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Ha, take that Ratzinger!

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Comments

  • #212
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Newsite wrote: »
    The reason you don't know what one is really like is because it's very unlikely that you've ever met one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UckdOMZXLEE


  • #213
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    Standman wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UckdOMZXLEE

    I wouldn't class Catholicism as Christianity at all, but that'd be for another thread.


  • #214
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    I've met a hell of a lot of people who claim to be.

    What would you say their overriding characteristics are? Or to put it another way, would you say who they are and how they live their lives is consistent with Christian belief? Just interested.


  • #215
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Newsite wrote: »
    What would you say their overriding characteristics are? Or to put it another way, would you say who they are and how they live their lives is consistent with Christian belief? Just interested.

    Just curious Newsite ,

    how do you decide who or what is a christian ? You have already said that you would not class the Catholic Church as christian , how do you arrive at that conclusion . And if they are not Christian what are they ? I am
    curious as on another thread you said you do not belong to any church , so I am wondering as to the how and why you can decide these things ?


  • #216
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Could Newsite be the only true Christian in the village?


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  • #217
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Newsite wrote: »
    What would you say their overriding characteristics are? Or to put it another way, would you say who they are and how they live their lives is consistent with Christian belief? Just interested.
    The vast majority of Christians (i.e. people who would describe themselves as Christian - including Catholics) are almost exactly like those of us who don't. They give a bit to charity, probably don't go to mass, use contraception, don't think twice about co-habiting and watch Sex and the City without any moral issues.

    They simply live under an imaginary umbrella of "Christianity", when they're not really Christians - they're just people.

    So I'd imagine in your book "actual" Christians are slim to non-existent.


  • #218
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Dades wrote: »
    The vast majority of Christians (i.e. people who would describe themselves as Christian - including Catholics) are almost exactly like those of us who don't. They give a bit to charity, probably don't go to mass, use contraception, don't think twice about co-habiting and watch Sex and the City without any moral issues.

    They simply live under an imaginary umbrella of "Christianity", when they're not really Christians - they're just people.

    So I'd imagine in your book "actual" Christians are slim to non-existent.

    whoah there, speak for yourself. I have moral objections to exploiting the elderly


  • #219
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    Newsite wrote: »
    Ok...Let me put this to you: forgetting any perceived oppression by the Church, is it a good thing for people to be instructed to not cheat on their wives?

    That is a very old argument, but as Robin points out above the immorality of that which harms or deceives another is apparent to all but psychopaths (and they tend to ignore instruction anyway).

    So in order for the churches preaching to be essential to this moral environment the question becomes is cheating wrong because God says so or does God outlaw it because it's wrong?

    I think we can all agree (bar the psychopaths) that God allowing indiscriminate killing would not make it a moral act and in that way it becomes obvious that morality has its source in human thought and that God is just an artificial veneer of authority for the credulous.


  • #220
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    Dades wrote: »
    The vast majority of Christians (i.e. people who would describe themselves as Christian - including Catholics) are almost exactly like those of us who don't. They give a bit to charity, probably don't go to mass, use contraception, don't think twice about co-habiting and watch Sex and the City without any moral issues.

    They simply live under an imaginary umbrella of "Christianity", when they're not really Christians - they're just people.

    So I'd imagine in your book "actual" Christians are slim to non-existent.

    Yes exactly, and that was my point in saying that you've never met one (or if you did, you might not have known it). If you stopped an Irish guy or gal on the street on a Saturday morning leaving the scene of last night's one night stand and asked them if they went to mass, they'd probably say no. If however you asked if they were a Christian, they'd probably puff out their chest slightly and say 'yeah of course'.


  • #221
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    That is a very old argument, but as Robin points out above the immorality of that which harms or deceives another is apparent to all but psychopaths (and they tend to ignore instruction anyway).

    So in order for the churches preaching to be essential to this moral environment the question becomes is cheating wrong because God says so or does God outlaw it because it's wrong?

    God outlaws it because He knows it won't serve us well.
    Skrynesaver wrote: »
    I think we can all agree (bar the psychopaths) that God allowing indiscriminate killing would not make it a moral act and in that way it becomes obvious that morality has its source in human thought and that God is just an artificial veneer of authority for the credulous.

    An interesting point. There is God's morality (which true Christians follow), and human morality (which everyone else follows.

    Human morality is flawed by its very nature. It is subject to relativism and personal interpretation. Some people say it's cool to cheat on your spouse as long as no finds out - that way 'no-one gets hurt'. Others will say it's wrong to do so, but because they're relying on their own willpower/on themselves to not do it, they are subject to all sorts of justifications for doing same in moments of weakness. This is reinforced by the fact that they are answerable only to themselves. When you are a believer, you see the glory in doing God's will and the reward He has prepared for faithful servants.

    Even objectively speaking, I would say that even you would agree that since human behaviour is fundamentally and unarguably motivated primarily by incentive, this is a far greater deterrent to doing that which is morally wrong.


