Sucklers Or Diary (Thinking of Getting back into Diary)

Dude1981

Hi,
I am thinking of getting back into milking. We have sucklers (57 cows) at the moment but I would like a more regular and better farm income. My Father milked about 50 -55 Cows (220,000 litre) quota back in 2005, which he retired from (he has regretted it ever since!!).

A number of factors made him retire from the diary side of things including his age, time involved, quota value at time and the lack of help around the farm (I was away at college).

He always maintains that the diary was easier than sucklers and a better return, I suppose that’s more to do with his routine and way of life, up until exit from the diary.

Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated. Our current infrastructure is pretty good and my Dad was progressive and forward thinking.

At present out infrastructure is as follows.

Slatted shed & Milking Parlour (shed & parlour integrated)
>> Accommodation for about 80 cows including cubicles,
>> Rubber mates & Electronic scrapes (present & working)

Parlour
>> 6 unit (may need to be upgraded)
>> 700 Gallon Milk Tank present & working
>> Milking machine & cooling system present

Slatted shed 2 (separate structure, slats with mats no cubicles)
>> House weanlings

Surrounding land
>> 40 Acres (Still in paddocks with road-ways & water supply)
>> 16 Acre field (used for grazing and silage (mainly))
>> Another 12 acres available for rental

Silage Pad

We have another farm (104acres (80acres ours & 24acres rented) located about 3 miles away which was and is now been used for sucklers and beef enterprise.

Slatted shed
>> 50 cattle capacity

Silage Pad

Also, I work full-time locally as well. So time will also be a factor and consideration in the decision. Should we stick with the sucklers or try get back into Diary or how difficult will it even be to get back into Diary.

Thanks
Dude

vanderbadger

Dude1981 wrote: »

Hi,
I am thinking of getting back into milking. We have sucklers (57 cows) at the moment but I would like a more regular and better farm income. My Father milked about 50 -55 Cows (220,000 litre) quota back in 2005, which he retired from (he has regretted it ever since!!).

A number of factors made him retire from the diary side of things including his age, time involved, quota value at time and the lack of help around the farm (I was away at college).

He always maintains that the diary was easier than sucklers and a better return, I suppose that’s more to do with his routine and way of life, up until exit from the diary.

Any opinions/advice would be greatly appreciated. Our current infrastructure is pretty good and my Dad was progressive and forward thinking.

At present out infrastructure is as follows.

Slatted shed & Milking Parlour (shed & parlour integrated)
>> Accommodation for about 80 cows including cubicles,
>> Rubber mates & Electronic scrapes (present & working)

Parlour
>> 6 unit (may need to be upgraded)
>> 700 Gallon Milk Tank present & working
>> Milking machine & cooling system present

Slatted shed 2 (separate structure, slats with mats no cubicles)
>> House weanlings

Surrounding land
>> 40 Acres (Still in paddocks with road-ways & water supply)
>> 16 Acre field (used for grazing and silage (mainly))
>> Another 12 acres available for rental

Silage Pad

We have another farm (104acres (80acres ours & 24acres rented) located about 3 miles away which was and is now been used for sucklers and beef enterprise.

Slatted shed
>> 50 cattle capacity

Silage Pad

Also, I work full-time locally as well. So time will also be a factor and consideration in the decision. Should we stick with the sucklers or try get back into Diary or how difficult will it even be to get back into Diary.

Thanks
Dude

dude sounds like you have a good setup there with loads of sheds etc, sure if you are working already and can manage the 60 odd sucklers along with work you wouldnt be doing too badly would you? if you were to go milking it would be fairly hard to manage along with the job maybe

blue5000

Hey dude,

In a similiar situation, got out of dairying in 06, fragmented farm with 40th gal quota, never regretted it though. If you worked out what you'd earn per hr in dairying vs suckling there would be fcukall difference. If you are happy at the day job stay as you are. TBH you don't have enough land around the parlour to justify going back into dairying.

Couple of questions though:

Do you want to be tied down 24/7 to milking cows?
How many suckler cows and how many dairy cows can the farm graze?
What sort of borrowings have you got? If they are high dairying will service the debt easier, but if low sucklers would give you a living.
Is your job secure?

and finally if you go back dairying will your old man be milking them?

