More Student Protests Over Fees? Hmph.

The Volt · 13-11-2011 11:30PM

I disagree with the notion that 3rd level education is something that should be a person's choice whether to pay for it or not. The last few decades have seen a shift from almost full employment with manual labour being prominent. There has been a shift in what kind of a workforce is needed now and this has not been catered for yet.

It's very possible that at some point in the future every job will require some form on 3rd level education. I'll never accept that the accumulation of knowledge should be commodified, especially when it's such a necessity in the 21st century.

Denerick · 13-11-2011 11:41PM

I think college should be available to everybody who wishes to go. I think the British have devised the best and most equitable system; you start paying back your fee's once you start earning over a certain wage. People need to stop being so childish about student debts; its unfortunate people will start off in the working world with large debts, but build a bridge and get over it. Third level education is expensive and it is fundamentally wrong to expect carpenters and binmen to pay a subsidy (ie, income tax) in order for privileged members of the middle class to get a three/four year free ride. People need to grow up.

As it stands, too many people go to college and there are too many junk courses that are effectively pointless. Instead of doing a three year generic business course, why not do a six month internship with a real company who will teach you tangible skills? Speaking as someone who works in a large Irish companies head office, with no formal education in business or economics, I'm baffled by the idea that people will waste three years of their lives and their minds doing something so innately pointless. I studied history for four years, which in a pure business sense was pointless but I'm a more curious and intellectually aware person because of it. Fifty years ago the captains of industry had formal education in the arts, law and economics. These generic business courses are eating at the heart and the soul of higher education and robbing it of its true purpose; to expand the minds of autonomous individuals and to foster intellectual curiosity and independence of thought.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 09:20AM

JustinDee wrote: »

If you're in Maynooth, you can also look for work in Dublin. Easy to get back from by bus, Nitelink or train in around 50 mins tops if working late.

I dunno what it was like in your day but as someone who's been working in bars and retail for the past 5 years, your ideas are unrealistic for nowadays.

You'd be hard pressed to find a job bartending or waitering when you're 50 minutes away or so. These jobs require flexibility: when things are busy, the bar needs you there ASAP after they call you in, not waiting for an hour because you need to get the bus in from Maynooth to Dublin. Likewise for the waiters in my workplace: when working split shifts you'll find it tricky to show any degree of flexiblity when you have to commute for a minimum wage job.
There is retail of course but that's a hell of a lot harder if you're working student hours: not many places are open at night unless you're lucky and get a job in a 24 hour shop.

And of course, that's ignoring the fact that unemployment is 14%, so telling someone to 'get a job' is oversimplified and out of touch.

RichardAnd · 14-11-2011 10:00AM

What is the problem people in the country have with protest? Every second thread started here is giving out about something yet anyone who protests seems to be met with apathy and ridicule. That to me is the mark of a broken people.

Now, I happen to believe that student fees need to be looked at in some manner. The current system is inefficient and could do with an over haul. However, a certain minister signed a promise not to raise fees or reduce grants during the election campaign and the government rescinding on that promise is as fine a reason to protest as any that could be had. They lied and thus, should be held to task.

What the naysayers should grasp is that if you don't stand up for yourself, you will be beaten down at every turn.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 14-11-2011 10:12AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

What is the problem people in the country have with protest? Every second thread started here is giving out about something yet anyone who protests seems to be met with apathy and ridicule. That to me is the mark of a broken people.

Now, I happen to believe that student fees need to be looked at in some manner. The current system is inefficient and could do with an over haul. However, a certain minister signed a promise not to raise fees or reduce grants during the election campaign and the government rescinding on that promise is as fine a reason to protest as any that could be had. They lied and thus, should be held to task.

What the naysayers should grasp is that if you don't stand up for yourself, you will be beaten down at every turn.

Nobody has a problem with protesting. It's protesting for unrealistic aims thats annoying, and denying reality as a result.

Also, it's not about holding Labour to task (maybe for some but definatly not the majority). Look at the headline for this FB page made by the DCUSU, nothing about what labour said all about simply "stopping fees" and scaremongering about "Can you afford to pay!!! :O "

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 11:21AM

Lockstep wrote: »

I dunno what it was like in your day but as someone who's been working in bars and retail for the past 5 years, your ideas are unrealistic for nowadays.