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  • #222
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Gods morality is not subject to relativism? Though it's almost always asked, Newsite what is your opinion on Deuteronomy 22:28-29 so?

    Also have you not gotten around to selling your computer (and all your other possessions) and given it to the poor yet?


  • #223
    Skrynesaver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    Newsite wrote: »
    God outlaws it because He knows it won't serve us well.
    So you cannot determine that cheating on a partner is wrong without an imaginary deterrent?

    Why should I listen to you on any issue of morality when you are clearly morally flawed?
    Newsite wrote: »
    An interesting point. There is God's morality (which true Christians follow), and human morality (which everyone else follows.


    Human morality is flawed by its very nature. It is subject to relativism and personal interpretation. Some people say it's cool to cheat on your spouse as long as no finds out - that way 'no-one gets hurt'.
    Those people are called assh*les and they exist within and without reference to deities. All morality is relative, black and white moral judgements ignore reality

    Newsite wrote: »
    Others will say it's wrong to do so, but because they're relying on their own willpower/on themselves to not do it, they are subject to all sorts of justifications for doing same in moments of weakness. This is reinforced by the fact that they are answerable only to themselves. When you are a believer, you see the glory in doing God's will and the reward He has prepared for faithful servants.

    Even objectively speaking, I would say that even you would agree that since human behaviour is fundamentally and unarguably motivated primarily by incentive, this is a far greater deterrent to doing that which is morally wrong.

    If you need a bogeyman to behave in a moral fashion I suspect you are incapable of behaving in a moral fashion


  • #224
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Gods morality is not subject to relativism? Though it's almost always asked, Newsite what is your opinion on Deuteronomy 22:28-29 so?

    Also have you not gotten around to selling your computer (and all your other possessions) and given it to the poor yet?

    Perhaps God explicitly told him to keep his computer and provided him with free broadband so he could fight the good fight against the atheists on the internet?


  • #225
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Newsite wrote: »
    There is God's morality (which true Christians follow), and human morality (which everyone else follows.....When you are a believer, you see the glory in doing God's will and the reward He has prepared for faithful servants.
    If God instructed you to kill someone, or blow yourself up in a crowded train station, would you do it?


  • #226
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    marienbad wrote: »
    Just curious Newsite ,

    how do you decide who or what is a christian ? You have already said that you would not class the Catholic Church as christian , how do you arrive at that conclusion . And if they are not Christian what are they ? I am
    curious as on another thread you said you do not belong to any church , so I am wondering as to the how and why you can decide these things ?

    Well great question, and would be even better if more people asked it.

    The answers actually lie with Scripture and the Word of God itself!

    Just a quick verse snippet - 'salvation is of the heart'. This is a beautiful and really important verse. And what it means is that true repentance, true salvation and faith in God is 'of the heart', not merely professing 'I believe', as even the devil can do that. He knows God exists and so can say 'I believe'. That doesn't mean he believes in the way that acts to secure salvation.

    To answer specifically your question 'how do you decide' - it is not that I decide, in the sense of 'determine', but to 'ascertain'. To take a worldly example, if someone proclaimed to be a socialist, and talked about lofty topics such as 'sharing the wealth' and 'not championing material goods', and the next day you saw them spinning around in a 2011 Merc, would you take them to be a true Socialist?

    Likewise, if someone professed to be a Christian, but frequently had affairs, or other things, would you take them to be a Christian?

    The essence of faith (i.e. someone who believes, a Christian) is this:

    "He who credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true."

    So, someone who is 'born again', both professes the Word to one and all, is not ashamed of it, but rather seeks to spread it far and wide. AND they act in accordance, i.e. acting as if it were true.

    Fundamentally, you know Christians because they have changed their minds, and changed their behaviour. But this is NOT through anything they have themselves worked to achieve, rather it a free gift - Grace.

    Which, funnily enough, leads me to my favourite verse in the whole Bible, Paul's second letter to the Ephesians ('prince of the power of the air = Satan):

    "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


  • #227
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Also have you not gotten around to selling your computer (and all your other possessions) and given it to the poor yet?
    I think that bit changed was repealed.


  • #228
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Newsite wrote: »
    Human morality is flawed by its very nature. It is subject to relativism and personal interpretation.
    And religious "morality" is not subject to personal interpretation? :confused:

    You're aware that there are perhaps 30,000 differing versions of christianity out there?


  • #229
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    robindch wrote: »
    And religious "morality" is not subject to personal interpretation? :confused:

    You're aware that there are perhaps 30,000 differing versions of christianity out there?
    Yes, but only Newsite's version is the correct interpretation.


  • #230
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Newsite wrote: »
    Well great question, and would be even better if more people asked it.

    The answers actually lie with Scripture and the Word of God itself!

    Just a quick verse snippet - 'salvation is of the heart'. This is a beautiful and really important verse. And what it means is that true repentance, true salvation and faith in God is 'of the heart', not merely professing 'I believe', as even the devil can do that. He knows God exists and so can say 'I believe'. That doesn't mean he believes in the way that acts to secure salvation.