F.D

Have you still got the quota?
Are you prepared to milk all year round? (dont be fooled into this low cost summer milk that will leave dairy farms and creamerys shut down for the winter malarkey)
If so when you have so much of the infrastructure in place why not just start small and see how you go you have nothing to loose especially when you can can keep the sucklers on the side until you either get up to the numbers you want or pull out again if it turns out to be too much hard work or not making what you thought which seems to be what blue5000 thinks

Dude1981

Hey Blue,
Thanks for the reply,

I don’t want to be tied to Cows 24/7; however I do want the best possible return from the farm.

We had about 50 - 55 diary cows on over 50 acres; we have close to 60 suckler cows and we can move these between farms (50 & 80acres). Our fertilizer and meal usage is minimal now when compared to the diary era.

I’m lucky, borrowings are zero, my Dad did a lot over the last 30 years, including building 3 slatted sheds, parlour and all associated infrastructure (roads, silage pads, out-buildings, etc) from nothing. He also purchased another farm on top of all that. This pervious debt would have been serviced by the monthly diary cheque.

I suppose this is one of the main reason he regrets getting out of diary, he felt the return was a lot better from diary than suckler. But I’m aware of the extra cost of diary(ESB,Meal,Fertiliser), which maybe he didn’t fully consider either.

My Job is secure and my work hours are flexible

Dude1981

Hey vanderbadger,
Thanks for reply, I suppose I just want to get the best possible return from the farm, but I also want to have a life as well. The milking would also have to be a part-time job, as I couldn’t leave my current position.

Tipp Man

Am I correct in thinking that you have all the diary facilities on a 55 acre block and then have a further 80 acres a few miles away?

If so this is what i would do:

Milk 70 cows (February calvers, would go British Fr myself) on the 55 acre block - cutting maybe 15 acres for first cut silage. Cut a further 15 acres or so on the 80 acre block to winter the cows. Depending on where you are in the country and length of winter etc this should feed them fairly easily.

Put 30 of the cows in calf to friesan giving 15 FR replacements and 15 FR bull calves. Put remaining 40 cows to AA bull. Rear all calves on 80 acre block to year and half age. You would have 20 AA heifers for the factory at 18 months and you would have 20 AA bullocks and 20 Freisan bullocks to sell in mart at 18 months.

From above post you have no borrowings - if you did above then you'd be better off than a lot of fellas with 150 cows and a lot of borrowings. You'd should bank nearly all your cattle sales every year - not too many dairy fellas with borrowings would match that

Main problem i see is work as plenty of work in above system and if you have a full time job then the auld man will be very busy, is he fit enough/up to it??

JohnBoy

I can't see how part time dairying can work.

it's doable sure, but at what cost to yourself?

If you want a part time option then become as efficient as possible at the suckler game

JohnBoy

I can't see how part time dairying can work.

it's doable sure, but at what cost to yourself?

If you want a part time option then become as efficient as possible at the suckler game


Tipp Man's suggestion is quite good for a full-time job

vanderbadger

Dude1981 wrote: »

Hey vanderbadger,
Thanks for reply, I suppose I just want to get the best possible return from the farm, but I also want to have a life as well. The milking would also have to be a part-time job, as I couldn’t leave my current position.

this is an interesting thread considering how many of us work as well as farm..
to be honest I struggle abit with sucklers and working sometimes and I wouldnt have anything like the numbers you have..I dont have any help at home though, id say milking and working would be tough going now unless as one of the lads said your dad was helping out

warfie35

hi dude 1981,
If your job is safe & hours flexible, i think you seriously consider going back into dairying,why not take on a lad for evening milkings,
would free up time for other jobs when you get in from work out.If your old fella is fit to help out,be great,just to have him around during the day while your at work, best of luck in your decision,let us know what you decide.

whelan1

sorry to be blunt but when your dad got out of cows in 2005 why did you not have an interest then to carry it on, why wait 6 years ?

Farfield

Dude 1981 - i'm in the same boat as you at present with job etc. I am giving serious thought to getting going with milking once a day for a year or two with British Friesan's for a year or two, keeping both going, upping the cow numbers and then move out of the day job full time into farming. I have no debt either and want to use farm and job cash flow to get a real good set up going and try to buy another bit of land close by that lies into me.

Have you considered/researched once a day milking as an option?

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

sorry to be blunt but when your dad got out of cows in 2005 why did you not have an interest then to carry it on, why wait 6 years ?

id hazard a guess that the celtic tiger was still roaring proudly in 2005 and the celtic cow wasnt being appreciated by the market , i.e , outside the farm gate paid better

49801

considered a robot?
you'll still be tied but not to fixed times and it may suit if your are self employed for example. high initial cost though. suited to indoor year round milking sytems. grazing can work but that bit more difficult if your working off farm.

i'd stick with the suckers if off farm job is ok though

Farfield

Have thought of the robots ok, but i have a fair amount of land round the yard and grazing is the cheapest option. I know robots dont work that well i am told with grazing, so its the parlour! Sticking with suckling not an option. I want to dairy farm full time in a few years.

