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Why do we put children though school?

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Comments

  • #32
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    If reading and writing was the goal of school kids would be finished school at about 7 or 8 years old.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Ah come on Chuck, surely you agree that you have a far higher level of literacy at the end of your schooling than you do at 7 or 8?

    Logical Fallacy correctly said it for me.

    I was an exception to most. I was reading an older sisters secondary sixth year books at seven years of age and books like Lord of the Rings.
    On average though, not only is basic reading taught, but the ability to read between the lines in later years.
    This alone helps to increase perception skills and analytical abilities in many other areas of education already learned and yet to come.
    ...Becoming a form of street-wise in rough terms.

    You can't teach all that to someone up to 7/8 and then send them packing "Right, your ready for the world!"


  • #33
    Abi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,058 ✭✭✭✭Abi


    There's more to it than that. School not only educates the child, but broadens it's social circle and social skills. Not sending a child to school just does not compute to me.


  • #34
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    Apart from reading and writing I can't remember anything I learned from school except that kids like to make other kids lives a misery and that teachers like to ridicule children in front of their classmates.

    I was always told that school was supposed to "prepare me for life". I suppose it did in a way. It taught me that most people are fuckers.


  • #35
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    School teaches you social skills and conformity.


  • #36
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    ...It taught me that most people are fuckers.

    Unless they have had their bits cut off - I would say so too!
    My wife would say I'm one on a regular basis! :o


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  • #37
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Flawed logic Chuck

    Why is it flawed logic?
    you still read daily in school, a variety of subjects that covered a very rich lexicon and it had an affect on your level of literacy.

    As I said previously I did my own reading at home and my Father read to us as children almost every night. Those factors would have been far more educational as regards English than listening to a teacher droning on about Mr Gradgrind.

    School was boring for me (except for History, Geography and Science), I'm mathematically retarded, and yet before the web became ubiquitous I would sit down with a sociological dictionary and read it for hours.

    Anyway this isn't about me it's about questioning the Educational system!

    Like it or not the world wide web is going to change traditional educational systems enormously.

    I was talking to my niece and nephew and trying to explain to them that before the WWW people had to buy the Encyclopedia Britannica to have anywhere near as much access to information. They were truly astonished - and when you think of it it is quite astonishing.


  • #38
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Not a chance I'm sending my kids to be taught the same thing for 6 straight years after two years of playing with blocks.

    What social interaction is there in school? About an hour in bits and pieces between getting told to shut up.


  • #39
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Why is it flawed logic?

    Because you spent hours and hours a day reading about a vast variety of subjects and are completely unwilling to give it any credit for your level of literacy.

    I just think you are letting your dislike for the education system affect your opinion a bit too much.

    I find it almost impossible to believe that an intelligent poster such as yourself cannot see how it benefited you.


  • #40
    Nolanger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,556 ✭✭✭Nolanger


    kylith wrote: »
    School teaches you social skills and conformity.
    and how to get into college and then whinge because there are no jobs to suit your qualifications and then emigrate.


  • #41
    tempura
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭tempura


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    /puts hand up timidly.

    I got a job without a degree.


    Me too.


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  • #42
    WalterMitty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Why is it flawed logic?



    As I said previously I did my own reading at home and my Father read to us as children almost every night. Those factors would have been far more educational as regards English than listening to a teacher droning on about Mr Gradgrind.

    School was boring for me (except for History, Geography and Science), I'm mathematically retarded, and yet before the web became ubiquitous I would sit down with a sociological dictionary and read it for hours.

    Anyway this isn't about me it's about questioning the Educational system!

    Like it or not the world wide web is going to change traditional educational systems enormously.

    I was talking to my niece and nephew and trying to explain to them that before the WWW people had to buy the Encyclopedia Britannica to have anywhere near as much access to information. They were truly astonished - and when you think of it it is quite astonishing.
    Teachers in our primary school (late 80s in Dublin) used to make us raise funds so we could have encyclopedia set for the school but we then never got to use the bloody thing! My parents couldnt afford a set so it was tv every night for me instead of interesting books.


  • #43
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Biggins wrote: »
    On average though, not only is basic reading taught, but the ability to read between the lines in later years.

    Not a chance Biggins. School teaches more about conformity than critical and creative thinking. Don't listen to me - listen to Sir Ken Robinson (Knighted for his services to education).

    Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity
    You can't teach all that to someone up to 7/8 and then send them packing "Right, your read for the world!"

    Ah you're building a strawman there B. Where did I make the argument that that should be the course of action?