    To answer specifically your question 'how do you decide' - it is not that I decide, in the sense of 'determine', but to 'ascertain'. To take a worldly example, if someone proclaimed to be a socialist, and talked about lofty topics such as 'sharing the wealth' and 'not championing material goods', and the next day you saw them spinning around in a 2011 Merc, would you take them to be a true Socialist?

    Likewise, if someone professed to be a Christian, but frequently had affairs, or other things, would you take them to be a Christian?

    The essence of faith (i.e. someone who believes, a Christian) is this:

    "He who credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true."

    So, someone who is 'born again', both professes the Word to one and all, is not ashamed of it, but rather seeks to spread it far and wide. AND they act in accordance, i.e. acting as if it were true.

    Fundamentally, you know Christians because they have changed their minds, and changed their behaviour. But this is NOT through anything they have themselves worked to achieve, rather it a free gift - Grace.

    Which, funnily enough, leads me to my favourite verse in the whole Bible, Paul's second letter to the Ephesians ('prince of the power of the air = Satan):

    "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


    So if it such a great question Newsite why don't you answer it ? As far as I can see you have only defined what a christian is (in your opinion) , I asked how can you define WHO is a christian. Unless unlike St Thomas More you do have a window to look into others men's souls , how do you know? And not alone for individuals but for whole groups as you have already stated Catholics are not Christian ?


  • #231
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    "I'm glad you asked me that question"........ (continues preaching a preset agenda)


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  • #232
    Mistress 69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Mistress 69


    recedite wrote: »
    "I'm glad you asked me that question"........ (continues preaching a preset agenda)

    Could it be a born again thing?


  • #233
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    marienbad wrote: »
    So if it such a great question Newsite why don't you answer it ? As far as I can see you have only defined what a christian is (in your opinion) , I asked how can you define WHO is a christian. Unless unlike St Thomas More you do have a window to look into others men's souls , how do you know? And not alone for individuals but for whole groups as you have already stated Catholics are not Christian ?

    If you knew 'what' a Socialist was, could you tell 'who' a Socialist is?

    I've highlighted it all above. How do you identify anyone in terms of what they believe?


  • #234
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Newsite wrote: »
    If you knew 'what' a Socialist was, could you tell 'who' a Socialist is?

    I've highlighted it all above. How do you identify anyone in terms of what they believe?


    Absolutely not ! Newsite , a person could take the minimum wage and say,dress, and do all the right things and still be a killer in his heart !

    As I said I have no window to look into other men's souls but you seem to.

    By your own standards are you not breaking the 9th commandment ''Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour''

    and dos'nt it say ''Judge not lest ye be judged'' somewhere else ?


  • #235
    Newsite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Newsite


    marienbad wrote: »
    Absolutely not ! Newsite , a person could take the minimum wage and say,dress, and do all the right things and still be a killer in his heart !

    As I said I have no window to look into other men's souls but you seem to.

    You are just after answering your own question! If nobody has a window into other men's souls, then what earthly way could you possibly have of seeing someone's true colours, if not by their words and deeds? Do you have any other method ascertaining their true nature? Am I, as a human, any different in terms of these mechanisms?

    As I said before, 'you will know them by their fruits'.

    The answer to your question is this:

    A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. (the Lord's words)

    Meaning, if you see someone who professes to be Christian, but they willfully commit sin (e.g. murder, in your example, or adultery, or fornication, or preach false doctrine etc), then wouldn't you doubt that they were Christian to begin with?
    marienbad wrote: »
    By your own standards are you not breaking the 9th commandment ''Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour''

    How so?
    marienbad wrote: »
    and dos'nt it say ''Judge not lest ye be judged'' somewhere else ?

    That's a whole other topic, but it doesn't mean what you and the vast majority of people think it does :)


  • #236
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    More metaphor? Couldn't god inspire just ONE sentence to be written down clearly without room for interpreting it however you like to fit your own preconceptions and prejudices?


  • #237
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sarky wrote: »
    Couldn't god inspire just ONE sentence to be written down clearly without room for interpreting it however you like
    Reading this thread and the other one, John 11:35 springs unaccountably to mind:
    John 11:35 wrote:
    Jesus wept.


  • #238
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Is that actual weeping?Was that actual weeping though? Or is it a poetic way of saying "Shoot the gays"?


  • #239
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Sarky wrote: »
    Is that actual weeping?Was that actual weeping though? Or is it a poetic way of saying "Shoot the gays"?

    It's obviously talking about abortion!


  • #240
    mascaput
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭mascaput


    recedite wrote: »
    Yes, AIDs often starts in the bottom alright.

    I may do indeed...but sometimes it's by intravenous drug use or straight sex.....;)


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  • #241
    mascaput
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭mascaput


    Sarky wrote: »
    More metaphor? Couldn't god inspire just ONE sentence to be written down clearly without room for interpreting it however you like to fit your own preconceptions and prejudices?

    Indeed it would be nice for a change, "but that would be a euchemenical matter" LINK


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