What ARE you willing to have cut?

DualFrontDiscs · 14-11-2011 12:14AM

First:

All state incomes should be removed from the tax net.

Public/ civil servants don't really pay income tax. For example, let's say you're paid €30K per annum and pay €10k in tax. Well you're paying the €10k back to the people who gave you the €30k in the first place.

So let's just give public/ civil servants the €20k and that stops the argument straightaway that they pay tax like the private sector.

For sure, there are other taxes, VAT, other incomes, etc, but public and civil servants don't really pay income tax. So let's stop pretending they do.

This is absolutely not a criticism of the public/ civil servant sector, it's just the way I see it.

Secondly, all public/ civil servants with a mortgage should have an option to 'migrate' their mortgage to a state held mortgage entity, with a v. low interest rate, extended terms, etc. As a state employee, you have favorable employment terms, etc.....

Finally, cut all public/ civil servant salaries by 20%. If you've a mortgage, you've benefited from point two above. If you don't have a mortgage, well done!

Moral hazard should be addressed such that in the main, the % reduction in salary is equal or greater to the benefit of the mortgage restructure.

20% reduction in the salary of the public/ civil servant sector would presumably help

DFD.

Ace2007 · 14-11-2011 12:17AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

Pensioners need to take a huge cut in this budget, they have gotten away without been touched for too long now, let them whinge all they want.

Pension: €220 p/w
Free electricity units
Free fuel
Free travel
Free household upgrades.
And lots of other little things like free passports, driving licenses, etc.

i know for a fact not all get the same amount,
secondly it's a certain about of gas or electricity, not both,

you say that get free driving licenses, an OAP with 20+ years expericne will probably be paying alot more in car insurance than someone with 5 years experience in their 30's.

if you want to make huge cuts, you have to have a level playing field. childrens' allowance is the biggest joke, most children never see it, it should be either

a) scrapped or
b) paid out in vouchers

oppenheimer1 · 14-11-2011 12:43AM

I have to laugh at some of the acceptable cuts being proposed here. For example reducing politicians pay and allowance is very small beer compared with what needs to be saved. I'm not saying that their pay and allowances shouldn't be looked at, but the budget adjustment is in the order of billions not millions. Cutting politicians pay leads to two things btw. It reduces the quality of candidates and it aids corruption.

In order to save billions and make a stab at genuine reform, we need to cut pay in the public service. The reason our health service is the way it is is not because we don't spend enough on it but that we give the existing staff far too much money. Nurses and in particular consultants need to have their pay brought back into line with the real world. A small reform also would be to force medical students as part of the Irish medical degree programme to work in Irish hospitals after they graduate. The state currently spends the guts of €125k on each medical student over the course of their time in Uni, then they feck off to other countries despite being needed here.

Education too is in need of serious reform. If I was education minister, the first thing to go would be the holidays. Literacy and numeracy rates are slipping and its clear children need more time in the classroom. I would introduce computer programming and summer schools also. Teachers at the moment have very generous pay and allowances and quite frankly they don't earn or deserve them.

I would merge most of the departments and bring them all under the one umbrella organisation. Certain moves have been made in this direction, but it is crazy the amount of duplication that goes on, human resources and payroll for example.

Social welfare entitlements also need to be examined, with the likes of the free travel passes and rent allowance being two I would see as being ripe for the chop.

Most of my proposals are not politically possible, and the chances of getting cuts like these through are slim to non-existant. Genuine reform is needed in all these areas and this crisis should not be wasted. The government has a real chance to take on the vested interests because it should be able to get the people on-side

galwayrush · 14-11-2011 12:45AM

I'll cut my poneytail for 1 million cash.

Cill Dara Abu · 14-11-2011 12:48AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

i know for a fact not all get the same amount,
secondly it's a certain about of gas or electricity, not both,

you say that get free driving licenses, an OAP with 20+ years expericne will probably be paying alot more in car insurance than someone with 5 years experience in their 30's.

if you want to make huge cuts, you have to have a level playing field. childrens' allowance is the biggest joke, most children never see it, it should be either

a) scrapped or
b) paid out in vouchers

They get free electricity units and fuel allowance i.e money for briquettes, coal, etc.