  • #44
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    ClocksForward wrote: »
    Looking back over the years wasted in secondary education in this country, it got me thinkling..why does society feel the need to push children through this sweat shop of indoctrination in lieu of giving the little bastards a library card and a mentor?

    I can't speak for anybody else, but I've had to unlearn most of the rubbish "taught" in school. Teach the kid the basics, then leave him to his own devices I say. Children who are going to make something of themselves are going to do it regardless.

    We don't need this excuse of a system to be perpetuated at large. I say remove the need for these "teachers" to stroke their ego by teaching children garbage like "CSPE" or how to cook a ****ing slice of toast. If you want to learn calculus, there are no shortage of books. Secondary education has more in common with a circus act imo.

    Autodidactism for all:)


    So their brains can like think good


  • #45
    Shanotheslayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,191 ✭✭✭✭Shanotheslayer


    Im too drunk for this thread,.


  • #46
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    Because school is not about learning, it's about getting kids used to the mindless drudgery and routine of a 9-5 job. It's social compliance training.

    Think about it, if you were given the freedom to learn about things you were truly interested in a non-structured environment for the first 17 years of your life and then told that you now had to sit down and be dictated to in a hierarchical fashion it would come as a bit of a shock. Can't have people thinking that there is a nicer way to live, what would happen to productivity in a nation full of independent thinkers?
    That's right. If children don't learn from an early age that everyone is their boss, everyone must dress and look the same and that every misstep has dire consequences in regards to their future employability, they will live unhappy unfulfilled lives doing what they want to do and following their own selfish persuits.


  • #47
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    The biggest waste of time in school was P.E. For me it was forty minutes of sheer misery with thirty odd pupils laughing at me for not being able to kick a football. I know it's supposed to keep children fit but I would have been better off if I had gotten out of school forty minutes early so I could have gotten exercise on my own terms by going for a walk or something.

    Then there was music. I see children coming out of school now with guitar and violin cases but it wasn't like that for me. All I can remember is the teacher waffling on about songs I had never heard of. I never even saw a musical instrument in the class. For all I know the teacher may not have had any musical knowledge or ability whatsoever.


  • #48
    Saila
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,751 ✭✭✭Saila


    dont you just hate people who think because they view it one way everone else does and should view it that way?. people learn in different ways and have different levels of self discipline and motivation. school works for the majority OP thats why it is there. you are and a few others in this thread are in the minority, Im not saying I am not by the way but the difference is I can see why its needed for the majority.


  • #49
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Not a chance Biggins. School teaches more about conformity than critical and creative thinking. Don't listen to me - listen to Sir Ken Robinson (Knighted for his services to education).

    Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity

    Thats an OPINION - not a scientific fact!
    Meanwhile, the numerous abilities I learned during the latter years of my schooling have stood me good stead! I am assuming many others are in the same 'boat'.
    (See that last line - a 7/8 year old would see the word "boat" and just read it as that. Later years of schooling would teach them to actually read it as its meant!)

    Its no use learning to read the likes of Emily Dickinson if you can't read between the lines and come to a conclusion of what she was speaking about.
    The same methodology applies for Shakespeare and basically any other complex layer writer that is not Jeffrey Archer in style of writing.


  • #50
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Because you spent hours and hours a day reading about a vast variety of subjects and are completely unwilling to give it any credit for your level of literacy.

    Seriously I only took in what interested me. I wouldn't describe myself as being extremely literate tbh! If you were to ask me what an adjective, noun, or pronoun was I'd really struggle with an answer yet my English is a pretty good standard when it needs to be.
    I just think you are letting your dislike for the education system affect your opinion a bit too much.

    I don't dislike our education system per se - it just irks me when people try to suppress questions about the systems we all take for granted.
    I find it almost impossible to believe that an intelligent poster such as yourself cannot see how it benefited you.

    Thank you for the kind words but in fairness I have no way of knowing what level of proficiency in any subject I would have achieved with or without school.

    I am of the opinion that I would have learned quite a lot by myself after the age of about 8/9 through books - and if I were 8 or 9 now-a-days I would have had the web to sate my knowledge thirst.

    Anyhoo, this really isn't about me. :)


  • #51
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    I find it scary how so many people can't get their head around the concept of raising children outside of a school system. I think it's great that the idea Unschooling and Deschooling are becoming more popular and if I ever had children of my own I would seriously consider doing it.

