 07:50PM

Dude 1981 - i'm in the same boat as you at present with job etc. I am giving serious thought to getting going with milking once a day for a year or two with British Friesan's for a year or two, keeping both going, upping the cow numbers and then move out of the day job full time into farming. I have no debt either and want to use farm and job cash flow to get a real good set up going and try to buy another bit of land close by that lies into me.

Have you considered/researched once a day milking as an option?

irishh_bob · 21-09-2011 08:08PM

whelan1 wrote: »

sorry to be blunt but when your dad got out of cows in 2005 why did you not have an interest then to carry it on, why wait 6 years ?

id hazard a guess that the celtic tiger was still roaring proudly in 2005 and the celtic cow wasnt being appreciated by the market , i.e , outside the farm gate paid better

22-09-2011 10:27AM

considered a robot?
you'll still be tied but not to fixed times and it may suit if your are self employed for example. high initial cost though. suited to indoor year round milking sytems. grazing can work but that bit more difficult if your working off farm.

i'd stick with the suckers if off farm job is ok though

Farfield · 22-09-2011 12:10PM

Have thought of the robots ok, but i have a fair amount of land round the yard and grazing is the cheapest option. I know robots dont work that well i am told with grazing, so its the parlour! Sticking with suckling not an option. I want to dairy farm full time in a few years.

22-09-2011 01:10PM

Farfield wrote: »

Have thought of the robots ok, but i have a fair amount of land round the yard and grazing is the cheapest option. I know robots dont work that well i am told with grazing, so its the parlour! Sticking with suckling not an option. I want to dairy farm full time in a few years.

dont be too quick to dismiss robots. grazing is being done but it does require a high level of management. lots of robots threads on bff. sounds like you have a nice grazing platform around the yard is important for grazing to work. They usually work with an A-B-C paddock system that forces cows to walk past the robot. very good information on bff. but maybe you like pulling teats:pac::pac::pac::pac:

irishh_bob · 22-09-2011 01:29PM

Farfield wrote: »

Have thought of the robots ok, but i have a fair amount of land round the yard and grazing is the cheapest option. I know robots dont work that well i am told with grazing, so its the parlour! Sticking with suckling not an option. I want to dairy farm full time in a few years.

robots are for countrys like the usa , holland etc where cows are inside all year round

whelan1 · 22-09-2011 01:32PM

49801 wrote: »

considered a robot?
you'll still be tied but not to fixed times and it may suit if your are self employed for example. high initial cost though. suited to indoor year round milking sytems. grazing can work but that bit more difficult if your working off farm.

i'd stick with the suckers if off farm job is ok though

we can all dream , i suppose it depends what the off farm job is , maybe it could fund a robot

John_F · 22-09-2011 02:14PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

robots are for countrys like the usa , holland etc where cows are inside all year round

think you neeed to broaden your mind there bob, seen farm with robots working with grazing, visits go down compared to indoor full time, but key is to keep the cow coming in to go onto fresh grass. moorepark have a fullwood merlin installed on a farm on a grass based system, farmers in the uk are doing it, most of them are buffer feeding which helps visits. dont think delaval and fullwood would be following lely to the irish market unless they thought it would work, alot of money goes into training service men on these machines.

@Farfield, instead of replying to your other thread (computer slow :rolleyes: ) i dont think oad would work on any cow when she comes into peak unless she peaks v v low....

F.D · 22-09-2011 06:58PM

farfield i seen both lely and delaval robots at the ploughing today, lely even had an example of the grazing system working on some farm here in ireland on display and i know they have some dealer down south advertising opendays at certain times of the year so, maybe if you got started with the old set up and were confident in the future of milk it could be something you could work towards rather than spending it straight away on a shiney new parlour you have to stand in for 20 years
look at all options before you spend any money, i think 49801 has a point about it been a bit more flexible

Farfield · 22-09-2011 09:56PM

Thankyou guys for the advice. Before i set all up i will visit our local lely robot centre which is right beside me and some of their sort of grazing focus type farms. It would suit me really well to keep the day job (which does pay very well) and maybe look at this alright, but i need a lot of convincing that it can work well with grazing.