Well when I was 17 and starting driving I was paying €2,200 per year for insurance, why wasn't I given a free driving licence?

Level playing field??? Were you around for the last budget where OAP's were not touched yet every other member of society was! So don't talk bull!

Lets give OAP's vouchers aswell if you are going down that route?

A couple in their 70s up the road from me just last week had brand spanking new double glazed windows installed at the expense of the tax-payer.

Absolute madness!

galwayrush · 14-11-2011 12:51AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

They get free electricity units and fuel allowance i.e money for briquettes, coal, etc.

Well when I was 17 and starting driving I was paying €2,200 per year for insurance, why wasn't I given a free driving licence?

Level playing field??? Were you around for the last budget where OAP's were not touched yet every other member of society was! So don't talk bull!

Lets give OAP's vouchers aswell if you are going down that route?

A couple in their 70s up the road from me just last week had brand spanking new double glazed windows installed at the expense of the tax-payer.

Absolute madness!

Many OAP's spent a long working life paying taxes, they ****ing deserve anything they can get. We'll all be there someday, if we live long enough, i'm sure you'll appreciate the 'madness' then.

noodler · 14-11-2011 12:56AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

They get free electricity units and fuel allowance i.e money for briquettes, coal, etc.

Well when I was 17 and starting driving I was paying €2,200 per year for insurance, why wasn't I given a free driving licence?

Level playing field??? Were you around for the last budget where OAP's were not touched yet every other member of society was! So don't talk bull!

Lets give OAP's vouchers aswell if you are going down that route?

A couple in their 70s up the road from me just last week had brand spanking new double glazed windows installed at the expense of the tax-payer.

Absolute madness!

You are coming across really badly in your last few posts about pensioners.

Are you a teenager with some sort of a grudge?

oppenheimer1 · 14-11-2011 12:56AM

galwayrush wrote: »

Many OAP's spent a long working life paying taxes, they ****ing deserve anything they can get. We'll all be there someday, if we live long enough, i'm sure you'll appreciate the 'madness' then.

With an ageing population, many of the entitlements that OAPs get now will be long gone by the time the thirty-somethings retire.

OAPs shouldn't get state assistance for things they can afford. Many OAPs have pensions larger than my salary yet they get a free tv licence and a free travel pass and free healthcare. Those that have to work pay for all of the above.

When someone has been working they are paying for expenditure at that time. Old people who paid tax in their working life were paying for pensioners at that time. It isn't and shouldn't be seen as some sort of saving scheme, that they paid in so much in tax over they years, then they are entitled to the same back. It doesn't work like that.

TimTim · 14-11-2011 12:57AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I have to laugh at some of the acceptable cuts being proposed here. For example reducing politicians pay and allowance is very small beer compared with what needs to be saved. I'm not saying that their pay and allowances shouldn't be looked at, but the budget adjustment is in the order of billions not millions. Cutting politicians pay leads to two things btw. It reduces the quality of candidates and it aids corruption.

Look at what we have today. I think we're already scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

Cill Dara Abu · 14-11-2011 12:59AM

noodler wrote: »

You are coming across really badly in your last few posts about pensioners.

Are you a teenager with some sort of a grudge?

No, I'm not a teenager. People whinge about fairness when it comes to cuts in Budget 2011 yet when it comes to the little old dear down the road they can't be touched.:rolleyes:

oppenheimer1 · 14-11-2011 01:00AM

TimTim wrote: »

Look at what we have today. I think we're already scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

It can get much worse. Believe it or not, Ireland (with the major exception of the financial crisis) is a relatively well run and governed country, with little corruption. It was one positive legacy the brits left us.

noodler · 14-11-2011 01:02AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

OAPs shouldn't get state assistance for things they can afford. Many OAPs have pensions larger than my salary yet they get a free tv licence and a free travel pass and free healthcare. Those that have to work pay for all of the above.

