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What's the state of Airsoft In Ireland From A Commercial Point Of View

  • 19-11-2011 1:40pm
    #1
    ricka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭


    We have had a spate of closures of retailers of late in Ireland....Eirsoft,Qas being two of the more prominent ones.
    Not surprising really, as many have said here before for the size of the market there's just too many retailers.
    However it has worried me the recent closure of HRTA and the Garda's attempt to close an Airsoft shop in Gorey.
    The attempted shop closure was as a result of the percieved necessity of a license.
    Thankfully the shop issue was sorted quite quickly but the lack of clear and enacted legislation led to an all to familiar complication.
    Most of you guys know we distribute to shops around the country and yes some are high street shops.I get asked every week about the legislation and what's going on,unfortunately I never have an answer.
    I currently operate from industrial units, as I expected the legislation to be enacted two years ago, but at present its perfectly legitimate for retailers to operate from the high street, whether we like it or not.
    I have also said before about the lack of clarity with regard to the import of overpowered rifles into Ireland and there subsequent downgrade.
    There is no provision for this in the legislation.So when we import rifles(I would say 80% of Rifles sold in Ireland would have been manufactured over 1 joule), we are importing illegal firearms.Crazy situation really!
    Yeah, some wont like me saying that but it needs to be addressed.
    The belief out there that all rifles are downgraded before entering Ireland is quite frankly bull****, and everyone in the industry knows it!
    As a retailer I have no clear idea where this business is going.Will they enact the legislation, wont they? Who knows!
    WhileI know and like the guys on the IAA, there has been little activity of late and I do feel as a retailer something has to be done.
    I think the retailers and site owners are going to have to come together and try to speak with one voice.Yep, that wont be easy but needs to be done.
    I dont think it would be any harm for people with a commercial interest in Airsoft having more of a say in what happens.We have a vested interest in puting our time into it.
    I don't know exactly what's happened with HRTA but when our oldest and one of the most respected sites in the country closes, it's worrying.
    Hopefully they'll be back open in the not to distant future.

    What I'm really trying to say from all the above is we have an industry here that's in limbo.IAA inactivity, planning issues, overpowered rifles,shop locations, inactive legislation, the list goes on.
    I personally think from my point of view the Industry's a mess!
    What do you think?

    PS It's been so bloody quiet around here lately...feel free to shout at me!Don't usually do that but what the hell, the forum could do with it!


«1

Comments

  • #2
    thermo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,439 ✭✭✭✭thermo


    hrta being closed is an ongoing case at the moment, it might be best not to speculate/ discuss in specifics until an outcome is reached or paul posts here to explain.


  • #3
    ricka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭ricka


    thermo wrote: »
    hrta being closed is an ongoing case at the moment, it might be best not to speculate/ discuss in specifics until an outcome is reached or paul posts here to explain.
    Fair point Lar,apologies.I've sniped the post


  • #4
    thermo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,439 ✭✭✭✭thermo


    ricka wrote: »
    Fair point Lar,apologies.I've sniped the post

    no bothers. thanks,


  • #5
    cdev
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭cdev


    ricka wrote: »
    We have had a spate of closures of retailers of late in Ireland....Eirsoft,Qas being two of the more prominent ones.
    Not surprising really, as many have said here before for the size of the market there's just too many retailers.
    However it has worried me the recent closure of HRTA and the Garda's attempt to close an Airsoft shop in Gorey.
    The attempted shop closure was as a result of the percieved necessity of a license.
    Thankfully the shop issue was sorted quite quickly but the lack of clear and enacted legislation led to an all to familiar complication.
    Most of you guys know we distribute to shops around the country and yes some are high street shops.I get asked every week about the legislation and what's going on,unfortunately I never have an answer.
    I currently operate from industrial units, as I expected the legislation to be enacted two years ago, but at present its perfectly legitimate for retailers to operate from the high street, whether we like it or not.
    I have also said before about the lack of clarity with regard to the import of overpowered rifles into Ireland and there subsequent downgrade.
    There is no provision for this in the legislation.So when we import rifles(I would say 80% of Rifles sold in Ireland would have been manufactured over 1 joule), we are importing illegal firearms.Crazy situation really!
    Yeah, some wont like me saying that but it needs to be addressed.
    The belief out there that all rifles are downgraded before entering Ireland is quite frankly bull****, and everyone in the industry knows it!
    As a retailer I have no clear idea where this business is going.Will they enact the legislation, wont they? Who knows!
    WhileI know and like the guys on the IAA, there has been little activity of late and I do feel as a retailer something has to be done.
    I think the retailers and site owners are going to have to come together and try to speak with one voice.Yep, that wont be easy but needs to be done.
    I dont think it would be any harm for people with a commercial interest in Airsoft having more of a say in what happens.We have a vested interest in puting our time into it.
    I don't know exactly what's happened with HRTA but when our oldest and one of the most respected sites in the country closes, it's worrying.
    Hopefully they'll be back open in the not to distant future.

    What I'm really trying to say from all the above is we have an industry here that's in limbo.IAA inactivity, planning issues, overpowered rifles,shop locations, inactive legislation, the list goes on.
    I personally think from my point of view the Industry's a mess!
    What do you think?

    PS It's been so bloody quiet around here lately...feel free to shout at me!Don't usually do that but what the hell, the forum could do with it!

    I'm just an airsoft player/customer so I don't have any deep insight into the industry. I think the issues you have raised above are very important.

    It seems like the current initiatives aimed at securing a review of the Firearms Act (as discussed here and here ) might benefit the Airsoft community to some degree.

    Would it be possible/worthwile for the retailers/sites to keep a copy of the petitions onsite for customers to sign?

    I know it's hardly a silver bullet - but perhaps if the Airsoft retailers had some kind of input into a renewed Firearms Consultation Panel the problems you outlined above could be addressed.

    Have you considered talking to anyone in the wider Shooting trade with a few to joining any retailers association they might have?

    Apologies in advance if I'm way off the mark with any of this. I'd just hate to see the sport damaged because the grey areas and black holes you discussed aren't sorted out.


  • #6
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    This is the market adjusting itself. There's room for maybe 4 or 5 retailers in Ireland, and there are what, 13 at last count? 11 now :-)

    The IAA succeeded in doing what it set out to do, which was legitimise Airsoft in Ireland. I think it petered out after that mainly due to lack of a mandate it could carry out with the resources it had, and a concerted effort to destroy it, from inside and out. People ask me if I'm annoyed my work went to waste -- it didn't, we did what we meant to do.

    There's been talk of a chamber of commerce/retailer rep body for years - it was mainly by people whose businesses were in trouble, or Derek Talbot flapping his jaws as usual.

    As for the license thing, welcome to the jurisdiction of the Garda Síochána, the most secretive police force in europe. If a local super decides they don't like you, that's the end of that. Not in any way airsoft-specific.


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  • #7
    goblin59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭goblin59


    if airsoft shops got a license for importing actual firearms and treated all imported airsoft RIF's as real firearms until they have chrono'd RIF's
    would that stop any issues the gardai have?


  • #8
    horgan_p
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    as the bishop said to the nun "apologies in advance about the length"






    as regards the amount of retailers I agree with Dave , this is the market correcting itself.from 2008 - 2010 you had every numpty who got redundancy money or any type of lump sum opening an airsoft site / shop thinking it was the surest and fastest way to make millions ever. now that people have a bit (lot) less money to spend they are going to be more selective where and how they spend it.
    Time was that shiva would anounce what he had coming in during the week on a saturday and it’d be presold by the monday.

    Those days are long over I’m afraid. I’d see more people getting into the “collecting” side of things , i.e. buying stuff relevant to a period or country (i.e. soviet cold war stuff) as opposed to what was happening where people were just buying whatever was deemed to be L33T that particular week. Look at the adverts section , the amount of stuff I see for sale there that could only have been impulse buys is enormous.