You'd be hard pressed to find a job bartending or waitering when you're 50 minutes away or so. These jobs require flexibility: when things are busy, the bar needs you there ASAP after they call you in, not waiting for an hour because you need to get the bus in from Maynooth to Dublin. Likewise for the waiters in my workplace: when working split shifts you'll find it tricky to show any degree of flexiblity when you have to commute for a minimum wage job

I managed it myself during a time of higher unemployment and in relative terms, more expensive fees...not to mention the far more scant bus and rail timetable in comparison to today's (waiting an hour indeed...:rolleyes:)

Lockstep wrote: »

And of course, that's ignoring the fact that unemployment is 14%, so telling someone to 'get a job' is oversimplified and out of touch.

Oh peace.
Try to get a job. Many others before have managed so there is no reason why nobody else can.
Takes hard yakka to get through these days. Sitting on your keyster or whining and moaning a melodramatic woe-is-me/gimme-what-I-want sook on the streets will achieve very very little.

Dan_Solo · 14-11-2011 11:28AM

JustinDee wrote: »

Oh peace.
Try to get a job. Many others before have managed so there is no reason why nobody else can.

Ah right, everybody who's unemployed simply hasn't bothered to look for a job have they? Because you got one there's plenty to go round. No shortage of jobs at all. Lazy feckers.
Care to go down the dole office and try that advice out?:D

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 11:35AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah right, everybody who's unemployed simply hasn't bothered to look for a job have they? Because you got one there's plenty to go round. No shortage of jobs at all. Lazy feckers.
Care to go down the dole office and try that advice out?:D

Its safe to generalise that there is a large proportion of students in Maynooth who haven't bothered but choose to spend their grant money on the p*ss in the students union bar-ex, for example.
I know two myself who live on my street and do exactly this. Then come exam time, they flunk in time for another trip to London or Germany over summer then back home in time for repeats then more of the same. Rinse and repeat.

Obviously you haven't tried because you've automatically cut Dublin out of the equation. Some jobs in Arc at Liffey Valley were on the go til recently. One went to a niece of mine who happens to be a school leaver with zip all experience.

Dan_Solo · 14-11-2011 11:37AM

JustinDee wrote: »

Its safe to generalise

Stopped there. It's equally safe to generalise about posters like you then I guess.

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 12:07PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Stopped there. It's equally safe to generalise about posters like you then I guess.

Of course you stopped there. It suits you to do so.
You might think you're in exceptional circumstances but guess what, you're actually not. Times have been worse and people just got on with it, instead of sitting on hands, waiting for perceived entitlements to land on their lap.

Students in Maynooth living on "less than €1 a day" and travel to a job outside the village costing "90%" of income indeed. That would explain the packed houses on bar-ex nights wouldn't it?

Dan_Solo · 14-11-2011 01:28PM

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course you stopped there. It suits you to do so.

It always suits me not to listen to people who aren't even clever enough to avoid admitting they are generalising.
Now you're saying because X% of students have beer money then 100% of students have no financial difficulties?
Keep 'em coming mate.

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 01:52PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It always suits me not to listen to people who aren't even clever enough to avoid admitting they are generalising.
Now you're saying because X% of students have beer money then 100% of students have no financial difficulties?
Keep 'em coming mate.

It was you who went with the melodramatic boo-hoos about students being on "less than €1 a day" and that "90%" of any earnings in working aside would be lost in travel expenses if working in town.

No need to keep making out that the current situation for students economy-wise is unique. It most certainly isn't.
Anyone who thinks they're owed work on their doorstep and a free third-level education complete with grant money to party away is thoroughly misguided in my own humble opinion.

brendanL · 14-11-2011 03:17PM

JustinDee wrote: »

It was you who went with the melodramatic boo-hoos about students being on "less than €1 a day" and that "90%" of any earnings in working aside would be lost in travel expenses if working in town.

No need to keep making out that the current situation for students economy-wise is unique. It most certainly isn't.
Anyone who thinks they're owed work on their doorstep and a free third-level education complete with grant money to party away is thoroughly misguided in my own humble opinion.

If things were harder it would make sense... but why can someone who isn't working and isn't attending college have a much easier life then students as they are on job seekers sitting on their arse at home. Why cut those that improve themselves over those that don't even try to re-skill themselves for a changing economy.

Because job seekers vote and know their local td very well. Students on the other hand don't vote enough.

Easy target being abused.

