Some questions from a beginner

phatrat1982 · 15-11-2011 9:49pm #1

Ok so I have recently begun learning some Irish, which is sort of what lead me to this website, so I am full of questions and figured this would be a good place to start.

Here goes, first I live in the US so for me finding native speakers is well difficult to say the least, but I do have access to the internet which has given me plenty of sources to listen to speakers, um I am not a native speaker so I have no way of distinguishing one dialect from another so sometimes I see a youtube video or listen to an mp3 somewhere and some words sound sorta familiar but sometimes different. My primary question then is if I hear a word said one way and then hear it said a different way someplace else how am I to tell what is the more common usage?

Would it be best to just learn the different ways of saying everything or is there a common dialect one could master and be understood by everyone else?

Like how distinct are the dialects I guess is what I am asking? I being an American I can distinguish from the different Dialects of English within my own country and even though the deep southern Appalachia hillbilly's are the only ones that really give me trouble I can pretty much converse with any English speaking American no problem. But when I tune into Doctor Who or Torchwood especially there are times when I have to re-watch a scene multiple times to figure out what was said. And forgive me for my ignorance but I understand Irish English is entirely different as well and I assume that reflects in the native language too so I guess what worries me is if I learn one way of saying things would I still be understood even if my usage would be uncommon or would I drawn blanks from people if I don't learn the right dialect?

I started with the BBC Giota Beag series, um they say they are speaking the Ulster Dialect I guess but I am told that that dialect is funky so should I discontinue listening to that program and find other sources or am I making a bigger deal than it really is?

Sorry for the long post I just have so many questions and I want to make sure I get things right.

pog it · 16-11-2011 9:13am

Cool. So you've got your priorities right and are already miles ahead of most other learners in that you recognise the importance of tuning in to a particular dialect. The BBC series is very good and although I learned the Conamara dialect I tapped into it to learn certain grammar points, etc.

If you haven't already done so then have a listen to all the different dialects and see which one you genuinely love the most, and then seek out the resources for that particular dialect. There are learning books and cds for all the dialects (apart from the more obscure or dying out dialects like Mayo) so you'll have no trouble getting started even from the US.

I just wish we had a few more Irish people who would set their minds to learning some proper Irish.

Anyway, keep asking questions as you learn. That's how I needed up with this many posts- I was on this forum a lot for a period of about 6 months to one year while I was trying to become properly fluent in the language. I'm on a break from it now, but I got great help here and on www.daltai.com and it made all the difference. They're are people on these forums with incredible knowledge of the language and the dialects and who are only too happy to help.

Raidio na Gaeltachta - the Irish language radio- is a great way to start if you can get it on the rte.ie website from where you are. All the main dialects are represented on there so give us a shout if you're wondering who's from where!

cytex · 16-11-2011 11:05am

phatrat1982 wrote: »

Ok so I have recently begun learning some Irish, which is sort of what lead me to this website, so I am full of questions and figured this would be a good place to start.

Here goes, first I live in the US so for me finding native speakers is well difficult to say the least, but I do have access to the internet which has given me plenty of sources to listen to speakers, um I am not a native speaker so I have no way of distinguishing one dialect from another so sometimes I see a youtube video or listen to an mp3 somewhere and some words sound sorta familiar but sometimes different. My primary question then is if I hear a word said one way and then hear it said a different way someplace else how am I to tell what is the more common usage?

Would it be best to just learn the different ways of saying everything or is there a common dialect one could master and be understood by everyone else?

Like how distinct are the dialects I guess is what I am asking? I being an American I can distinguish from the different Dialects of English within my own country and even though the deep southern Appalachia hillbilly's are the only ones that really give me trouble I can pretty much converse with any English speaking American no problem. But when I tune into Doctor Who or Torchwood especially there are times when I have to re-watch a scene multiple times to figure out what was said. And forgive me for my ignorance but I understand Irish English is entirely different as well and I assume that reflects in the native language too so I guess what worries me is if I learn one way of saying things would I still be understood even if my usage would be uncommon or would I drawn blanks from people if I don't learn the right dialect?

I started with the BBC Giota Beag series, um they say they are speaking the Ulster Dialect I guess but I am told that that dialect is funky so should I discontinue listening to that program and find other sources or am I making a bigger deal than it really is?