    Ditto with sites , where before a land owner only had to open the gate and stand there with a biscuit box for the money now players are expecting something for their money.and rightly so. Players arent willing to waste a day putting up with hicaps and overalls if that isnt what they’re into themselves. Players are now demanding something for their money which is only fair - the site is selling an experience and if they arent delivering on it then people will vote with their feet.
    Where I would see things winding up is with far less retailers and in most cases a retailer partnering up with a site to benefit both parties (as what myself and puding did in cork) its a mutually beneficial arrangement where players could come and play and order new gear.The ability to just collect their aegs or whatever on the day and then head out to play was very well received , as was the onsite workshop chris had going.

    Its a model used by most places in the UK and with good reason - it works.

    As regards the IAA my views are well known around these parts , but the level of apathy towards the organisation at the moment is killing it. It seems that when people are running around saying “ZOMG the man is going to ban us” the IAA is the first place they look for help and advice. When everthing is hunky dorey they couldnt give a s**te. They are due to announce an AGM soon and look for volunteers for the guillotine I mean committee. It’ll be a case of the same old 4 or 5 putting themselves up for election.

    Possibly a smart move would be for airsofters as a group to try and align themselves with the re-enactors around the country as we do have a lot more in common than either group prehaps would like to admit.


  • #9
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    goblin59 wrote: »
    if airsoft shops got a license for importing actual firearms and treated all imported airsoft RIF's as real firearms until they have chrono'd RIF's
    would that stop any issues the gardai have?

    It is impossible to license possession of an overpowered RiF under the current legislation.


  • #10
    goblin59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭goblin59


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    It is impossible to license possession of an overpowered RiF under the current legislation.

    even for a shop in regards to importation prior to downgrading for retail purposes?

    I didnt mean a license for selling Rifs that are over the joule, just the actual importation for a shop so they can ship them prior to being downgraded to under the joule.


  • #11
    ricka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭ricka


    Shouldn't have posted the bit about retailers closing due to lack of business.Not really relevant to what I'm trying to say.
    The issue of site closures has not always been and is presently not down to a lack of business.There's a lack of clarity with what you can and cannot do.Your there at the whim of the council or local police.
    I agree closures because of lack of profit are understandable but that's not really my point.
    The issue of the IAA hopefully will be rectified but Dave's right about the chamber of commerce being touted for many a year.It probably wont happen but I might talk to a few of the guys again and see how they feel.
    Derek Talbot no longer runs MIA, he's now running a different part of the business completely, so I'm not geting my lead from there:)


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  • #12
    horgan_p
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,608 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    goblin59 wrote: »
    even for a shop in regards to importation prior to downgrading for retail purposes?

    I didnt mean a license for selling Rifs that are over the joule, just the actual importation for a shop so they can ship them prior to being downgraded to under the joule.


    Without serial numbers it'd be impossible to police.there'd be no traceability -in other words no forms or paperwork (2 things the gardai / government love).

    you'd never be able to prove where anything came from.


  • #13
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,638 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    goblin59 wrote: »
    if airsoft shops got a license for importing actual firearms and treated all imported airsoft RIF's as real firearms until they have chrono'd RIF's
    would that stop any issues the gardai have?

    Only registered firearms dealers can import firearms and I'd highly doubt airsoft retailers would be willing to meet the security standards necessary to become a RFD. Then there's the serial number issue outlined above.


  • #14
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    ricka wrote: »
    Shouldn't have posted the bit about retailers closing due to lack of business.Not really relevant to what I'm trying to say.
    The issue of site closures has not always been and is presently not down to a lack of business.There's a lack of clarity with what you can and cannot do.Your there at the whim of the council or local police.
    I agree closures because of lack of profit are understandable but that's not really my point.
    The issue of the IAA hopefully will be rectified but Dave's right about the chamber of commerce being touted for many a year.It probably wont happen but I might talk to a few of the guys again and see how they feel.
    Derek Talbot no longer runs MIA, he's now running a different part of the business completely, so I'm not geting my lead from there:)

    There was like 8 events on throughout different sites over halloween, we got a pretty good turn out but from what I hear a lot of the events didn't go so well because of a lack of players.

    This is because there were to many events on at the same time, if sites could collaborate on events we could ensure all site events have a good turnout. All we have to do is work together.

    Add to that all the false rumours and back biting from everyone, the unwarranted bad blood between many of us e.t.c. We are basically just not in a great position to make things better yet. Every site and retailer basically stand alone bar one or two.

    We have a great relationship with most retailers and I can't complain business wise but we do have the odd slow day and it could defiinitely be better.


  • #15
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Dave said it best, its just the market adjusting itself.

    I remember having lunch with the guys from Eirsoft when we were in the boom and the tone was very much " enjoy it lads, it wont last forever".

    Airsoft is a volatile industry, and through a stage it seemed anyone who had a bit of cash decided to lump it into airsoft to make a quick buck, with no real planning, business knowledge or long term strategy.

    I'm pretty sure you can go search for posts from me where I've outlined the last two years that it will eventually just implode and the guys in for a quick buck will be gone. And the guys who planned and played it smart, will still be here.

    I dont think a chamber of commerce can sort things out. From looking at other industries where this operates in similar sports, markets, it seems to stiffle innovation and growth and brings everything to a complacent level.

    Airsoft reloaded could do something outlandish that pulls tons of business, and then at the next chamber of commerce meeting, everyone is having a whinge that theirplayers got pulled away.

    Ricka there could get exclusivity on the best AEG n town, and then his fellow retailers give out about loosing business, it just stiffles growth.

    In my opinion you need to plan, know how to run a business, and most importantly plan for the worse alongside being innovative to keep players coming back week in week out.

    I won't go as far as saying I could do better, but I could say that very quickly when new sites pop up, or new stores open, you can tell quickly if they will last or sink.

    Here is a bitching little quote my CEO gave at a recent staff meeting.
    Recessions trim fat...those who got greedy in recent times are shedding the weight,staff, profits, innovation. Those that were in shape and fit, are just continuing to work out and doing business.

    Guys, we are Schwarzenegger in his prime, but we have to keep working out

    It pretty much summed up recessions, Ireland and the simple truth in one statement, and it was brilliant.


  • #16
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    TheDoc wrote: »
    I dont think a chamber of commerce can sort things out. From looking at other industries where this operates in similar sports, markets, it seems to stiffle innovation and growth and brings everything to a complacent level.

    Ukara seems to work very well across the puddle though, correct me if I'm wrong but is Ukara not a commercial rep group?
    TheDoc wrote: »
    Airsoft reloaded could do something outlandish that pulls tons of business, and then at the next chamber of commerce meeting, everyone is having a whinge that theirplayers got pulled away.

    Sure we have adds on setanta sports, adds starting soon on Q102, Nova and we are in the middle of discussing several stalls in many tesco locations. we all need to stop worrying about what people will think and advertise, advertise, advertise.

    Airsoft is maturing though, I've gone mid cap only (as have nearly all of our regulars, most of our games are single fire only and we do an inhouse milsim to accomadate the change in attitude from most of our regulars.

    If you don't roll with the times the times roll over you.


  • #17
    Arkslippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭Arkslippy


    There has been a rash of "me too" woodland venues and that's not healthy when there is a limited pool of players to pull from, with schools back and winter coming in id say Hrta won't be the last to close of the outdoor type.

    if i was running an outdoor id be praying for the current weather to continue.

    what Brian said on too many copycat events doesn't help either.


  • #18
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Airsoft Reloded wrote: »
    Ukara seems to work very well across the puddle though, correct me if I'm wrong but is Ukara not a commercial rep group?

    I'm not so sure that UKARA is oriented towards being a chamber of commerce, and more a political representative group.