49801

Farfield wrote: »

Have thought of the robots ok, but i have a fair amount of land round the yard and grazing is the cheapest option. I know robots dont work that well i am told with grazing, so its the parlour! Sticking with suckling not an option. I want to dairy farm full time in a few years.

dont be too quick to dismiss robots. grazing is being done but it does require a high level of management. lots of robots threads on bff. sounds like you have a nice grazing platform around the yard is important for grazing to work. They usually work with an A-B-C paddock system that forces cows to walk past the robot. very good information on bff. but maybe you like pulling teats:pac::pac::pac::pac:

irishh_bob

Farfield wrote: »

Have thought of the robots ok, but i have a fair amount of land round the yard and grazing is the cheapest option. I know robots dont work that well i am told with grazing, so its the parlour! Sticking with suckling not an option. I want to dairy farm full time in a few years.

robots are for countrys like the usa , holland etc where cows are inside all year round

whelan1

49801 wrote: »

considered a robot?
you'll still be tied but not to fixed times and it may suit if your are self employed for example. high initial cost though. suited to indoor year round milking sytems. grazing can work but that bit more difficult if your working off farm.

i'd stick with the suckers if off farm job is ok though

we can all dream , i suppose it depends what the off farm job is , maybe it could fund a robot

John_F

irishh_bob wrote: »

robots are for countrys like the usa , holland etc where cows are inside all year round

think you neeed to broaden your mind there bob, seen farm with robots working with grazing, visits go down compared to indoor full time, but key is to keep the cow coming in to go onto fresh grass. moorepark have a fullwood merlin installed on a farm on a grass based system, farmers in the uk are doing it, most of them are buffer feeding which helps visits. dont think delaval and fullwood would be following lely to the irish market unless they thought it would work, alot of money goes into training service men on these machines.

@Farfield, instead of replying to your other thread (computer slow :rolleyes: ) i dont think oad would work on any cow when she comes into peak unless she peaks v v low....

F.D

farfield i seen both lely and delaval robots at the ploughing today, lely even had an example of the grazing system working on some farm here in ireland on display and i know they have some dealer down south advertising opendays at certain times of the year so, maybe if you got started with the old set up and were confident in the future of milk it could be something you could work towards rather than spending it straight away on a shiney new parlour you have to stand in for 20 years
look at all options before you spend any money, i think 49801 has a point about it been a bit more flexible

Farfield

Thankyou guys for the advice. Before i set all up i will visit our local lely robot centre which is right beside me and some of their sort of grazing focus type farms. It would suit me really well to keep the day job (which does pay very well) and maybe look at this alright, but i need a lot of convincing that it can work well with grazing.

John_F

done a quick search on bff there for robot

http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28788 is the big one but plenty more in the first link! some very interesting reading!

Tipp Man

Am not that impressed with robots personally although that is based purely on what i have been reading, not on any experience. The cost/output ratio seems all wrong to me.

Admittedly you don't have the committment and structure of always being there for morning and evening milking but it does seem that the guys with robots spend a hell of a lot of time tending to robot alarms and chasing after cows who haven't gone through the robot etc.

I'd also be worried about farmers becoming disconected from their cows - cows becoming wilder due to less human interaction and farmers not knowing there cows as well as they should.

It seems to me that you are subsituting 1 job for another - will stick to the herringbone myself

49801

i didn't really intend to divert the whole thread towards robots. just suggesting it does deserve due consideration in your situation. i know zero about dairying but i have found the threads on bff most interesting.
any system needs to be assessed on a cow, labour/lifestyle, financial point of view.
From what i have read i cant agree with robot farmers becoming disconnected with their cows. the comments on bff suggest that they get to spend more focused time with their cows... health, diet. not just pulling teats. fetching can be a problem but that is more of an indicator that you've got your recent management practices wrong. once a day should be sufficient. it is a different mindset of dairying to what people are used too. that doesnt mean its wrong... just different. alarms are an issue but often the alarms are non critical and it takes the farmer a while to get used to them.

jeff greene

:eek: There is an elephant right over there:eek:

Quota, processing rights, whatever name they'll call it. Have any of you prospective dairy farmers gone to who ever your coop is and asked about them?

pakalasa

I've seen a lot of robots working in factories. They nearly always work on a 'pick and place' basis, that is they pick up something and move it somewhere else. They are continously doing this. The robotic milkers dont work like this. The arm of the robot is basically doing nothing, just sitting there, while the cow is being milked. Surprising they dont have the robots just taking off and on the clusters. That way they could have a lot higher output.

bbam

OP it sounds like you have a reasonable set up that could be put back into action with a minimal spend equipment wise... Cows and quota would be a different story..