Sorry for the long post I just have so many questions and I want to make sure I get things right.

hi there thought id give my 2 cents . I wouldn't worry about the dialects they are not that different and can be understood by all speakers. think about it as a scots guy speaking to a english guy they both speak english they may have different ways of saying things different accents but they both speak english and can understand each other and if they hang out with each other enough the will start intergrating parts of there speech.

Irish is the same. So dont worry about the dialects just get the prounociation correct with long and slender sounds and such that is the most important thing.

pog it · 16-11-2011 1:37pm

cytex wrote: »

hi there thought id give my 2 cents . I wouldn't worry about the dialects they are not that different and can be understood by all speakers. think about it as a scots guy speaking to a english guy they both speak english they may have different ways of saying things different accents but they both speak english and can understand each other and if they hang out with each other enough the will start intergrating parts of there speech.

Irish is the same. So dont worry about the dialects just get the prounociation correct with long and slender sounds and such that is the most important thing.

Not really. If you don't take on a dialect you don't learn native Irish, you just learn something that resembles the Irish language. Not exactly the best way to go about it.

cytex · 16-11-2011 2:03pm

pog it wrote: »

Not really. If you don't take on a dialect you don't learn native Irish, you just learn something that resembles the Irish language. Not exactly the best way to go about it.

I would disagree can a munster person speak to a ulster person and understand him. The dialect is not the language the language is. And it is the same language regardless of the dialect. And there is absoultly no harm in learning from different people speaking different dialects.

phatrat1982 · 16-11-2011 2:59pm

OK thanks for the input you have both been very helpful and that is a lot to consider. Maybe we should start up our own American dialect if enough people start learning.

pog it · 16-11-2011 6:16pm

cytex wrote: »

I would disagree can a munster person speak to a ulster person and understand him. The dialect is not the language the language is. And it is the same language regardless of the dialect. And there is absoultly no harm in learning from different people speaking different dialects.

I'm curious as to what level of Irish you are at? Just speaking from experience when you're starting out, say picking it up from where you left off from Leaving Cert even, if you are listening constantly to different dialects it gets very confusing as there is actually a lot of variation between the dialects. It's not just a matter of speaking Irish with a Donegal accent or a Conamara accent. They all have different, unique ways of saying things, different forms of verbs, different vocabulary, and so on. It's actually much easier to learn Irish if you branch out to the other dialects later on. By all means pick things up from the different dialects, I have nothing against that, what I'm saying is that a new learner would be far better off focussing on one dialect at the beginning.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you but when I hear someone speaking Irish at a decent level and who hasn't bothered to learn something of the native speech (dialect) I automatically tune out, as do loads more people besides me.

It's up to the person. I'm giving the OP advice from my own perspective and as someone who brought themselves up to a high level of fluency.

pog it · 16-11-2011 6:22pm

cytex wrote: »

I would disagree can a munster person speak to a ulster person and understand him.

Neither of them in that situation are learning Irish, they are both fluent/native speakers so of course they can understand each other. The OP wants to learn Irish and I am merely saying that from my experience it's better to focus on one dialect from the off - in the main. I'm not saying ban all other dialects!

cytex · 16-11-2011 7:08pm

pog it wrote: »

I'm curious as to what level of Irish you are at? Just speaking from experience when you're starting out, say picking it up from where you left off from Leaving Cert even, if you are listening constantly to different dialects it gets very confusing as there is actually a lot of variation between the dialects. It's not just a matter of speaking Irish with a Donegal accent or a Conamara accent. They all have different, unique ways of saying things, different forms of verbs, different vocabulary, and so on. It's actually much easier to learn Irish if you branch out to the other dialects later on. By all means pick things up from the different dialects, I have nothing against that, what I'm saying is that a new learner would be far better off focussing on one dialect at the beginning.

Maybe it doesn't matter to you but when I hear someone speaking Irish at a decent level and who hasn't bothered to learn something of the native speech (dialect) I automatically tune out, as do loads more people besides me.

It's up to the person. I'm giving the OP advice from my own perspective and as someone who brought themselves up to a high level of fluency.

I am a learner im by no means fluent but i do have conversational Irish. it is just the way i have been learning my mam is fluent in blás da rossa (ulster irish) . My teacher is from the ring gaeltacht and i have friends down in Connemara i listen to all of them and learn things from all of them. Now i would agree that each has there own different way of speaking Irish but i honestly see no harm in listening to all of them and learning from all of them rather than focusing on one.