I know there are those on back to education even being cut... why would you do that.. the choice for them now is to drop out of our course after 2 years and go back to being paid to sit on the couch. That's just not a system that works.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 03:29PM

JustinDee wrote: »

I managed it myself during a time of higher unemployment and in relative terms, more expensive fees...not to mention the far more scant bus and rail timetable in comparison to today's (waiting an hour indeed...:rolleyes:)

So because things were one way back in The Day, it must automatically correlate to nowadays?
I dunno what you worked as but speaking as someone who's working in the bartending sector, flexibility is a key component nowadays. Bars and restaraunts get busy with little or no notice so staff are needed to come in with very little notice. When that happens, they're needed ASAP, not waiting for the next Nitelink and then spending another 50minutes getting to work.
And yes waiting for an hour. The 50 minutes you yourself mentioned along with the conservative estimate of waiting 10minutes for a bus to come in. Personally, I sometimes have to wait over an hour for a bus.

JustinDee wrote: »

Oh peace.
Try to get a job. Many others before have managed so there is no reason why nobody else can.
Takes hard yakka to get through these days. Sitting on your keyster or whining and moaning a melodramatic woe-is-me/gimme-what-I-want sook on the streets will achieve very very little.

I have a job and I'm very fortunate to have it. Not everyone is though and every week, CVs come in with people asking for work. I remember when I was in the same boat and it wasn't pretty. It took a ****load of work, effort and luck. Being someone whose gone through it, I appreciate how hard it is. You clearly don't with your 'let them eat cake' platitudes.

Unemployment has skyrocketed recently. This isn't from people wanting to go on the dole but the lack of employment. Unless you think that an extra 10% just got lazy in 2008 and joined the dole en masse.

Piss-poor assumption on your part though: "He thinks it's hard to get a job, therefore he must be unemployed and spending his time on the computer.

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 03:41PM

Lockstep wrote: »

So because things were one way back in The Day, it must automatically correlate to nowadays?
I dunno what you worked as but speaking as someone who's working in the bartending sector, flexibility is a key component nowadays. Bars and restaraunts get busy with little or no notice so staff are needed to come in with very little notice. When that happens, they're needed ASAP, not waiting for the next Nitelink and then spending another 50minutes getting to work.
And yes waiting for an hour. The 50 minutes you yourself mentioned along with the conservative estimate of waiting 10minutes for a bus to come in. Personally, I sometimes have to wait over an hour for a bus

I've never had to wait an hour for a bus from Maynooth to town or town to Maynooth. Not once. Nor a train.
I worked in a bar in Temple Bar and also in a gym on Talbot St, by the way. I'm fully aware how the bar/restaurant trade works, thanks. Not quite as ER-crazy as you claim, I might add.

Lockstep wrote: »

I have a job and I'm very fortunate to have it. Not everyone is though and every week, CVs come in with people asking for work. I remember when I was in the same boat and it wasn't pretty. It took a ****load of work, effort and luck. Being someone whose gone through it, I appreciate how hard it is. You clearly don't with your 'let them eat cake' platitudes

Of course I appreciate how hard it is because I went through similar circumstances.

Lockstep wrote: »

Unemployment has skyrocketed recently. This isn't from people wanting to go on the dole but the lack of employment. Unless you think that an extra 10% just got lazy in 2008 and joined the dole en masse

If you're going to bring up unemployment as a factor then don't be surprised if compared to similar times previous. I pointed out already how high it was when I graduated and when I started my third-level education. It was in fact worse then as was net migration.

Lockstep wrote: »

Piss-poor assumption on your part though: "He thinks it's hard to get a job, therefore he must be unemployed and spending his time on the computer.

I'm not the only presumptuous one posting. You yourself just said I didn't appreciate how tough things were despite my having been there myself.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 03:54PM

JustinDee wrote: »

I've never had to wait an hour for a bus from Maynooth to town or town to Maynooth. Not once. Nor a train.
I worked in a bar in Temple Bar and also in a gym on Talbot St, by the way. I'm fully aware how the bar/restaurant trade works, thanks. Not quite as ER-crazy as you claim, I might add.

You said yourself that it can take 50 minutes to get to town from Maynooth (ignoring the time spent waiting for a train or bus so I factored in a generous 10m waiting time for the bus/train to leave)

And no, you clearly don't get how the bar/restaurant trade works nowadays, or at least, nowhere busy.
Would you hire someone who lives an hour away (ignoring their unavailability for split shifts) knowing that you can't call them into work at short notice when it gets busy?
I know I wouldn't and my employer doesn't either.

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course I appreciate how hard it is because I went through similar circumstances.