  • #19
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Lemming wrote: »
    I'm not so sure that UKARA is oriented towards being a chamber of commerce, and more a political representative group.

    You'd know better than me on this subject for sure but is Ukara not the group that represent the retailers and sites of England and is not geared towards the commercial side of things?


  • #20
    fayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭fayer


    Il keep this short.

    The IAA operated in 2 phases,

    1 keep Airsoft legal, and secure that situation. DONE

    2 Move onto promotion and development of the sport. FAILED because it wasted all its time sorting out internal bull**** created by muppets.

    Yes the comercial entities need a representative body - They nearly had one till paranoid idiots scuppered it.

    Yes I believe the players still need an IAA, the sport is nothing with players, ultimately they should be the national governing body, with a subordinative partnership with a commercial rep body. (Checks and balances)

    Steve


  • #21
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Airsoft Reloded wrote: »
    You'd know better than me on this subject for sure but is Ukara not the group that represent the retailers and sites of England and is not geared towards the commercial side of things?

    It is the same group, yes. Could just be perception that much of the work they have done to date (or rather been visible in doing) has been more on the legislative front, e.g. government consultation/lobbying regards the VCRA.

    Truth be told I don't know just how much they do or what their full remit is (since I'm not a retailer or a site operator), but that's just the impression I've always had.


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  • #22
    Puding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    A complicated issue that tbh can never be covered in a forum post in full but will throw out a few points as I see them from seeing the industry from both sides. You can agree or disagree with them.



    Misinformation

    Its time for a reality check, as a community and industry we have had a tenancy to 'talk yourselves up' as it where with clames of warehouses with thousands of units of stock and vast player bases. The reality is that that is is just bull ****, sites and retailers have for a long time played keeping up with neighter with each other, no one wanted to show weakness and clams just getting bigger and bigger, and everyone started to either believe the clames or repeat them as it facilitated their interest be it the retailers, sites , player, IAA ( all of use tbh ).

    The problem with this is that people have started to believe the bluff, and it has created a false impression for people. People have believed the hype and have gone into business based on this exaggerated figures. The most research a lot of retailers have done is a quick google search or a straw poll at their local site.

    The brutal reality is that there is not enough trade to support the number of shops we have, the industry and turn over people believe is out their just does not exist and those 20 players on your local site although they talk a lot, are not going to provide a small shop with a strong weekly turn over to keep you afloat.

    - industry and community based on mis information and bluff creating a false impression
    - people seeing airsoft as a quick way to make money based on this misinformation and bluff
    - reality check, we are not as big as we think
    - people use boards for research for a business, wakeup people this is a small vocal majority
    - an inability to act professional, you may not like each other but most business can at least act professionally towards each other, the airsoft industry is immature tbh just a reflection of the community
    - for the size of the community in ireland we do not need that many sites and shops in ireland, how many in dublin for the population? everyone seems to wants a shop or site in walking distance!



    Own worst enemy

    Example: 'Shop closed because garda had wrong information on licence'

    reality is that the retailer/site from the information available is that the local superintendent seems to never have been contacted before the shop for set up.

    Who is to blame? both the retailers/site for not getting in contact and the local super for not having the correct information.

    We have a tendency to blame everyone else but ourselves, sometimes we have to take responsibility. IT is not our god given right to play airsoft, we are doing the strange hobby, WE have to take the initiative and not just say 'it will be grand'


    Just a few random points for now, will post up some more later on, need to make some dinner.


  • #23
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Lemming wrote: »
    It is the same group, yes. Could just be perception that much of the work they have done to date (or rather been visible in doing) has been more on the legislative front, e.g. government consultation/lobbying regards the VCRA.

    Truth be told I don't know just how much they do or what their full remit is (since I'm not a retailer or a site operator), but that's just the impression I've always had.

    Ah right, sound enough so. Thanks for the info boss ;)

    Well said Puding.


  • #24
    ricka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭ricka


    Puding wrote: »
    Misinformation

    Its time for a reality check, as a community and industry we have had a tenancy to 'talk yourselves up' as it where with clames of warehouses with thousands of units of stock and vast player bases. The reality is that that is is just bull ****, sites and retailers have for a long time played keeping up with neighter with each other, no one wanted to show weakness and clams just getting bigger and bigger, and everyone started to either believe the clames or repeat them as it facilitated their interest be it the retailers, sites , player, IAA ( all of use tbh ).

    The problem with this is that people have started to believe the bluff, and it has created a false impression for people. People have believed the hype and have gone into business based on this exaggerated figures. The most research a lot of retailers have done is a quick google search or a straw poll at their local site.

    The brutal reality is that there is not enough trade to support the number of shops we have, the industry and turn over people believe is out their just does not exist and those 20 players on your local site although they talk a lot, are not going to provide a small shop with a strong weekly turn over to keep you afloat.

    - industry and community based on mis information and bluff creating a false impression
    - people seeing airsoft as a quick way to make money based on this misinformation and bluff
    - reality check, we are not as big as we think
    - people use boards for research for a business, wakeup people this is a small vocal majority
    - an inability to act professional, you may not like each other but most business can at least act professionally towards each other, the airsoft industry is immature tbh just a reflection of the community
    - for the size of the community in ireland we do not need that many sites and shops in ireland, how many in dublin for the population? everyone seems to wants a shop or site in walking distance!
    The vast majority of retailers I've seen set up have not been told anything about the industry by anyone involved.They had there minds made up after going skirmishing for a couple of weeks.They've done no research.Most were simply players who were either out of work or had a redundancy payment come through.
    The idea that retailers are talking the business up, to be honest I fail to see.
    I consistently tell people that my wifes a sales rep and is the main bread winner in our house.
    I do have over a hundred thousand in stock.
    I did turn over just under 1 million euro in the last calender year and YES the business does make **** all really!!!!
    There's no great pot of gold in Airsoft.I dont know a single retailer who says otherwise.
    A site claiming a large player base again seems pretty pointless to me as I hear every week from players telling me how many were on sites.How can you bull**** on this! Players are there and can see the numbers.Everyone on this forum knows who the busy sites are and the ones that aren't.
    I haven't had a single site owner ever tell me they make loads of money, in fact quite the contrary.

    Anyway I would pretty much agree with everything else you said.
    There probably are too many shops and sites.
    Without doubt there is a lack of professionalism by all of us in the industry and I think after a couple of hours thinking about it, the chances of a chamber of commerce working with all the bickering and infighting would be practically impossible.

    What you said with regards to shops opening without going to the authorities, you're right and to be honest I've been guilty of that myself.I was ordered to close down our Rathcoole shop after we opened after I had failed to inform them my intentions.
    I guess the industry is and has been going through a changing of the guard.
    In fact I think thats being happening on this forum too


  • #25
    Puding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    The vast majority of retailers I've seen set up have not been told anything about the industry by anyone involved.They had there minds made up after going skirmishing for a couple of weeks.They've done no research.Most were simply players who were either out of work or had a redundancy payment come through.
    The idea that retailers are talking the business up, to be honest I fail to see.
    I consistently tell people that my wifes a sales rep and is the main bread winner in our house.
    I do have over a hundred thousand in stock.
    I did turn over just under 1 million euro in the last calender year and YES the business does make **** all really!!!!
    There's no great pot of gold in Airsoft.I dont know a single retailer who says otherwise.
    A site claiming a large player base again seems pretty pointless to me as I hear every week from players telling me how many were on sites.How can you bull**** on this! Players are there and can see the numbers.Everyone on this forum knows who the busy sites are and the ones that aren't.
    I haven't had a single site owner ever tell me they make loads of money, in fact quite the contrary.



    the reality is your business model is very very differant to the vast majority of shops in ireland ( actually i would say all of them)

    you're in partnership with with cybergun and tbh from what you post you seem to pretty much sell what you are sent a lot of the time, i would imagine a large amount of your sales are to people that have nothing to do with regular skirmishing and I would put money on you having a wholesale element selling to smaller shops and gadget shops in the republic

    there is a lot of talking up business tbh i'm not going to go into details as that is just dragging up mud and will be counter productive if you want to talk about it i can gladly go to pm or talk to you on the phone at some point,


  • #26
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Yeah.... It would be hard to continue if you didn't love it alright. there is definitely no river of gold anywhere to be seen but you meet a lot of great people, you get to enjoy your job (Really enjoy your job), you make a few bob and you provide a service to a few people who require it.