But each to there own i am not saying that your advice is wrong i am merely disagreeing with it from my own experience if any learner wants to learn one particular dialect and finds this easier than thats the approach to go . Maybe i see no harm in it because i was always had different dialects teaching me.

deirdremf · 16-11-2011 9:16pm

cytex wrote: »

I would disagree can a munster person speak to a ulster person and understand him. The dialect is not the language the language is. And it is the same language regardless of the dialect. And there is absoultly no harm in learning from different people speaking different dialects.

pog it wrote: »

Neither of them in that situation are learning Irish, they are both fluent/native speakers so of course they can understand each other. The OP wants to learn Irish and I am merely saying that from my experience it's better to focus on one dialect from the off - in the main. I'm not saying ban all other dialects!

I think that in the beginning it is useful to stick to one dialect, but it is not always easy to find the materials needed to learn a specific dialect unless you are an academic.
If the OP has started out with Donegal Irish, I'd say to keep it up.
Otherwise, I'd say to start with Conamara Irish because the book Learning Irish is probably the best course available at this time.
Later on, when you have the basics (i.e. when you can carry out basic conversations) you can always branch out.

By the way OP, what are your motives for learning Irish? I'm always curious when people begin to learn who live in a foreign country! And even more so in your case, when you say your whole family is involved - I guess there must be a strong family connection there?

phatrat1982 · 17-11-2011 2:04am

Well it's a bit complicated but the short answer is like most Americans we are of mixed heritage and Irish is among our family roots. Plus let's be honest of all the European languages we are aware of it is easily the most unique sounding.

Beyond that we each have our own motive and me personally I am not sticking exclusively with Irish I am also studying Japanese at the moment as well and am contemplating possibly French and German depending on how far I progress with the others.

Then there is the way things are getting in America some of us are seriously considering leaving this place and starting a new life elsewhere and Ireland is at the top of our list of places to relocate and I would hate to move to a country and not learn the language or culture of the people.

Of course not everyone is on board my mom, my three sisters and myself and all their kids are learning up their husbands are not and my dad is too old to learn a new language and is in poor health so he is not concerned with it anyways. He did learn some German as a kid but he told us to forget about our German heritage and focus on being Americans.

Growing up in America and for us we moved around a lot and my dad was adopted as a kid so we never had any real identity we could claim so it was like we needed something tangible we could all get behind and we decided to focus on learning more about our Irish roots because well so there was this fear of going against our dads wishes for the longest time and my mom always makes a big deal about our Irish roots so there is this sense of well that is our Identity Irish-German Americans. But we downplay the German part.

Liobarnach · 18-11-2011 11:09am

phatrat1982 wrote: »

OK thanks for the input you have both been very helpful and that is a lot to consider. Maybe we should start up our own American dialect if enough people start learning.

Now that would be interesting!

I agree with the Poster who said that it doesn't matter what dialect you use; mix and match all you like... that's the way the world is going anyway and you've got to start somewhere!

Accents, dialects and languages are ever-changing and we have to be open to other influences. If you get bogged down with this stuff at such an early stage, you may be making life more difficult for yourself. Learning a language should be fun, if you get too regimented with it and with yourself, you may find that you lose interest in it (and that's one less Irish speaker we have in the world!).

If you become a whizz later on down the road, you can maybe hone in on one dialect, if it means that much to you...

phatrat1982 · 18-11-2011 2:50pm

I guess my concern was learning how to say things one way and running into people who have no idea what I am saying.

Like so far just starting out I ran into Cad é mar atá tú? agus Conas atá tú

both just to say how are you; We learned the first one and that was what I taught the kids to say because three different websites and the mp3s all said it that way but EVERY video I find on Youtube says it the other way. So either it is a confusing phrase and it makes me thing the rest of the language could be like that which is scary, or it makes me think they actually both have different meanings and are just being simplified to how are you.

So if someone could gladly sort that little thing right there out it would be most helpful for us starting out. Because that wasn't the only example we had a hell of a time just finding how to say "hello" which turned out to be complicated by different pronunciations none of which sound similar at all to my ears. Which I could attribute to lack of audio sources to sample form because I have so few.