Many years ago. Your logic seems to be "I went through tough times years ago, therefore I know all about how hard it is today".
My great great great grandfather went through difficulties during the Irish Famine. That doesn't mean he'd know or understand the difficulties affecting people nowadays.

JustinDee wrote: »

If you're going to bring up unemployment as a factor then don't be surprised if compared to similar times previous. I pointed out already how high it was when I graduated and when I started my third-level education. It was in fact worse then as was net migration.

You got a job while studying. So did I. Congratulations.
Sadly, the unemployment levels show that this isn't an option for many people.
Your logic seems to be "If I did it, so can they". That's a poor claim to make given the vastly different circumstances around.
Also, private debt wasn't as bad in those days so waving the "unemployment and emigration were worse back then" card isn't equatable.

JustinDee wrote: »

I'm not the only presumptuous one posting. You yourself just said I didn't appreciate how tough things were despite my having been there myself.

You were there yourself many years ago. Equating this to nowadays (ignoring the way that business has changed if you really did work in a bar) is utterly disingenuous.
Like I said, your ideas are unrealistic for nowadays. They might have been gospel truth back when you were doing it, I dunno, I wasn't studying in university then. But I am now and your claims are irrelevent for modern times.

Godge · 14-11-2011 03:56PM

JustinDee wrote: »

Unemployment rate the year I started University (1988) was according to the CSO, The Economist archives and The Irish Times more than 16%. In 1992 when I graduated it was around 15.5%.
Emigration was also very high. I myself left in '92 to live abroad but came back in 2005.
As for work, pubs and restaurants for example still opened "AROUND COLLEGE HOURS". In fact, thats when they were actually busiest, even in economic climes like then and now.

If you look hard enough, there are jobs in bars and fast-food restaurants to be had. They suit students as the hours and pay would not be high enough to encourage somebody off social welfare.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 03:59PM

Godge wrote: »

If you look hard enough, there are jobs in bars and fast-food restaurants to be had. They suit students as the hours and pay would not be high enough to encourage somebody off social welfare.

Depends where you are really. None of the fast food outlets were hiring when I was looking for work and bartending jobs were very thin on the ground (although I eventually got one)

Jobs do exist but they're very hard to get, especially nowadays.
Yes students still need to look for work but to assume that they will all be able to get one is pretty silly.

Godge · 14-11-2011 04:00PM

Lockstep wrote: »

You said yourself that it can take 50 minutes to get to town from Maynooth (ignoring the time spent waiting for a train or bus so I factored in a generous 10m waiting time for the bus/train to leave)

Over 40 trains a day from Maynooth to Connolly, journey time about 40 mins. Not bad, certainly workable for a job in town.

Godge · 14-11-2011 04:02PM

Lockstep wrote: »

Depends where you are really. None of the fast food outlets were hiring when I was looking for work and bartending jobs were very thin on the ground (although I eventually got one)

Jobs do exist but they're very hard to get, especially nowadays.
Yes students still need to look for work but to assume that they will all be able to get one is pretty silly.

All over Dublin city centre, know many students who have got jobs in the last year.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 04:02PM

Godge wrote: »

Over 40 trains a day from Maynooth to Connolly, journey time about 40 mins. Not bad, certainly workable for a job in town.

Workable for a job with regular hours. If you're in the hospitality industry, not very feasible, unless your employer has a great knack for predicting how many workers he'll need on any one night.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 04:03PM

Godge wrote: »

All over Dublin city centre, know many students who have got jobs in the last year.

In Galway? Yes. And they're lucky ones. I also know many who are still trying and failing to find work.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 14-11-2011 04:31PM

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=304321116262360&notif_t=event_invite

Sums it all up for me tbh

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 04:54PM

Lockstep wrote: »

You said yourself that it can take 50 minutes to get to town from Maynooth (ignoring the time spent waiting for a train or bus so I factored in a generous 10m waiting time for the bus/train to leave)

You said waiting for a bus took 50 minutes to an hour. Journey to town takes that amount of time. Train takes even less. And there are plenty in schedules. Even private buses on plentiful routes take student discounts.

Lockstep wrote: »

And no, you clearly don't get how the bar/restaurant trade works nowadays, or at least, nowhere busy.
Would you hire someone who lives an hour away (ignoring their unavailability for split shifts) knowing that you can't call them into work at short notice when it gets busy?
I know I wouldn't and my employer doesn't either

Sorry but I do "get it". Guess what. Not every business runs in the manner you keep going on about.