Still my biggest fear would be milk prices post 2015.

Earlier someone stated there was no money in beef, there is small money in beef, mainly because the factories control the price downwards based on supply quantities... Lots of cattle results in poor prices, few cattle results in higher prices..
IMHO milk will move the same way post the quotas.. during peak supply times milk prices could be slashed back to the production costs or less with the decent prices only being paid for out of season milk, penalties for bacteria/scc and the like will probably also increase..

John_F

pakalasa wrote: »

I've seen a lot of robots working in factories. They nearly always work on a 'pick and place' basis, that is they pick up something and move it somewhere else. They are continously doing this. The robotic milkers dont work like this. The arm of the robot is basically doing nothing, just sitting there, while the cow is being milked. Surprising they dont have the robots just taking off and on the clusters. That way they could have a lot higher output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKR6DNL2N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VETy6s8rAZs

robots have become part of most areas of production with a long time, trouble with cows is there cows and unpredictable haha. Some have one arm that works between two cows (GEA and galaxy)

ya agreee with tippman that it depends on the system, and you do need alot of milk to pay for it! dont agree with them being disconected from the cows though! i just find the behaviour of the cow part really interesting

spot on jeff, you have to at least buy some bit of quota to start off (unless you are a dept new entrant) and cant see this changing much post 2015

Humpty Dumpty

Just a note. In a new build situation robots are very competitive. I know the farmers that put them in. They wont take them out for love nor money.

cosatron

I don’t want to be tied to Cows 24/7; however I do want the best possible return from the farm.

If your not going to be committed to your cows 24/7, no matter what type of milk you produce, i.e summer milk or winter milk. you better forget about it. a farmer said to me a while ago about dairy, sure the cows don't know its christmas and how true. and as jeff greene has stated, its the worst possible time to go into milk until the quota issues are resolved in 2015.

JohnBoy

JohnBoy wrote: »

I can't see how part time dairying can work.

it's doable sure, but at what cost to yourself?

If you want a part time option then become as efficient as possible at the suckler game


Tipp Man's suggestion is quite good for a full-time job

Coming back to my point about part time dairying not being feasible, someone planted a seed recently and I've done some reading since into Once a Day milking.


lower volume/higher solids cows when milked once a day for a number of years can produce up to 90% of the milk produced on twice a day milking. They generally tend to have less fertility and foot issues and are consuming less meal. They are in many cases also producing more solids than on twice a day.

Adding everything up it can give at least as good, and if done perfectly right maybe even better margin than twice a day.


It's not a system that suits all farms, (racehorses are out for a start) but it is an interesting one. I'm still not sure you could work a forty hour week along with it, but it requires more studying I think.

Tipp Man

JohnBoy wrote: »

Coming back to my point about part time dairying not being feasible, someone planted a seed recently and I've done some reading since into Once a Day milking.


lower volume/higher solids cows when milked once a day for a number of years can produce up to 90% of the milk produced on twice a day milking. They generally tend to have less fertility and foot issues and are consuming less meal. They are in many cases also producing more solids than on twice a day.

Adding everything up it can give at least as good, and if done perfectly right maybe even better margin than twice a day.


It's not a system that suits all farms, (racehorses are out for a start) but it is an interesting one. I'm still not sure you could work a forty hour week along with it, but it requires more studying I think.

10% of dairy farmers in NZ are once a day i believe.

I think you would need a large Jersey influence in the cows or SCC would go through the roof - if rearing calves to cattle was to be part of the plan then the jersey influence wouldn't be desirable

JohnBoy

no, but I suppose if you're looking at some sort of part-time enterprise then doing one job would be enough without trying to rear calves too.


I wonder how would traditional british freisans cope with it? or is there such an animal anymore? are friesans all holstein to some degree or other?

5live

JohnBoy wrote: »

Coming back to my point about part time dairying not being feasible, someone planted a seed recently and I've done some reading since into Once a Day milking.


lower volume/higher solids cows when milked once a day for a number of years can produce up to 90% of the milk produced on twice a day milking. They generally tend to have less fertility and foot issues and are consuming less meal. They are in many cases also producing more solids than on twice a day.