    Not that bad really, cheer up Ritchie. Your normally so full of sunshine.
    ricka wrote: »
    The vast majority of retailers I've seen set up have not been told anything about the industry by anyone involved.They had there minds made up after going skirmishing for a couple of weeks.They've done no research.Most were simply players who were either out of work or had a redundancy payment come through.
    The idea that retailers are talking the business up, to be honest I fail to see.
    I consistently tell people that my wifes a sales rep and is the main bread winner in our house.
    I do have over a hundred thousand in stock.
    I did turn over just under 1 million euro in the last calender year and YES the business does make **** all really!!!!
    There's no great pot of gold in Airsoft.I dont know a single retailer who says otherwise.
    A site claiming a large player base again seems pretty pointless to me as I hear every week from players telling me how many were on sites.How can you bull**** on this! Players are there and can see the numbers.Everyone on this forum knows who the busy sites are and the ones that aren't.
    I haven't had a single site owner ever tell me they make loads of money, in fact quite the contrary.

    Anyway I would pretty much agree with everything else you said.
    There probably are too many shops and sites.
    Without doubt there is a lack of professionalism by all of us in the industry and I think after a couple of hours thinking about it, the chances of a chamber of commerce working with all the bickering and infighting would be practically impossible.

    What you said with regards to shops opening without going to the authorities, you're right and to be honest I've been guilty of that myself.I was ordered to close down our Rathcoole shop after we opened after I had failed to inform them my intentions.
    I guess the industry is and has been going through a changing of the guard.
    In fact I think thats being happening on this forum too


  • #27
    ricka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭ricka


    Puding wrote: »
    the reality is your business model is very very differant to the vast majority of shops in ireland ( actually i would say all of them)

    you're in partnership with with cybergun and tbh from what you post you seem to pretty much sell what you are sent a lot of the time, i would imagine a large amount of your sales are to people that have nothing to do with regular skirmishing and I would put money on you having a wholesale element selling to smaller shops and gadget shops in the republic

    there is a lot of talking up business tbh i'm not going to go into details as that is just dragging up mud and will be counter productive if you want to talk about it i can gladly go to pm or talk to you on the phone at some point,
    Fair enough, probably better left unsaid
    Airsoft Reloded wrote: »
    Yeah.... It would be hard to continue if you didn't love it alright. there is definitely no river of gold anywhere to be seen but you meet a lot of great people, you get to enjoy your job (Really enjoy your job), you make a few bob and you provide a service to a few people who require it.

    Not that bad really, cheer up Ritchie. Your normally so full of sunshine.

    lol, yeah just was a bit fed up when I posted that.
    I've been looking around to relocate inside the M50 for the last month or two.Had 2 good units pass me by, as both landlords were unwilling to sign short term leases.Also both units had issues that may have led me to being refused a license.I dont feel I can commit to any thing long term untill the legislation is enacted and I have my license.Its just frustrating when you want to move the business on.
    It seems to me that the site owners are in the same position.Not really sure exactly who you should be talking to before you set up and nobody in authority really knowing what to do.
    Guess for the moment I'll just have to get on with and see what happens, that's all I can do!


  • #28
    J.D.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭J.D.R


    Just curious, why don't you break the legislative body of airsoft (ie, the IAA) into 2 separate bodies? One representing the players, and another the sites/retailer?

    Surely that would be a better method of representation as each group have different, but not mutually exclusive, aims in term of airsofts development in Ireland.

    In other words, shops want new legislation to allow them to set up/expand/import more freely/clearly, while players want to be able to buy a broader range of guns without the customs hassle.

    Sites want to set up without the Irish Gustapo having the last say, while more players might like a regulated system of knowing if a site is legitimate, and if it'l;l be there in a fortnights time.

    I have no experience with the IAA so I may be completely wrong here, but it seems to me having two separate specialised bodies liaising independently with each other would serve better than one be all and end all representative?


  • #29
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    ricka wrote: »
    lol, yeah just was a bit fed up when I posted that. I've been looking around to relocate inside the M50 for the last month or two.Had 2 good units pass me by, as both landlords were unwilling to sign short term leases.Also both units had issues that may have led me to being refused a license.I dont feel I can commit to any thing long term untill the legislation is enacted and I have my license.Its just frustrating when you want to move the business on.

    It seems to me that the site owners are in the same position.Not really sure exactly who you should be talking to before you set up and nobody in authority really knowing what to do.
    Guess for the moment I'll just have to get on with and see what happens, that's all I can do!

    I hear you, I've had days like that too. A 4 year rolling lease with a yearly break out clause is what we normally go for, most landlords are alright with that. A few of them don't like the idea of thier land being used for airsoft related business' but I've noticed lately that they don't really mind anymore.

    I go on the assumption that as long as we follow the laws that are here we will be ok, there is nothing else you can do really. I'm not realy afraid of it being banned though so that probably helps me sleep at night.


  • #30
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    J.D.R wrote: »
    but it seems to me having two separate specialised bodies liaising independently with each other would serve better than one be all and end all representative?

    :O

    May I ask for some bullet points as to how that is in anyway shape or form a positive move?

    There is no reason the IAA can't do both, the problem is resources. There are not enough volunteers to cover everything.

    I'm not aware of any "sport" where there is a governing body for the players and a separate one for those with commercial interests.


    It adds another barrier to communication, resolution and effectively puts two separate organisations out with a viewpoint of two different directions.

    Don't see how that is beneficial to anyone.

    And in reality I dont see why there is this mad push for some organisation to represent sites and commercial entities. Represent against what exactly?

    I can count on one hand nowadays the commercial entities that knock about the place. Organise an evening over pints or coffee and thrash out your issues, write them down, present to IAA. If they arnt doing it properly, then go through the channels and get effective people their to deal with your issues.

    I'm seeing all the talk and chatter about someone representing commercial bodies, I hear it on sites etc etc etc. But what do you want to be represented for?

    Do you want an entity there to help you out with issues that arise with customs and police?

    or

    Do you want an entity where you can huddle in and draw up a plan about how best to share the wealth and make a few quid with everyone on board?

    Maybe the IAA have gone really downhill, or maybe there is something I'm missing. But I know from the time I spent working in the business there wasn't any benefits I saw from a proposed " commercial body" other then a forum for poorly run sites and organisation to get ideas and business plans, or have a moan at the unfair advantage others had : /


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  • #31
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    ricka wrote: »
    The vast majority of retailers I've seen set up have not been told anything about the industry by anyone involved.They had there minds made up after going skirmishing for a couple of weeks.They've done no research.Most were simply players who were either out of work or had a redundancy payment come through.

    I've said it to a good few people, if I got a million quid tomorrow, the last place I'd invest it in airsoft. The vast majority of those who setup shop had no idea what they were doing or getting themselves into. Zero business experience, no research, basically everything you said.

    This has a negative impact in that the market nationally, looks a joke and is not taken seriously. And that's reflective in the amount of unjust or incorrect hassle sites and retailers can sometimes receive.

    Personally I can't see myself buying another rifle or pistol, or even accessories within Ireland, and I haven't for a long time. For me it is very simple why.
    • Cheaper abroad
    • Unlimited choice
    • Better brands
    • Plentiful stock
    • Obscure unique items

    I've heard all the talk of the flip side of the above, but I'm still not convinced. My most recent pistol purchase was a KJWorks 1911 that came to me, after customs and VAT got it, at just €102.