John_F · 22-09-2011 10:02PM

done a quick search on bff there for robot

http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28788 is the big one but plenty more in the first link! some very interesting reading!

Tipp Man · 23-09-2011 09:38AM

Am not that impressed with robots personally although that is based purely on what i have been reading, not on any experience. The cost/output ratio seems all wrong to me.

Admittedly you don't have the committment and structure of always being there for morning and evening milking but it does seem that the guys with robots spend a hell of a lot of time tending to robot alarms and chasing after cows who haven't gone through the robot etc.

I'd also be worried about farmers becoming disconected from their cows - cows becoming wilder due to less human interaction and farmers not knowing there cows as well as they should.

It seems to me that you are subsituting 1 job for another - will stick to the herringbone myself

23-09-2011 10:11AM

i didn't really intend to divert the whole thread towards robots. just suggesting it does deserve due consideration in your situation. i know zero about dairying but i have found the threads on bff most interesting.
any system needs to be assessed on a cow, labour/lifestyle, financial point of view.
From what i have read i cant agree with robot farmers becoming disconnected with their cows. the comments on bff suggest that they get to spend more focused time with their cows... health, diet. not just pulling teats. fetching can be a problem but that is more of an indicator that you've got your recent management practices wrong. once a day should be sufficient. it is a different mindset of dairying to what people are used too. that doesnt mean its wrong... just different. alarms are an issue but often the alarms are non critical and it takes the farmer a while to get used to them.

jeff greene · 23-09-2011 11:53AM

:eek: There is an elephant right over there:eek:

Quota, processing rights, whatever name they'll call it. Have any of you prospective dairy farmers gone to who ever your coop is and asked about them?

pakalasa · 23-09-2011 12:19PM

I've seen a lot of robots working in factories. They nearly always work on a 'pick and place' basis, that is they pick up something and move it somewhere else. They are continously doing this. The robotic milkers dont work like this. The arm of the robot is basically doing nothing, just sitting there, while the cow is being milked. Surprising they dont have the robots just taking off and on the clusters. That way they could have a lot higher output.

bbam · 23-09-2011 12:19PM

OP it sounds like you have a reasonable set up that could be put back into action with a minimal spend equipment wise... Cows and quota would be a different story..

Still my biggest fear would be milk prices post 2015.

Earlier someone stated there was no money in beef, there is small money in beef, mainly because the factories control the price downwards based on supply quantities... Lots of cattle results in poor prices, few cattle results in higher prices..
IMHO milk will move the same way post the quotas.. during peak supply times milk prices could be slashed back to the production costs or less with the decent prices only being paid for out of season milk, penalties for bacteria/scc and the like will probably also increase..

John_F · 23-09-2011 09:49PM

pakalasa wrote: »

I've seen a lot of robots working in factories. They nearly always work on a 'pick and place' basis, that is they pick up something and move it somewhere else. They are continously doing this. The robotic milkers dont work like this. The arm of the robot is basically doing nothing, just sitting there, while the cow is being milked. Surprising they dont have the robots just taking off and on the clusters. That way they could have a lot higher output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKR6DNL2N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VETy6s8rAZs

robots have become part of most areas of production with a long time, trouble with cows is there cows and unpredictable haha. Some have one arm that works between two cows (GEA and galaxy)

ya agreee with tippman that it depends on the system, and you do need alot of milk to pay for it! dont agree with them being disconected from the cows though! i just find the behaviour of the cow part really interesting

spot on jeff, you have to at least buy some bit of quota to start off (unless you are a dept new entrant) and cant see this changing much post 2015

Humpty Dumpty · 22-11-2011 02:25PM

Just a note. In a new build situation robots are very competitive. I know the farmers that put them in. They wont take them out for love nor money.

cosatron · 22-11-2011 03:07PM

I don’t want to be tied to Cows 24/7; however I do want the best possible return from the farm.

If your not going to be committed to your cows 24/7, no matter what type of milk you produce, i.e summer milk or winter milk. you better forget about it. a farmer said to me a while ago about dairy, sure the cows don't know its christmas and how true. and as jeff greene has stated, its the worst possible time to go into milk until the quota issues are resolved in 2015.

Sucklers Or Diary (Thinking of Getting back into Diary)

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