Lockstep wrote: »

Many years ago. Your logic seems to be "I went through tough times years ago, therefore I know all about how hard it is today".
My great great great grandfather went through difficulties during the Irish Famine. That doesn't mean he'd know or understand the difficulties affecting people nowadays

Now you're being obtuse and quite silly. The late 1800s and the late 1980s are hardly a comparison as relevant as the 1980s are to today.

Lockstep wrote: »

You got a job while studying. So did I. Congratulations.
Sadly, the unemployment levels show that this isn't an option for many people

Oh for gods sake. Quit wafting on about unemployment levels if you're going to ignore previous examples. Stop being so subjective.

Lockstep wrote: »

Your logic seems to be "If I did it, so can they". That's a poor claim to make given the vastly different circumstances around

They are not vastly different circumstances. High unemployment, high emigration, the fallout from a broken up USSR and Eastern Bloc, woeful political outlook, EC (now EU) in trouble, GATT talks failing, terrorism in Ireland and UK, unstable Middle East tipping oil/gas prices etc etc.

Lockstep wrote: »

Also, private debt wasn't as bad in those days so waving the "unemployment and emigration were worse back then" card isn't equatable

Again with the subjectivity? How is "private debt" different to then for a student? Numerically different. Relevant to standard of living it was even worse. I'll bet, if a student, you weren't even born. I remember full well how it was.

Lockstep wrote: »

You were there yourself many years ago. Equating this to nowadays (ignoring the way that business has changed if you really did work in a bar) is utterly disingenuous

No, it isn't. Why? See previous line.

Lockstep wrote: »

Like I said, your ideas are unrealistic for nowadays. They might have been gospel truth back when you were doing it, I dunno, I wasn't studying in university then. But I am now and your claims are irrelevent for modern times.

The only "gospel truth" I'm talking about is not sitting on one's buster brown, demanding this and that then moaning like a sook.
I know you weren't in university then. You were more than likely not even born.

JustinDee · 14-11-2011 04:57PM

Lockstep wrote: »

In Galway? Yes. And they're lucky ones. I also know many who are still trying and failing to find work.

And I know some in Maynooth who don't bother.

There ya go.

Lockstep · 14-11-2011 07:01PM

JustinDee wrote: »

You said waiting for a bus took 50 minutes to an hour. Journey to town takes that amount of time. Train takes even less. And there are plenty in schedules. Even private buses on plentiful routes take student discounts.

My post clearly stated [

when things are busy, the bar needs you there ASAP after they call you in, not waiting for an hour because you need to get the bus in from Maynooth to Dublin.

They'd be waiting for you for an hour or so. Whether thats 20 minutes of you waiting for the bus and 40 minutes for you to get to work once on the bus is irrelevent. Either way, they're waiting an hour for you to show up which is no good when the bar is busy.
Buses can take an hour where I live but then again, I live in Galway, not Maynooth.

JustinDee wrote: »

Sorry but I do "get it". Guess what. Not every business runs in the manner you keep going on about.

Then how on earth do they run?
If you were a bartender yourself you'd know how vulnerable to boom and bust nights bars are. One night it might be packed to the gills another it will be empty. It's tough to predict which it will be requiring flexible staff who are willing to come in on short notice when it's busy and to leave early when it's quiet.
How did your bar run without having excess staff hanging around with nothing to do (wasting money) or too few staff to cope with demand (wasting money as customers leave to bars where they can get served faster)?

JustinDee wrote: »

Now you're being obtuse and quite silly. The late 1800s and the late 1980s are hardly a comparison as relevant as the 1980s are to today.

Well I was using hyperbole

My point is that you can't take two different timeframes and act they are somehow comparable. Just as the 80s isn't comparable with nowadays.

JustinDee wrote: »

Oh for gods sake. Quit wafting on about unemployment levels if you're going to ignore previous examples. Stop being so subjective.

Your only example seems to be that you found a job and therefore everyone can. We're in double-digit unemployment. You and me finding jobs really isn't comparable to other students.

They are not vastly different circumstances. High unemployment, high emigration, the fallout from a broken up USSR and Eastern Bloc, woeful political outlook, EC (now EU) in trouble, GATT talks failing, terrorism in Ireland and UK, unstable Middle East tipping oil/gas prices etc etc.

Very different circumstances altogether

JustinDee wrote: »

Again with the subjectivity? How is "private debt" different to then for a student? Numerically different. Relevant to standard of living it was even worse. I'll bet, if a student, you weren't even born. I remember full well how it was.