    I sympathise with retailers and sites who are struggling, I do. But for as much as you can point the finger at customs, the guards, the IAA, the lack of representation, are you sure your doing ALL you can?

    I don't see many shops enticing me to buy something on a whim , and I don't see sites enticing me to visit them when I'm not a normal visitor.

    So either yous are all fine and its just an out loud cry, or maybe commercial entities could crunch some numbers and see if maybe there is some deals that can be done, special offers and some marketing.

    I know cost price on items has shifted a little bit, but unless I'm drastically way off the mark ( which I doubt I am) I dont see a retailer not being able to sell a high end rifle with a half price pistol, and still make a good profit from it.

    And if you can't, you need to look into your supply chain, cause your doing it wrong.


  • #32
    Typhon
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭Typhon


    Hey guys, sorry for slightly jacking here but did AWOL (QAS / TNT) close down now also? :eek:


  • #33
    Leftyflip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,463 ✭✭✭Leftyflip


    Typhon wrote: »
    Hey guys, sorry for slightly jacking here but did AWOL (QAS / TNT) close down now also? :eek:

    Gone since the middle of September...


  • #34
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    TheDoc wrote: »
    I don't see many shops enticing me to buy something on a whim , and I don't see sites enticing me to visit them when I'm not a normal visitor.

    So either yous are all fine and its just an out loud cry, or maybe commercial entities could crunch some numbers and see if maybe there is some deals that can be done, special offers and some marketing.

    How would a site entise yourself to visit Doc? We have start doing inhouse (member only) milsims to accomadate those that like the slow stealthy play but how would you get the likes of yourself to try it?

    I think to many sites pool from the same group of people because we survive on rentals outside our normal opening hours and the numbers there hasn't changed in the last few years (That's not to say that we are loaded because we are far from it) but I have noticed a drop in airsofters in the last while.
    TheDoc wrote: »
    I know cost price on items has shifted a little bit, but unless I'm drastically way off the mark ( which I doubt I am) I dont see a retailer not being able to sell a high end rifle with a half price pistol, and still make a good profit from it.

    In defence of Irish retailers the running costs of a retail outlet can be extremely high when you count rates, rent, bills and staff. If you are to nice price wise you close.

    There is a great mark up on the euipment but once you take everything else away from it your not looking at a lot of money.


  • #35
    hightower1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭hightower1


    I think licensing is the way to go with Irish airsoft. Sure we cant license the rifs but we can license the player.

    Co operation between the IAA and the Gardai would be paramount were every station in the country would need to have a short briefing on airsoft, the IAA would need to have official garda seals added to the site and documentation and all IAA membershop cards would need the IAA seal with the same from the gardai. Legislation would need to be actually enatcted i.e retailers would need to be issued licenses to import / sell comercially (which is in current law but not enforced), on purchasing RIFs you should need an IAA license. This would also allow you to own any airsoft gun and would have to be presented when purchasing in store.

    This would all cost money to do so a fair yearly charge for the license would be needed, say 50eur? This would partly fund the IAA. Retailers licenses would also have to be paid for and again go twords the IAAs ongoing costs.

    The benfits of this system would majorly cut down the amount of yobbos selling cheap airsoft items, cut down the amount of muppets buying them in turn, solidify airsoft in Ireland as being a more recognized sport / past time, be a better point of contact for players / retailers and provide a string back bone for Irish airsoft. To date from my personal experience boards.ie has been my backbone for airsoft since I got into it but if we could shift that focus to a properly consolidated and accredited (with the gardai) organization and or relationship with the IAA airsoft would really be set up for growth in this country.


  • #36
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    hightower1 wrote: »
    I think licensing is the way to go with Irish airsoft. Sure we cant license the rifs but we can license the player.

    Co operation between the IAA and the Gardai would be paramount were every station in the country would need to have a short briefing on airsoft, the IAA would need to have official garda seals added to the site and documentation and all IAA membershop cards would need the IAA seal with the same from the gardai. Legislation would need to be actually enatcted i.e retailers would need to be issued licenses to import / sell comercially (which is in current law but not enforced), on purchasing RIFs you should need an IAA license. This would also allow you to own any airsoft gun and would have to be presented when purchasing in store.

    This would all cost money to do so a fair yearly charge for the license would be needed, say 50eur? This would partly fund the IAA. Retailers licenses would also have to be paid for and again go twords the IAAs ongoing costs.

    The benfits of this system would majorly cut down the amount of yobbos selling cheap airsoft items, cut down the amount of muppets buying them in turn, solidify airsoft in Ireland as being a more recognized sport / past time, be a better point of contact for players / retailers and provide a string back bone for Irish airsoft. To date from my personal experience boards.ie has been my backbone for airsoft since I got into it but if we could shift that focus to a properly consolidated and accredited (with the gardai) organization and or relationship with the IAA airsoft would really be set up for growth in this country.

    There was legislation signed into law two years ago to license RIF retailers (of which there are about a dozen in the country). It hasn't been implemented yet. This should give you an idea of how much time the DoJ/Gardai have for airsoft, both practically and figuratively.

    You can license players all you like, but they'll just buy stuff for non-licensees, and the RIF are untraceable. This is widespread in the UK with the UKARA system. Unless you can actually hope to enforce it, it's just red tape achieving nothing.


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  • #37
    sliabh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭sliabh


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    You can license players all you like, but they'll just buy stuff for non-licensees, and the RIF are untraceable. This is widespread in the UK with the UKARA system. Unless you can actually hope to enforce it, it's just red tape achieving nothing.

    It will also raise the bar to entering the sport, and reduce the amount of money coming from "casual" players. And for sites and retailers to survive (even though we have too many doing a poor job, rather than a few doing a good one) more money is needed.


  • #38
    bullets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    hightower1 wrote: »
    I think licensing is the way to go with Irish airsoft. Sure we cant license the rifs but we can license the player.

    This would all cost money to do so a fair yearly charge for the license would be needed, say 50eur? This would partly fund the IAA. Retailers licenses would also have to be paid for and again go twords the IAAs ongoing costs.

    People that Shoot/firearms owners would LOVE this! License the Person and not the Gun!!! But nope they pay 80 Euros every 3 years for each and every gun they own with the serial number on each licence.

    I really cant see Airsoft being able to get a licence for the person allowing them to buy multiple airsoft guns. (If its not been done for real-steel its pretty unlikely not to be done for either paintball or airsoft)
    (Interesting that theres a tick box for paintball gun/marker when filling in a firearms licence application form! though :-) )

    (Some shooters bitch about the price of a firearms licence being 80 Euros for 3 years so I'm guessing a lot of people could bitch about paying 50 Euros per year for an airsoft licence if one existed. Personally I would not mind)

    I've no interest in the sporting element of Airsoft but mainly in the hobby end of things. The Likes of UKARA in england scares me, I dont want to be
    forced to skirmish if I dont want to, or to buy a dayglow gun if I'm not a member of an skirmishing venue. When people use the term "Sport" to describe airsoft, its one of the few sports where people would buy the sporting equipment not necessarily to play the sport.
    If I was to guess (without having facts to back up my opinion) I would say most of the guns bought from airsoft shops in Ireland are not used for the sporting end of airsoft with actual skirmishers making up the lesser part of sales)

    I initially had wanted to Collect De-activated Real Guns.
    This meant needing to get a letter of permission from a Local Superintendant as well as other things. With experience of the local Gardai's lack of knowledge on all things guns and their attitude towards them, I felt
    it would be an up-hill battle to have a large collection.

    When I discovered Airsoft it suited me specifically because you did not
    need to have any interaction with the Gardai to justify why you wanted to
    purchase something (or lots of somethings) that looked like a real gun.