    On the subject of school "socialising" children, I think the Wikipedia article sums it up
    Concerns about socialization are often a factor in the decision to unschool. Many unschoolers believe that the conditions common in conventional schools, like age segregation, a low ratio of adults to children, a lack of contact with the community, and a lack of people in professions other than teachers or school administration create an unhealthy social environment.[15] They feel that their children benefit from coming in contact with people of diverse ages and backgrounds in a variety of contexts. They also feel that their children benefit from having some ability to influence what people they encounter, and in what contexts they encounter them.


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  • #52
    JohnMarston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭JohnMarston


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    The biggest waste of time in school was P.E. For me it was forty minutes of sheer misery with thirty odd pupils laughing at me for not being able to kick a football. I know it's supposed to keep children fit but I would have been better off if I had gotten out of school forty minutes early so I could have gotten exercise on my own terms by going for a walk or something.

    Then there was music. I see children coming out of school now with guitar and violin cases but it wasn't like that for me. All I can remember is the teacher waffling on about songs I had never heard of. I never even saw a musical instrument in the class. For all I know the teacher may not have had any musical knowledge or ability whatsoever.

    Pretty much my experience of it too. I remember carrying home a tonnage of books every day from school too, cos of homework. I see kids doing the same thing nowdays, barely even teenagers and having to break their backs bringing home a literal library.
    I thought there would have been steps to do away with paper books, and instead use digital media (i.e. ebooks)


  • #53
    Haelium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    Has it occurred to anybody that we teach children Calculus and Poetry so that their minds develop so that they can use their brains to solve real world problems?

    The brain is like a muscle, if you don't use it, it will waste away.


  • #54
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Its no use learning to read the likes of Emily Dickinson if you can't read between the lines and come to a conclusion of what she was speaking about.
    The same methodology applies for Shakespeare and basically any other complex layer writer that is not Jeffrey Archer in style of writing.

    Couldn't agree more with this bit. I just disagree that reading between the lines is taught in any substantive manner in traditional education systems.
    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    The biggest waste of time in school was P.E. For me it was forty minutes of sheer misery with thirty odd pupils laughing at me for not being able to kick a football.

    I didn't really mind P.E. because I'm not too bad at soccer - what I did hate was exposing my skinny boy-child legs. God did I hate that! :D
    Then there was music.

    All I remember of music class was a cacophony of screaming recorders - nightmarish sounds lol.


  • #55
    Abi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,058 ✭✭✭✭Abi


    Haelium wrote: »
    Has it occurred to anybody that we teach children Calculus and Poetry so that their minds develop so that they can use their brains to solve real world problems?

    The brain is like a muscle, if you don't use it, it will waste away.

    It's actually quite scary that some people don't seem to understand this.


  • #56
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Haelium wrote: »
    Has it occurred to anybody that we teach children Calculus and Poetry so that their minds develop so that they can use their brains to solve real world problems?

    Wait...

    Calculus and poetry teach children to solve real world problems!?

    No it doesn't!


  • #57
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    Haelium wrote: »
    Has it occurred to anybody that we teach children Calculus and Poetry so that their minds develop so that they can use their brains to solve real world problems?

    The brain is like a muscle, if you don't use it, it will waste away.

    I don't think the thread is about learning, it's about learning within the institutional education system as it exists in its current form.


  • #58
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't agree that school in general is waste of time. Much of what you learn in primary school is quite beneficial, such as reading, writing, spelling and maths. Lets face it, if you want to overhaul the system in the way the OP mentioned then you'll still have to teach people how to read.

    However I do think secondary is a waste; a huge amount of what I learned in there was of no use to me whatsoever and has thus been forgotten. I'd be all for changing the secondary system to something which is more relevant.


  • #59
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    ...I just disagree that reading between the lines is taught in any substantive manner in traditional education systems.
    Well in that case I was lucky. I had and was in, a very traditional education system.
    I learned the ability to read beyond the written word through that system. - but thats just me. :)


  • #60
    Abi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,058 ✭✭✭✭Abi


    Truley wrote: »
    I don't think the thread is about learning, it's about learning within the institutional education system as it exists in its current form.
    What exactly is wrong with the current system though?


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  • #61
    Haelium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Wait...

    Calculus and poetry teach children to solve real world problems!?

    No it doesn't!

    Calculus is perhaps one of the most valuable mathematical areas that exists. In the world of engineering and metorology it is gold.
    Poetry allows us to expand our literacy skills and understand subtext, allowing for more efficient communication.

    However I meant that these tools, assuming they are not useful to a person, are still valuable as a method of helping development of a child's brain.

    In my experience, Calculus has changed the way I think about things completely.


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