As private debt impacts on the economy as a whole. In 2008, our household debt was the highest in the developed world and in 2009 our external debt was over 2 trillion.
I'm glad you remember how bad it was but one person's memory does not make it relevent. If I find one person who thinks that the 1950s was a time of economic growth does that make it so?

JustinDee wrote: »

No, it isn't. Why? See previous line.

Yes, it is. Why? See previous line.

JustinDee wrote: »

The only "gospel truth" I'm talking about is not sitting on one's buster brown, demanding this and that then moaning like a sook.
I know you weren't in university then. You were more than likely not even born.

That's great. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think people should look for work.
The difference is, you seem to think that the fact you found employment means that everyone should be able to.
I might not have been in university in the 80s, although I was born then (I'm in my early 20s).
Although the fact you have to resort to "You probably weren't born then" seems to show an acceptance that you lack other sources.

Sulmac · 15-11-2011 01:51AM

Seems Quinn 'favours' increasing the registration fee, rather than actually doing anything to reform the system:

Quinn favours increase in €2,000 student fee

SEÁN FLYNN, Education Editor

Tue, Nov 15, 2011

MINISTER FOR Education Ruairí Quinn favours an increase in the €2,000 student contribution charge rather than the return of college fees, but he has still to make a final decision on the issue.

At Cabinet discussions this week on budget cutbacks, education sources say Mr Quinn was inclined towards a series of increases in the student contribution charge over several years.

But other options, including the return of college fees averaging €5,000 per year and a student loan/graduate tax scheme, remain under consideration.

Mr Quinn is under intense pressure from Labour backbenchers and from party grassroots on the issue. He is also under pressure from the Union of Students in Ireland (USI), whose “Stop Fees” march is expected to attract more than 20,000 to Dublin tomorrow.

In the run-up to the election, Mr Quinn signed a USI pledge that fees would not return. But he has refused to dismiss their reintroduction since taking office.

The Minister is pursuing a sustainable funding base for the higher-education sector which needs an extra €500 million annually to cope with a projected 30 per cent increase in admissions over the next 10 years.

In September the student contribution charge (formerly the student registration charge) increased from €1,500 to €2,000. While the increase drew strong protests from students and parents, it generated only about €55 million in gross additional revenue for colleges.

The State spends about €1.1 billion a year on higher education.

Two years ago a report prepared for the last government conceded that increases in the student contribution charge would “raise affordability issues for some students”.

It also stated that higher student fees would affect participation levels at third level. This, it noted, raised “significant wider social and economic issues”.

Official figures show that in 2008 28 per cent of full-time undergraduates came from families with gross incomes of more than €80,000. Some 15 per cent came from families with a gross income of more than €100,000.

Sources also say that post-graduate grants will be “scaled back” in the budget but they will not be abolished. More than 3,500 students qualify for research grants to a maximum of about €5,000. Many also qualify for maintenance grants of up to €6,000. Eligibility is based on the income of their parents even if the student is over 21. This applies unless the applicant has been out of full-time education for three years or more.

The National Parents council (post primary) said is was “dismayed that the reintroduction of college fees” is back on the table. Jackie O’Callaghan said it was “disheartening” that a reforming education minister like Mr Quinn was considering the return of fees.

© 2011 The Irish Times

This would be far more inequitable than any student loan/graduate tax system would be, arguably.

JustinDee · 15-11-2011 09:20AM

Lockstep wrote: »

My post clearly stated:
They'd be waiting for you for an hour or so. Whether thats 20 minutes of you waiting for the bus and 40 minutes for you to get to work once on the bus is irrelevent. Either way, they're waiting an hour for you to show up which is no good when the bar is busy.
Buses can take an hour where I live but then again, I live in Galway, not Maynooth

Yeah, you're right. If the job can't be at your doorstep, whats the flippin' point of applying?
There person who was insisting that Dublin was a non-runner because of the likes of cost (ie. utter rubbish) ex-Maynooth.

Lockstep wrote: »

Then how on earth do they run?
If you were a bartender yourself you'd know how vulnerable to boom and bust nights bars are. One night it might be packed to the gills another it will be empty. It's tough to predict which it will be requiring flexible staff who are willing to come in on short notice when it's busy and to leave early when it's quiet

How did your bar run without having excess staff hanging around with nothing to do (wasting money) or too few staff to cope with demand (wasting money as customers leave to bars where they can get served faster)?