I have heard it said as Dia Hoot and as Dia Gwitch and another person said it in a way I still can't decipher. Even the sentence Cad é mar atá tú? I have heard said as cad jim ara ta tu or cad ee mar a ta tu which makes me wonder am I just hearing things wrong, is the different speakers accents really that different or what?

Then there is the days of the week I have heard them pronounced with hard D sounds like Da Muart and a J sound as Ja march that confused me further.

I try tuning into TG4 from time to time but I can't always get the player to load and when I do everyone talks to fast for me to pick up anything anyways.

so that is why I was worried about the dialects not because I want to stress myself out over proper ways of saying things just wanting to know is it really that different in how you say those phrases?

I know in English here in the US we do not even say How are you we say "whats up" "how you been" "hows it going" all of which we use in place of "how are you"

my question would be then is that what is going on like the reasons there are two ways of saying how are you is because it's really just mistranslations or is it just really that weird? Sorry if I am confusing it's just I am confused. I am also studying Japanese and I have noticed that it takes speaking to a native speaker sometimes to sort things out but at least I am taking that in class at school so that's easier. I have been trying to get my school to offer Irish as a class but it is a long road and that might be a while if ever and I don't want to sit around and wait for them.

cytex · 19-11-2011 12:42am

phatrat1982 wrote: »

I guess my concern was learning how to say things one way and running into people who have no idea what I am saying.

Like so far just starting out I ran into Cad é mar atá tú? agus Conas atá tú

both just to say how are you; We learned the first one and that was what I taught the kids to say because three different websites and the mp3s all said it that way but EVERY video I find on Youtube says it the other way. So either it is a confusing phrase and it makes me thing the rest of the language could be like that which is scary, or it makes me think they actually both have different meanings and are just being simplified to how are you.

So if someone could gladly sort that little thing right there out it would be most helpful for us starting out. Because that wasn't the only example we had a hell of a time just finding how to say "hello" which turned out to be complicated by different pronunciations none of which sound similar at all to my ears. Which I could attribute to lack of audio sources to sample form because I have so few.

I have heard it said as Dia Hoot and as Dia Gwitch and another person said it in a way I still can't decipher. Even the sentence Cad é mar atá tú? I have heard said as cad jim ara ta tu or cad ee mar a ta tu which makes me wonder am I just hearing things wrong, is the different speakers accents really that different or what?

Then there is the days of the week I have heard them pronounced with hard D sounds like Da Muart and a J sound as Ja march that confused me further.

I try tuning into TG4 from time to time but I can't always get the player to load and when I do everyone talks to fast for me to pick up anything anyways.

so that is why I was worried about the dialects not because I want to stress myself out over proper ways of saying things just wanting to know is it really that different in how you say those phrases?

I know in English here in the US we do not even say How are you we say "whats up" "how you been" "hows it going" all of which we use in place of "how are you"

my question would be then is that what is going on like the reasons there are two ways of saying how are you is because it's really just mistranslations or is it just really that weird? Sorry if I am confusing it's just I am confused. I am also studying Japanese and I have noticed that it takes speaking to a native speaker sometimes to sort things out but at least I am taking that in class at school so that's easier. I have been trying to get my school to offer Irish as a class but it is a long road and that might be a while if ever and I don't want to sit around and wait for them.

Cad é mar atá tú is ulster dialect for how are you
conas atá tú is munster dialect for how are you

both are correct and both would be understood.

It is exactly what you are describing in your english american example.

If it is confusing you then stick with one dialect which ever makes it easier for YOU to have fun learning the language.

And yes the accents in Ireland are that varied to copy des bishops saying the donegal irish sounds like some one is petting you and comes form the top of the mouth while conemarra irish comes from deep down in the stomach and you get to see it

phatrat1982 · 19-11-2011 1:11am

Ok well that does clear things up nicely thanks. I guess I will just keep going forward with the Ulster then because that was what we started with and if we can master that maybe we will compare it to others down the road you all been most helpful thanks a ton.

cytex · 19-11-2011 1:59am

phatrat1982 wrote: »

Ok well that does clear things up nicely thanks. I guess I will just keep going forward with the Ulster then because that was what we started with and if we can master that maybe we will compare it to others down the road you all been most helpful thanks a ton.

No bother .

If you are having trouble understanding tg4 programs try the childrens programs clifford and such they generally speak a lot slower and clearer and are easier to follow along with .

Some questions from a beginner

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