What the f***? They have whatever pensions they bloody contributed to for their whole lives. A simple state one in most cases.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

When someone has been working they are paying for expenditure at that time. Old people who paid tax in their working life were paying for pensioners at that time. It isn't and shouldn't be seen as some sort of saving scheme, that they paid in so much in tax over they years, then they are entitled to the same back. It doesn't work like that.

Thats pretty much exactly how pensions are expected to work.

There may, and I stress may, be some room to cut the state pension to pensioners who have access to other significant sources of funds but thats about it.

Ace2007 · 14-11-2011 01:06AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

They get free electricity units and fuel allowance i.e money for briquettes, coal, etc.

Well when I was 17 and starting driving I was paying €2,200 per year for insurance, why wasn't I given a free driving licence?

Level playing field??? Were you around for the last budget where OAP's were not touched yet every other member of society was! So don't talk bull!

Lets give OAP's vouchers aswell if you are going down that route?

A couple in their 70s up the road from me just last week had brand spanking new double glazed windows installed at the expense of the tax-payer.

Absolute madness!

No they don't, it's either Electricity Allowance or Gas Allowance not both as you are implying.

And how do you know that we the tax payer paid for their windows?

at 17 what have you contributed to the state that should allow you to get anything,

a retired person could have over 40 years of tax behind them.

noodler · 14-11-2011 01:07AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

No, I'm not a teenager. People whinge about fairness when it comes to cuts in Budget 2011 yet when it comes to the little old dear down the road they can't be touched.:rolleyes:

How is it fair to take from the people who have contributed more than anyone else to the system when what we are talking about is as basic as electricity credits, a bus pass and less than 200e a week?

Talking about "the little old dear down the road" and adding moronic rollieeyes just highlights that you are painting everybody with the same brush and haven't really given this much thought.

Could you move onto the next logical step in your argument without spouting more generalistic crap because it simply makes you sound like someone who is struggling in life and saw his neighbour having a lie in one morning.

oppenheimer1 · 14-11-2011 01:08AM

noodler wrote: »

What the f***? They have whatever pensions they bloody contributed to for their whole lives. A simple state one in most cases.

Thats pretty much exactly how pensions are expected to work.

There may, and I stress may, be some room to cut the state pension to pensioners who have access to other significant sources of funds but thats about it.

The state pension and other associated entitlements doesn't work like that. It is todays taxpayers that pay for todays pensioners. If todays taxpayers cannot afford to give todays pensioners the free stuff, then it has to be cut.

As I said it shouldn't be seen as a savings scheme, as these entitlements are paid from the current account budget.

dark crystal · 14-11-2011 01:16AM

We need a serious cut in the amount of international overseas aid Ireland pays out (in 2010 the official development assistance programme paid out 675.8 million).

Also, Means test Children's Allowance and stop paying for children no longer living in the country.

noodler · 14-11-2011 01:16AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The state pension and other associated entitlements doesn't work like that.

Doesn't work like what? You pay PSRI your whole life and you are entitled to the State pension - it is quite simple.

Did I misunderstand your point there?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It is todays taxpayers that pay for todays pensioners. If todays taxpayers cannot afford to give todays pensioners the free stuff, then it has to be cut.

Lets be very clear here. You can live on 30,000 a year even if it is below the average industrial wage. There is room for manouvere. You could get a better job, you could move etc etc

State pensioners are on around 200e a week (a little more depending), you can probably make the assumption that they do not have to pay their mortgages or any rent (although that would be dangerous in today's climate).

Our state pension should not be our first port of call for cuts, welfare and or public sector pay (which has doubled since 2000) are far more bloated and worthy of consideration before the country starts casting adrift the weakest in society after they've contributed so much.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

As I said it shouldn't be seen as a savings scheme, as these entitlements are paid from the current account budget.

We pay about 3bn in public sector pensions everywhere too, that money doesn't exist, has to come out of public expenditure and the vast amount of people who paid in to these schemes see more back then they paid in.

storker · 14-11-2011 01:20AM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

You are willing to have someone acting on a national scale drawing the same amount as a industrial worker?

Yes. Having them on their current bloated incomes hasn't exactly been a roaring success. These are desperate times. Time to try something radical i.e. people not in the job for self-enrichment.