Its almost as if you are trying desperately to find an excuse...
I know how a bar or restaurant runs. I worked in enough...and from a distance.

Lockstep wrote: »

Well I was using hyperbole
My point is that you can't take two different timeframes and act they are somehow comparable. Just as the 80s isn't comparable with nowadays

Of course it is.

Lockstep wrote: »

Your only example seems to be that you found a job and therefore everyone can. We're in double-digit unemployment. You and me finding jobs really isn't comparable to other students

Unemployment was worse when I did it.

Lockstep wrote: »

Very different circumstances altogether

Debt is the only factor in the current situation, is it? I hope you're not studying Economics and/or Politics.

Lockstep wrote: »

I'm glad you remember how bad it was but one person's memory does not make it relevent. If I find one person who thinks that the 1950s was a time of economic growth does that make it so?

It doesn't make it relevant to you, because it doesn't suit your view which as it happens is second-hand.

Lockstep wrote: »

That's great. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think people should look for work

Not in Maynooth you wouldn't. Thats part of my point.

Lockstep wrote: »

The difference is, you seem to think that the fact you found employment means that everyone should be able to

Sitting on hands and moaning about there being no work when there is, and I would have found things much harder to do. I found work in times when there was bugger all because I had to, as did many I went to University with no grant to p*ss away.

Lockstep wrote: »

I might not have been in university in the 80s, although I was born then (I'm in my early 20s)

Meaning? As a two or three year old your opinion was formed on the matter?

Lockstep wrote: »

Although the fact you have to resort to "You probably weren't born then" seems to show an acceptance that you lack other sources.

Experience doesn't count? I would have thought that it would. I and the rest of Ireland must have been imagining it.
Without being melodramatic about this, I lived it. The nearest you've got is actually Reeling In The Years and what you choose to read on the internet.

I know its a big issue to students when. Thing is that when they're done with the third-level education, they tend to not give a stuff about it anymore and see it from a different perspective. Thats where the subjectivity of it all rears it head again.
Sånn er livet.

Lockstep · 15-11-2011 10:00AM

JustinDee wrote: »

Yeah, you're right. If the job can't be at your doorstep, whats the flippin' point of applying?
There person who was insisting that Dublin was a non-runner because of the likes of cost (ie. utter rubbish) ex-Maynooth.

The job doesn't need to be on the doorstep. It does however, need to be viable. If a student can get a job in a 24 hour shop in Dublin, sound. They'll have regular hours and their boss knows they can plan around it.
Barwork isn't like this as the nature of the business changes so quickly, ditto for restaurants. Acting like students can all find work here is highly disingenous.

JustinDee wrote: »

Its almost as if you are trying desperately to find an excuse...
I know how a bar or restaurant runs. I worked in enough...and from a distance.

Yes, you keep saying you know how bars and restaurants run.
However, you didn't answer my question: how did they run?
Every bar I've worked in (and there's been quite a few) has had on-call staff due the nature of the business. How did yours function unless it was a bar so sleepy it only ever needed one or two bartenders?

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course it is.

No it isn't.

JustinDee wrote: »

Unemployment was worse when I did it.

So? You keep bringing this up. Like I said, you found a job. Fair play to you. There are always going to be people who find jobs but to act like this is somehow representative is bogus.
Johnny found work during the great depression. Therefore everyone should have been able to. QED.
See the problem with that logic?

JustinDee wrote: »

Debt is the only factor in the current situation, is it? I hope you're not studying Economics and/or Politics.

Debt is a pretty colossal factor, given the scale of public and private debt (aside from effects like crowding out) it means the necessary servicing of the debt which isn't exactly healthy for the economy.
There are of course other factors like emigration which is worse than the 80s as well as the increased tendency for emigrants to be highly skilled which puts even more pressure on the economy.

JustinDee wrote: »

It doesn't make it relevant to you, because it doesn't suit your view which as it happens is second-hand.

No, because the emperical data doesn't match your claims.
You were in college yourself, if you wrote a diatribe without any sources or evidence and your own conjecture, you'd fail. Likewise, your claims here are unsubstantiated and at odds with the sources I'm producing.

JustinDee wrote: »

Not in Maynooth you wouldn't. Thats part of my point.

There are significant numbers of people in Maynooth who don't think people should have to work? Ever?

JustinDee wrote: »

Sitting on hands and moaning about there being no work when there is, and I would have found things much harder to do. I found work in times when there was bugger all because I had to, as did many I went to University with no grant to p*ss away.