    You did not need a licence, you did not need to pay for anything other than the gun, you did not have to have any dealings with the gardai or anyone else.

    If such a licence existed for Airsoft I would happily pay for one.
    But you'd end up facing a lot of the same frustrations that firearms owners
    and people who collect de-activated guns face.

    ~B


  • #39
    ricka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭ricka


    The skirmishers market in Ireland is irrelevent to a retailers survival.
    If you dont cater for plinkers you cannot survive.
    Only 20% of our business is to gamers and sites.
    Bored 30+ Dad's, kids with their Mums, that's where the business is.The guns they buy, might be used 3 or 4 times, then thrown in a corner.
    Airsoft guns are a toy and in general no different from any other toy, disgaurded after a couple of weeks.
    All the big retailers recognise this and chase that business.Some may not like it but that's how it is.
    QAS are a good example of what happens if you try to survive by catering for the Airsoft community alone

    If an individual license element comes into play then most, if not all of the retailers would be gone.I understand from your point of view...so what? and I wouldn't argue with that, but obiviously I'd prefer if that didn't happen


  • #40
    gerrowadat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    bullets wrote: »
    (Interesting that theres a tick box for paintball gun/marker when filling in a firearms licence application form! though :-) )

    A paintball marker is a firearm under irish law as it shoots over a joule.


  • #41
    bullets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    A paintball marker is a firearm under irish law as it shoots over a joule.

    yes but no serial number so faces the same issue as an over the limit airsoft gun if ya actually are mad enough to try and licence it. (apart from getting your engraving tool out and making up a number) With the Markers always thought paintballers just needed a letter of permission from their local Super.

    (I'd love a paintball marker just to have to plink with but I reckon I'd have a hard time trying to justify needing one if I dont even play paint ball)

    I Never thought of what Ricka mentioned the way bringing in any form
    of licensing to airsoft for individuals would negatively affect retailers.

    ~B


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  • #42
    Inari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭Inari


    ricka wrote: »
    I understand from your point of view...so what? and I wouldn't argue with that, but obiviously I'd prefer if that didn't happen

    There is a very specific reason I would argue that. Two words; importation ban. As part of the European directive to remove guns and gun-shaped items from the postal service, the Irish government introduced legislation that says it is illegal to personally import gear, that you need to go through a licensed importer. If you make it so that retailers cannot survive, then how do you buy that nice looking shooty-stick on E-HobbyAsia? And that for me is the crux of the issue.

    With regard to supporting Irish retailers...it's all about knowing where to shop. I have bought Irish, and I have bought abroad. I will continue to do so. Like you, skirmishers, I know where to go for what items I need. I know that very few Irish retailers, if any, will carry an NPAS kit suitable for a KWA/Umarex H&K MK23 NS2 GBB, so online/abroad it is. On items available domestically I am happy to pay a little bit extra in-store if it keeps the Irish airsoft retailers in business, because guess what, I like to pick things up and try before I buy. That MK23 I mentioned? I would not have bought that if I had held it before hand.

    For me it is the same outside of Airsoft - sure I can order DVD's online, wait a couple of days, and then watch them...or I can walk into a store and buy them and be able to watch them right away. I can order a guitar online, and wait, or I can buy in-store and if I have problems I have a face to talk to, instead of having scores upon scores of emails with people. You can save in some areas, and end up paying through the teeth in others. By all means know exactly what you're buying, but remember to search for the best deal and not get hung up entirely on price

    What Ricka had started saying in this thread has been lost along the way, so I will reiterate:
    - Legal grey area in operations (retailers importing guns etc)
    - Status of the retailer licenses (still pending - no proper definites)
    - Site owners not knowing who to go to in order to ensure they have everything above board etc.
    - Head-in-sand approach to all things Airsoft...the fact of the matter is we know sweet FA about most things here, and we take it on assumption and good faith. Very few of us (I can't say none, as someone here on Boards.ie has been privvy to it) know Garda Ballistics testing procedure, and thus are unsure the exact definition of legality surrounding power limits e.g. gas rifles with NPAS, AEG's with adjustable FPS, quick-change spring systems etc, legal definition of RIF etc. There is a LOT of assumption, not a lot of answers, and that is a problem. Unfortunately law tends to prefer the comfort of grey area, relying on court

    I do agree with many posts in this thread - the market is just adjusting, no doubt. However it is still a little worrying how much we take on faith. M203 grenades, guns running on different gases, the overall strength of the gun's internals being capable of firing over the limits etc. I guess...I guess I would just love clear clean cut answers and definitions:
    This is fine. That is not. You can do this. You can't do that. Why? It provides you with the framework in which you can truly evolve, and evolve without fear of having to close down all of a sudden.


  • #43
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    I genuinely don't get it when people mention we should license airsofters?

    Where does this idea come from, and in what way can it in anyway be beneficial ?

    I'm not being smart, I've heard it before, and there is ****all benefits to it, only downsides and heartache.

    Its like it comes from people who want to pretend they are real steel shooters

    My local station tells me to go **** a duck when I enquire about licensing for non firing replica pistols, I'm pretty sure I'd get raped if I asked for a form to license my toy gun.


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Toy guns

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


  • #44
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    I'm with Doc on the licensing of airsofters. I'm registered with UKARA; it's not such a big deal if you're a skirmisher, but if you're not ... you're screwed. Anyone who thinks that licensing airsofters is the way forward that may be influenced by the UK situation needs to remember one important fact. One very important fact at that;

    the UKARA-proposed 'skirmisher defence' (ergo effectively a 'licensing scheme' of sorts) was a last desperate attempt at compromise with the UK home office in order to keep airsoft in the UK as the then VCRB * originally had airsoft written out of legal existence except for filming and re-enactment. The defence was eventually written into the VCRB which became the VCRA ** but only after a significant amount of lobbying and consultative legwork.

    The defence works albeit as a very imperfect solution. It's clumsy and clunky, and really only for people who play airsoft. Collectors and plinkers are completely stuffed unfortunately, as is anyone under the age of eighteen who wishes to purchase a RIF.

    I really can't see a similar solution working any better in Ireland tbh.


    * Violent Crime Reduction Bill
    ** Violent Crime Reduction Act, Oct 1st 2007


  • #45
    AirsoftEire.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭AirsoftEire.com


    Just stumbled upon this thread as I don't read the Airsoft section on Boards anywhere near as much as I used to. This thread makes for grim enough reading and its a shame.

    What do I make of Airsoft in Ireland at the moment? Well the one thing that stands out is that there is no direction or organisation to anything; everything seems "up in the air". And without a doubt the biggest cause of this is the lack of communication with the Gardaí and the Dept. of Justice. The message is quite clear from them, they don't give a toss.

    In my experience, airsoft could not be any further down their list of priorities. You would not believe the level of lack of knowledge in the Gardaí regarding airsoft that I have encountered and heard first hand from other site owners and retailers. 6 years on and not only do regular Gardaí not have a clue what airsoft is, the sergeants don't, the superintendents don't and even the ERU don't. This is true right down the east cost from everyone i've spoken too, incredible stuff. And try getting through to someone in the Dept. of Justice where people are constantly being shifted around and different people answering the phone daily in the same office and you really wonder if anyone knows/cares that airsoft even exists here.

    The only people that are 100% aware of us (retailers) are Revenue, surprise, surprise. Beyond that, there isn't a lot of interest in government departments that I can make out.

    Just something that angered me was Docs statement about Irish prices and how we're "doing it wrong". Catch a grip, I will eat my hat if you yourself can order even x500 KJ 1911s direct from KJ themselves, import them paying your VAT, duty, shipping and business costs and sell them at €102 and make more than €5 a piece. I would expect more from you than making a fleeting statement like that. You know the cost of business here, you know the cost of rates, rent, insurance etc, why would you make us out to be rip-off merchants? You got a nice warranty with that KJ 1911 you ordered too I presume?