Adding everything up it can give at least as good, and if done perfectly right maybe even better margin than twice a day.


It's not a system that suits all farms, (racehorses are out for a start) but it is an interesting one. I'm still not sure you could work a forty hour week along with it, but it requires more studying I think.

Tis all right, john boy. If you mention JERSEY, i'll back you up:D

pakalasa

John_F wrote: »

......robots have become part of most areas of production with a long time, trouble with cows is there cows and unpredictable haha. Some have one arm that works between two cows (GEA and galaxy)......

Yes, that's what I had in mind alright. Now, those robots are earning their keep.

F.D

just on the OAD milking, i just cant get my head around why you would hold more cows with less output, i know where your coming from with the milk solids but, would less cows with more breeding towards milk solids and twice a day milking still be more economical ?

Tipp Man

F.D wrote: »

just on the OAD milking, i just cant get my head around why you would hold more cows with less output, i know where your coming from with the milk solids but, would less cows with more breeding towards milk solids and twice a day milking still be more economical ?

I don't think there is any doubt that OAD will produce less milk but i suppose other factors come into play when considering it. Labour availability and lifestyle seem to me to be the main reasons for it

It would be fair cushy in the summer for the average irish farmer, in summer your day would be like - Up at 7, cows milked by 9, fert spread and topping done by 10, fences moved calves feed by 11, potter around yard till lunch. And then nothing to do in the afternoon.

I can imagine for a young family with wife working that it would be something to consider as the father could collect kids from school/creche and be with them for the afternoon

handy for young fellas as well who are fond of a bit of porter on a Saturday night - can stay in bed till dinner and then milk the cows, no harm done;)

jeff greene

Don't want to rehash the whole OAD thing but I'd hire in a lad to do it at the reported loss of production because I don't think the evening milking is the issue with part time dairy farming. I think its more the point of being around because most days there is little to do anyway, but on others, things can get busy, if cows are calving, animals sick, calves break out, milking machine break down etc.

JohnBoy

the interest I have in it is almost the exact scenario tipp man has suggested. except rather than the wife working she could be milking

Your day's work done in time to collect the kids from school and spend the evening with them.


Also I look at everything from a margin perspective, not a turnover one. and often times in a small business you earn very little extra margin on that final 10-20% of turnover.

I think this can be especially true when dealing with livestock. if you can achieve 80% of the output on 50% of the input costs then you can often be making as much, if not more money than going all out for 100% output.

yellow50HX

sorry to get back onto the orginal plot but dairyign is a lifestyle choice. my dad was in the excat same boat and got out and went into the sucklers, have tought about getting back into dairyign but i can handle sucklers and still have sundays to myself once they are checked. like my folks always said "dairy farmers are married to the cows"

just a few points i have been wondering about;
if your going milking again whose gonna milk them? you said your dad retired if so he cant milk them for you (would have to hand back the pension)

your current set up looks good as your wont need to build too much else other then probaly upgrade the parlour.

once a day milking proably give you lower volume but depends on what way you wanna sell you rmilk by voulme or by quality (these can balance out your cost per milking)

if your home farm can be used for the cows and the other place for sillage and dry stock great, but it'll stop you from expanding in a few years time.

dont dimiss the robot thing for irish conditons, saw an english guy who has a robot milking organic cows, no water in the fields so they have to come in to drink then go back out to the fields, i reckon this could be the way to do it for irish conditions as your not using meal to get them in. think about the cows would still be walkign that distance twice a day anyway for convential milking. if your going to stay working you'll need all the extra time you can get.

i know a few people that are thinking of getting back into cows but all are thinking of getting in someone to milk them which then uses up your profit.

keep going

to be honest if you are worried about work dont bother going milking.did the whole parttime milking thing and its only a runner if you intend to go fulltime eventually or have a good wife.at the end of the day it has to be in you,if you want to do it you will and the work wont bother you.that said you are in a very good position as regards facilities but could do with more of the land being around the parlour. security and prospects in your job come into it as well. so decide what you like doing and worry about money afterwards

keep going

F.D wrote: »

Have you still got the quota?
Are you prepared to milk all year round? (dont be fooled into this low cost summer milk that will leave dairy farms and creamerys shut down for the winter malarkey)
ah yes why make more money and invest less with less work.who in their right mind wants 2 months off milking and produce at a lower cost