Stork

oppenheimer1 · 14-11-2011 01:29AM

noodler wrote: »

Doesn't work like what? You pay PSRI your whole life and you are entitled to the State pension - it is quite simple.

Did I misunderstand your point there?

Lets be very clear here. You can live on 30,000 a year even if it is below the average industrial wage. There is room for manouvere. You could get a better job, you could move etc etc

State pensioners are on around 200e a week (a little more depending), you can probably make the assumption that they do not have to pay their mortgages or any rent (although that would be dangerous in today's climate).

Our state pension should not be our first port of call for cuts, welfare and or public sector pay (which has doubled since 2000) are far more bloated and worthy of consideration before the country starts casting adrift the weakest in society after they've contributed so much.

We pay about 3bn in public sector pensions everywhere too, that money doesn't exist, has to come out of public expenditure and the vast amount of people who paid in to these schemes see more back then they paid in.

Yes but the money for the state pension and other associated entitlements comes from todays tax receipts. About PRSI etc. one only needs three years of stamps to qualify for the contributory pension, while the non-contributory pension is only marginally smaller. You don't need to have worked a day in your life to get the pension. You do not pay tax in order to get the pension in the future. People have it in their heads that this is true but it isn't

The pension hasn't been the first port of calls for cuts. In fact it has been far from it. Pensioners have been insulated from the deep economic malaise from which this country has suffered. In fact they have seen their purchasing power increase with the deflation that hit the economy as their pension has been protected. Pensioners also came out in force at even a small measure to reduce their entitlements while the rest of us have to go out and earn the money to pay for them.

Pensioners are not entirely blameless either. Many of them voted for politicians that led us into the crisis. They should not be insulated any more than any other sector of society. The way it stands is that well off pensioners are being protected while SNA and other necessary contract staff are being cut. The vulnerable need to be protected but are all pensioners vulnerable?

chasm · 14-11-2011 01:32AM

Cill Dara Abu wrote: »

Pensioners need to take a huge cut in this budget, they have gotten away without been touched for too long now, let them whinge all they want.

Pension: €220 p/w
Free electricity units
Medical card
Free fuel
Free travel
Free household upgrades.
And lots of other little things like free passports, driving licenses, TV licence etc.

AFAIK since April 2011 Pensioners have had to pay for their passports. Never heard of free household upgrades, what are they?

I know a couple who are OAPs and even though they have a travel pass they have never used it, mainly because the guy wouldn't be able to manage public transport, he would be able to swap his travel pass (with a small fee) for a parking permit but he never bothered.They have an 11 year old car and tip in and out of town to do their shopping etc and the odd trip away to the Uk. When they needed new windows and doors in their house they had to save for ages and then take a loan out from the credit union - not all pensioners live the highlife on a big fat pension. I certainly don't begrudge pensioners a free drivers licence considering once they hit 67 years old they have to apply every 3 years for it.

Cill Dara Abu · 14-11-2011 01:34AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

No they don't, it's either Electricity Allowance or Gas Allowance not both as you are implying.

And how do you know that we the tax payer paid for their windows?

at 17 what have you contributed to the state that should allow you to get anything,

a retired person could have over 40 years of tax behind them.

Who said anything about Gas?? You can't heat a house on electricity alone! Read the post properly before spouting bull :rolleyes:

noodler wrote: »

How is it fair to take from the people who have contributed more than anyone else to the system when what we are talking about is as basic as electricity credits, a bus pass and less than 200e a week?

Talking about "the little old dear down the road" and adding moronic rollieeyes just highlights that you are painting everybody with the same brush and haven't really given this much thought.

Could you move onto the next logical step in your argument without spouting more generalistic crap because it simply makes you sound like someone who is struggling in life and saw his neighbour having a lie in one morning.

Less than €200 p/w? Again get the facts right before spouting off!:rolleyes:

I'm far from struggling, I have never been on SW and hopefully never will!

Cill Dara Abu · 14-11-2011 01:37AM

chasm wrote: »

AFAIK since April 2011 Pensioners have had to pay for their passports. Never heard of free household upgrades, what are they?