    I also got a vibe from this thread that retailers don't get on and that we all hate each other. There's not one retailer I have a single problem with and in fact its quite the opposite, I enjoy the occasional banter we have and its great to hear from others in the business. I personally would love to have a commercial group that has the retailers/site owners interests in mind, it would be a great forum with a louder voice that a few of us working independently.

    Also saw a few blows at Derek mentioned, personally I find Derek a wealth of information on what's going with the Justice/customs crowd, as he without a doubt has had the most hassle from every aspect of the law, be it gardai/customs/firearms dept/dept justice etc. We're not "in" with any other retailers and I have absolutely no problem with anyone in the industry.

    In regards airsoft as a sport, well all I can call from is personal exerience. Airsoft is doing extremely well here in Louth, it has really taken off in the last 2 years and we've just got bigger and bigger. We have zero affiliation to any local sites, but they are contributing in a big way to our business, the main ones being ADA and Bellurgan Park. There are a fantastic group of players and loyal customers up here and I have zero complaints about business. I often feel we are somewhat isolated up here in Dundalk from the goings-on in airsoft nationwide as the next closest shop is 50 odd miles away and then you have the incredibly poor selection on the other side of the border. We send a lot of items out nationwide to many locations where airsoft shops are non-existent and that helps us a lot on any slow days we have. I like to think our website gives something of an instore feel without having to make the journey, that is, give as much stock information, product information and imagery as you possible can, which gives people across the country better access to airsoft products,.

    What would I like to see in regards the law? As touched on, some kind of 1-2 joule permit for retailers, allowing them to downgrade before sale. The airsoft industry is not made for 1 joule, to expect us to run an airsoft industry with sub 1 joule guns on import makes things very difficult and limits selection. We turn away special orders daily because of it.

    I would like to see a standard implemented in regard chronographing, whereby all sites and shops have the same chronograph and all measure according to the same guidelines.

    I would like to see the closing down of I don't know how many shops/markets who are selling airsoft products, who are not registered for VAT and who are not paying any duty on import. Some of these shops might surprise you, you can spot them by noting their prices, some 20-25% cheaper than the main stores.

    I'm not so sure any kind of registration system is needed for the ownership of airsoft guns, certainly not until I could see some statistics/reports of why it needs to be required. Dual tone is utterly pointless in my view, as are red tips. UKARA seems to have destroyed airsoft retail, certainly in northern ireland. Licensing retailers is a must in my view.

    I would still love to see some kind of TV promotion for airsoft. The only piece I have seen was on Nationwide over a year ago and was all but 90 seconds long. It would be great to get a nice 10 minute segment in their next sport programme.

    Steve


  • #46
    Murphino
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Murphino


    Better late than never...

    Firstly, as someone who has entered the sport in the last year or so and has brought other players with me, I’d like to point out that Airsoft by and large is a fantastic past time with lots of potential in Ireland. The turning point was a brief chat with an enthusiastic gamer in an airsoft shop on Talbot street in Dublin who encouraged me to game, it started there, 4 of us, over €2k later and counting, we’re having a ball!

    The reason I post is as follows…there are the obvious threats such as changes to legislation, an Garda Siochana, rising rents, planning requirements (as seems the most recent case of a venue shutting down), and I’m sure a few more but in general one of the most obvious and controllable issues is the quality of the gaming experience...marshalling, facilities and marketing…three areas I would use to describe what I think the industry should be focussing on, because quite simply you can’t control the rest.

    So to the point...Airsoft has very obviously grown in recent years, I will not claim to know it all about the sport and I am not privy to what has gone before, I've read back through posts in recent years to try understand the sport's development. I say firstly hats off to those who put it on the map, lobbied for legislation and did all the difficult stuff, it has made it possible for me and my lads to pick up a new hobby in our late 20's / early 30's and get seriously enthusiastic about it in the process.

    To protect this great pass time we need to focus on the quality of the gaming experience for both new and existing players, offer proper facilities, safe environments, promote the sport where possible, a big emphasis has to be placed on venue safety, and we’ve all seen examples of bad practice. Build on the good stuff, there’s an Airsoft Channel on YouTube for Irish Airsoft, seasonal events such as Zombies, Christmas events, Open Days etc., these are the things that help raise the profile of the sport.

    It’s the ‘newbies’, the ‘rentals’, the one timers we need to focus on because they’re the ones that will ultimately determine the proper growth of this sport in Ireland and ultimately a sustainable industry for all concerned.

    The IAA needs to have a fresh impetus, a fresh outlook, it’s easy to take the high ground, criticise them for being stale or unresponsive but who’s doing anything about it? Turn up to the AGM in the January at the Red Cow lads, become a member and vote with your feet, otherwise there’s little point in complaining. :)


  • #47
    Fallschirmjager
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,341 ✭✭✭Fallschirmjager


    firstly happy christmas to one and all,

    i am waiting in our 6year old and our sister in laws 4 year old and our one month old to wake up for santa so this is the calm before the storm, hence this post.

    i think it is very dangerous to remove airsoft from the overall climate in this country and treat it separately. we should not. this country is not business friendly. its not tax payer friendly. as for the shop/buyer: i can also see both sides. shops under the hammer with rates and costs, customers under the hammer to pay more. i hear this issue on local costs a lot in Ireland affecting prices. that is a bigger issue here. its why we are dearer for everything. anyone here ever buy a pizza in Germany or Sweden for example? notice that price difference...because in my experience they are twice sometimes three times the price here. so its not just airsoft, its everything. we have a problem as a country not as airsoft. i also agree on the skirmisher license issues. that simply wont work. it will kill off our fledgling sport. we should resist the temptation to succumb to a short term solution as it will not work and kill us with a thousand cuts.Also i might add it is as much a sport as anything else is.

    also it is not my role as a buyer to keep irish suppliers in business. thats your job. why would i buy from you. thats why you are in business, to get my business. i am not obligated to keep irish firms open, thats the role of irish firms, but we are bombarded daily by business and govt that we should feel patriotic and buy irish. thats the anti-ikea arguement or anti-tesco arguement and its a loosing proposition. its akin to standing on the west coast and trying to stop a storm with your hand. here is a weird view, how about you get competitive and get more business? the issue is government, its always government. if they allowed irish companies to compete we would rule the freaking planet. the reality of using the law as an instrument to force success onto irish suppliers is a false flag operation. yet again we have the government picking winners and loosers, and with their experience -- its generally the latter. that is crony capitalism, and quite frankly we are living the results of the last great government intervention in picking winners and loosers right now. we dont need some weird crony airsoft. what we need is a simple law and IMHO the IAA has done a great job so far on this within a screwed up system. they have kept us legal. for that i am eternally greatful. the law should state if you are caught using a hot aeg in public, you get fined etc. that is the most logical approach. that way you can import as a shop or a buyer an aeg at 500fps, since you are now wielding it in public, you can then resync it to the law for public use. now we wont get that because we dont have a government that thinks that way. we dont have a government that is there for its citizens, its there to ensure one thing, more government. we dont need more laws we need less and we need strict enforcement. again that is nothing to do with airsoft, that is an irish problem. actually its a worldwide one but i will take that up on the politics board if anyone wants a discussion.

    we are in for a tough time as both players and business. players have less money due to taxes (have you noticed the drop, i certainly have). business are charged more to keep alive a system that has patently failed. what we should have is less of everything, less taxes, less onerous business costs, less laws (and enforced) and watch us grow, both in airsoft and elsewhere. what we need to realise is airsoft is a great symptom of a malaise here. its really a temperature gauge of a problem. players with less, business costing more and, well, read this thread to see the results. companies close, players drop off buying and in some cases, relatively small differences between buying abroad and here force players to risk importation and the associated risks (taxes, over powered aegs, support etc).

    we are in this together. you cant look at airsoft as a commerical side unless you look at what we are all forced to do. commercial doesnt exist without players. the issue of dodgy sites, is a symptom of a problem, its telling us that the laws to create a site are all over the place. Look at what happened to Paul (legal in every way i might add) and his site as an example of the government problem. shops shutting are showing that companies cannot compete and earn a living. players paying more on vat and more on taxes means less money to buy the luxury items of airsoft. it is all interrelated. we need to resist the temptation to allow the government to pick winners, even if you are one of the winners because it is an illusion of success. they will come for you too, its just a matter of time.

    anyways, its christmas, i hope your airsoft santa arrived, myself unfortunately could simply not afford it this year. i know i have a 6 year old waiting to play, lets hope by the time he is old enough to buy, we have a different approach.

    merry christmas to one and all...and again this is just my opinion, dont get upset....