Once again, your argument boils down to "I found work so therefore anyone can".
Do you really believe this?

JustinDee wrote: »

Meaning? As a two or three year old your opinion was formed on the matter?

Ah now, no need to get testy. You said I probably wasn't even born there, just correcting you on your assumptions (again).

JustinDee wrote: »

Experience doesn't count? I would have thought that it would. I and the rest of Ireland must have been imagining it.
Without being melodramatic about this, I lived it. The nearest you've got is actually Reeling In The Years and what you choose to read on the internet.

No, one person's experience is not representative.
Let me put it this way: you have two ways of looking at WWII. One by one dude who just happened to live during the 1940s, the other by historical data. Which would you choose to believe?
Using newspapers as evidence is a far better gauge than the rantings of some randomer in the internet. But you dismiss the Irish Times as something I 'choose to read on the internet'.
Yes you lived it, but that seems to be the only proof you have as opposed to my own empirical evidence. If your experiences are so valid you should have no problem finding sources that back up your claims.

JustinDee wrote: »

I know its a big issue to students when. Thing is that when they're done with the third-level education, they tend to not give a stuff about it anymore and see it from a different perspective. Thats where the subjectivity of it all rears it head again.
Sånn er livet.

What is? Student employment?

JustinDee · 15-11-2011 11:23AM

Lockstep wrote: »

The job doesn't need to be on the doorstep. It does however, need to be viable. If a student can get a job in a 24 hour shop in Dublin, sound. They'll have regular hours and their boss knows they can plan around it.
Barwork isn't like this as the nature of the business changes so quickly, ditto for restaurants. Acting like students can all find work here is highly disingenous

It isn't "disingenous" in the slightest.

Lockstep wrote: »

Yes, you keep saying you know how bars and restaurants run.
However, you didn't answer my question: how did they run?
Every bar I've worked in (and there's been quite a few) has had on-call staff due the nature of the business. How did yours function unless it was a bar so sleepy it only ever needed one or two bartenders?

It always staffed well. More staff on weekends and holidays. Less on a wednesday or a tuesday with management also serving.
This was a busy city centre bar, by the way and still is.

Lockstep wrote: »

So? You keep bringing this up. Like I said, you found a job. Fair play to you. There are always going to be people who find jobs but to act like this is somehow representative is bogus.
Johnny found work during the great depression. Therefore everyone should have been able to. QED.
See the problem with that logic?

You keep talking like the late '80s/early '90s are a different era in Ireland's history. They aren't.

Lockstep wrote: »

Debt is a pretty colossal factor, given the scale of public and private debt (aside from effects like crowding out) it means the necessary servicing of the debt which isn't exactly healthy for the economy.
There are of course other factors like emigration which is worse than the 80s as well as the increased tendency for emigrants to be highly skilled which puts even more pressure on the economy

According to the CSO website, net migration in 1988 was -41,000, in 1989 was -43,000. In 2011, it is recorded at -31,000. In 1989 there were 70,600 emigrants and in 2011, there were 76,000. You going to argue over that amount?

Lockstep wrote: »

No, because the emperical data doesn't match your claims.
You were in college yourself, if you wrote a diatribe without any sources or evidence and your own conjecture, you'd fail. Likewise, your claims here are unsubstantiated and at odds with the sources I'm producing

This isn't college, kiddo. My "claims" aren't unsubstantiated at all. They're from my experience. It didn't all happen in an isolated time-capsule either. Just like your examples of students who apparently can't get work in Galway actually.

Lockstep wrote: »

No, one person's experience is not representative.
Let me put it this way: you have two ways of looking at WWII. One by one dude who just happened to live during the 1940s, the other by historical data. Which would you choose to believe?
Using newspapers as evidence is a far better gauge than the rantings of some randomer in the internet. But you dismiss the Irish Times as something I 'choose to read on the internet'.
Yes you lived it, but that seems to be the only proof you have as opposed to my own empirical evidence. If your experiences are so valid you should have no problem finding sources that back up your claims

Don't bother with the moral relativist approach. Thats not what I'm doing. Distancing subjectively a very recent time in the economic cycle is all very convenient but it doesn't change a thing.

Lockstep wrote: »

What is? Student employment?

No. Melodramatic 'outrage' about grant decreases, abolishment or the gall of having to actually pay for third-level education.

More Student Protests Over Fees? Hmph.

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