Windows, insulation, etc.

storker · 14-11-2011 01:37AM

harrythehat wrote: »

Let's start a new discussion. What WOULD you cut? Now before 100 posts go up about TD's salaries and pensions etc bear in mind that fun as it would be to make them work for minimum wage, it would have a negligible effect on our national debt.

Irrelevant. The situation requires, nay, cries out for leadership. TDs salaries, taxing the very well off etc should be done, not because they would fix the situation but because it would be the right thing to do.

Either we're in desperate financial straits or we're not. If we are, then let's at least act like it. That means everyone takes a hit; real pain-sharing, as opposed to pain-sharing that's just talked about but never actually happens. Then and only then, go to the taxpayers, and vulnerable members of society for their contribution.

Stork

Ace2007 · 14-11-2011 01:40AM

it is about €200 p/w if your on the pension - so that's around 10k a year, you try living off 10k a year for the rest of your life, you have no idea of the facts if you think it's possible.

it's not like being on the dole, where say you have the possibility of getting off it and getting a job.

this is what you get:

•The Electricity Allowance or
•The Electricity (Group Account) Allowance or
•The Natural Gas Allowance or
•The Bottled Gas Allowance

one can only choose 1 of them,

storker · 14-11-2011 01:40AM

Dean09 wrote: »

Yes.
Earlier this year Joan Burton said she was going to review the situation and speak to the EU about it.
I haven't heard anything else about it since then though.

Let me consult my crystal ball... "I prostrate myself before you my Euro-masters...it is I , La Burton...I was just...er..um...mumble...wondering if we could...you know, review that situation...if you're not too busy, of course...oh, I see...no chance at all then...right...sorry for bothering you..."

Stork

storker · 14-11-2011 01:43AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Merge loads of the local authorities around the country.

Dublin has four? Wtf? There should be one local authority covering the GDA (Dublin and its commuter belt).

How about reducing them to four? Munster, Leinster, Connaught, Dublin. Until we get the fourth green field back, fold Donegal into Connaught and Cavan into Leinster.

Stork

storker · 14-11-2011 01:45AM

Dean09 wrote: »

The next 2 are somewhat controversial but should be considered in some detail but carefully regulated and monitored....
Legalize cannabis ( I don't smoke weed so this isn't for personal/selfish reasons.
Legalize prostitution. (This would have to be extensively regulated. I'm not 100% sure on this one myself but it could be considered.)

Well, they are always talking about widening the tax base...you can't get much wider than that!

In all seriousness, I agree.

Stork

oppenheimer1 · 14-11-2011 01:46AM

Ace2007 wrote: »

it is about €200 p/w if your on the pension - so that's around 10k a year, you try living off 10k a year for the rest of your life, you have no idea of the facts if you think it's possible.

it's not like being on the dole, where say you have the possibility of getting off it and getting a job.

this is what you get:

•The Electricity Allowance or
•The Electricity (Group Account) Allowance or
•The Natural Gas Allowance or
•The Bottled Gas Allowance

one can only choose 1 of them,

I'd say its pretty manageable as a lifetime of work, one will have built up assets. It is unlikely you'll be paying rent or a mortgage at that stage. You also get free healthcare and prescriptions (the 50c charge is on the way out).
€220 a week is plenty to live on, to pay what bills you have in excess of your allowance. In fact all a pensioner needs their money for is food and clothes and minor household chores/repair. The state takes care of the rest.

storker · 14-11-2011 01:48AM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I have to laugh at some of the acceptable cuts being proposed here. For example reducing politicians pay and allowance is very small beer compared with what needs to be saved.

It's not about the savings - it's about a little thing called leadership.

I'm not saying that their pay and allowances shouldn't be looked at, but the budget adjustment is in the order of billions not millions. Cutting politicians pay leads to two things btw. It reduces the quality of candidates and it aids corruption.

Rubbish. The quality of people in the Dail could scarcely be any lower, and they're on some of the best parliamentary salaries in the world.

Out of curiosity, have you got a cite to back up that claim?

Stork

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 14-11-2011 01:49AM

papajimsmooth wrote: »

Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people

Does nobody else get this reference? For shame.

What ARE you willing to have cut?

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