  • #48
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Business isn't really that bad but I think more legislation would help, if there were no "illegit" retailers (according to the legislation that hasn't been enacted yet) there would be more to go around to everyone else and there would be less issues with the sport itself. Retailers would also feel more comfortable making a greater investment in stock and range. For instance I saw a gun in a retail outlet and I thought it was a bit high priced, the retailer brought me over to have a look at it and then showed me the wholesale price he paid, the mark up was good but when we talked about the cost of downgrading it (Staff & stock) Stocking it (rates and rent) and then selling it (more staff) it wasn't a lot of money and the price then seemed very fair to me.

    If sales were up from the fly by night lads closing down retailers could be more competitive because thier bottom line would be covered. The average price could then be lowered to an acceptable level (Not a stupidly low price to avoid other people getting the sale) because there would be no more fears of somone who isn't paying all of the above dramatically undercutting you. Buying Irish is more sensible to me because granted there is no commercial side of things without players but there is no airsoft without sites and retailers either. If it were just a load of people importing rifs in Ireland and playing on some land in the back arse of nowhere the gov would have no reason to leave it legal and either way it wouldn't be a good thing.

    Protecting Irish jobs is always a good argument I think, besides I've yet to meet a retailer that won't bargain about the price when there is cash infront of them. With the running costs your normal prices couldn't be that low because you won't make money and if you make no money you close.


  • #49
    hightower1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭hightower1


    Maybe its just a case that airsoft in Ireland was very slow to get going and is still quite small. As a result the customer base just isnt large enough yet to justify retailers to stock large amounts and as a result of that they cannot get discounts / pass that along to the customers.

    I started in airsoft about 4 years ago now and general prices seemed to have dropped over the years imo. Maybe thats competition or maybe its the retailers able to drop prices in response to growing customer demand Im not sure.

    Personally I dropped around 350 on airsoft this month in airsoftguns in LMK and every time I went in there the shop seemed to be buzzing. It was a really great sight to see . Worrying on one hand were the kids with parents buying AEGs but I have to have faith that this will be ultimatly a good thing in terms of growing airsoft rather than a bad thing (such as kids not understanding RIFs and terrorising neighbourhoods :eek:). In time these kids will play or collect and add o the customer base and allow retailers stock more and more and bring pices down..... just right now, the small numbers we have , have to bear the pain of growing the sport by paying slightly higher prices in order to keep the lifeline of supply in country until retailers can do their part and get airsoft items to eager new comers.

    I started off 4 years ago with an l96, thought it was the best thing ever. I had no idea of boards, the legalities or the community in general just like I would imagine a lot of kids this year BUT I found my way to the greater world of airsoft in generall and am now spending on average 1500eur a year on it (and the amount is rising.... :o) so perhaps some of those kids picking up their first aeg will do the same and as the community grows so too will demand, supply, and prices drop. We are just in growing pains stage right now I would imagine. Hopefully airsoft as a niche sport will ht adolecence soon.


    Edit: imo all rif purchases in Ireland should include a flyer with a link to here, boards has been invaluable to me loving this sport and a huge thank you to everyone here for their contribution to the airsoft section.


  • #50
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Well it seems that Fingal has been closed temporarily while some paperwork gets sorted.

    Interesting how I read about 3 different stories this morning, when Bren clearly states what the issue is.

    Also interesting is the comments on his Facebook page by his customers underneath. Absolutely epic lols.

    Do me a favour, if your going to be calling the Gaurds ****, bastards and "**** the police" because they are essentially enforcing law while some paperwork is procesed, throw your kit up on adverts there and go away.

    Seriously some people....

    Everyone acts like we are always the victim and that we are getting shafted. Yet you read comments like that and you shake your head. Does nothing but simply make matters worse.

    And these are probably the same people who say " The IAA should be promoting airsoft" "We should take the streets in our gear and inform people about airsoft" etc etc **** idea number 4 etc etc

    Everyone just needs to calm down and take a reality check on how big airsoft actually is : /

    Consolidation, stabilisation and natural growth, thats the name of the game folks.

    Airsoft had a little burst a while back, but we won't see the likes of it again for a good while, if ever. The next couple of years is about moving things on gradually.

    People wondering why there isnt MASSIVE campaigns and massive growth every year are clearly out of touch with how the world works.

    My view on how things are going to go here. There will be more site and retailer closures. Most purchases by players ( not collectors) will come from abroad, and more and more will move to buying in from abroad. New player growth will stagnate and level off.

    Then we will hit a point where there will a reasonable amount of sites and retailers to support the community actively playing and purchasing. Once there is a consolidation, and focus with people buying from one or two retailers, and playing on one or two sites, the propriators of those sites and stores can invest some capital into their business to ensure repeat custom, freshness and growth.

    I really don't see it any other way, youd swear there was 50,000 airsofters playing every week with the way people go on around here and on Facebook.

    I'd love some sort of census, cause I would put my house on less then 500 turn out per weekend for a game, actually, would probably go with less then 200.


  • #51
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    AirsoftEire.com wrote: »

    Just something that angered me was Docs statement about Irish prices and how we're "doing it wrong". Catch a grip, I will eat my hat if you yourself can order even x500 KJ 1911s direct from KJ themselves, import them paying your VAT, duty, shipping and business costs and sell them at €102 and make more than €5 a piece. I would expect more from you than making a fleeting statement like that. You know the cost of business here, you know the cost of rates, rent, insurance etc, why would you make us out to be rip-off merchants? You got a nice warranty with that KJ 1911 you ordered too I presume?

    The point I was making was something similar to the above. That while the going is tough, its only going to get worse as we are consumers are hunting for the best prices, and those prices arn't in Ireland.

    I fully appreciate and understand WHY Irish retailers find it difficult to price things competitively. I'm not making anyone out to be rip off merchants, there is a simple fact that buying Irish is more expensive. And I'm buying abroad long enough not to believe in the "A but the tax will sting you" arguement anymore.

    But there is no denying the very simple truth that buying abroad is cheaper now, and in my experience of buying in the past, alot less hassle then it used to be.

    And yes my Pistol did come with a warranty, one of the mags arrived broken and I sent it back and had it replaced.

    While I appreciate that its a sensitive subject and maybe I came accross too bluntly, but when I read about the gripes of commercial entities, which is fair enough times are hard, I can't help but think there is 101 fingers pointed in 101 directions other then the plane jane fact that our stores are ismply no longer competitive.

    There was a time, a period for about 8-10 months were Irish stores were retailing as the cheapest in Europe with the best products, and alot of international trading was done. But that is definitly not the case anymore.

    I guess I'm interested to know at what point do you just say " nah, this isn't going to get any better, time to pack it in"

    I gather there is still a portion of people who prefer to buy Irish, buy over the counter and have some comeback ( but who hasnt had a nightmare with an irish retailer and getting a warranty honoured) but it doesn't negate my point that there seems to be a lack of inventiveness or stimulation in trying to sway me from buying abroad

    (me in this context is people like me who buy abroad now)


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