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Do Christians actually believe in demonic possession?

135

Comments

  • #62
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    It can stand up to its own scrutiny on its own terms. But it does not stand up to any scientific scrutiny.
    This can be said about many religions and gods.

    What do you mean by "scientific scrutiny"?

    You mean that it cannot be proven, much in the way that most other things including the reliability of your senses cannot be proven? (Proof lies in mathematics)

    If you applied the same standards to whatever else cannot be proven I'd definitely give your worldview a lot more respect. Since you don't one could wonder why you continue using that as your key objection.


  • #63
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    What do you mean by "scientific scrutiny"?

    You mean that it cannot be proven, much in the way that most other things including the reliability of your senses cannot be proven? (Proof lies in mathematics)

    If you applied the same standards to whatever else cannot be proven I'd definitely give your worldview a lot more respect. Since you don't one could wonder why you continue using that as your key objection.

    No no. What do you mean by 'it can stand up to scrutiny". We need to clarify that before we proceed.
    And also what the bejaysas do you mean most other things cannot be proven including our senses?,
    Im more certain that i am reading your words and feeling the keys under my fingers and hearing them click than i am of any of the myriad of gods or demonic possessions and im pretty sure that our senses are understood biologically.
    So again. What do you mean by 'stands up to scrutiny' and by whom?


  • #64
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    It can hold up irrespective of what objections that one throws at it. Christianity remains in 2011 and it continues to grow globally in 2011. It grows not because of man's effort but because of God's providence and faithfulness.

    I mean that our senses cannot objectively be proven to be reliable. Therefore why do you trust in them if they cannot be proven to be so?

    I trust in God, because He has shown Himself to be reliable in my life. His Word also shows itself to be true in daily life. His word provides a realistic picture of the human condition and the way things are. Whole swathes of the Biblical text can be backed up historically. The existence of Jesus is regarded widely by historians. That's good enough for me. I trust in His Word because I have good reason to. If I didn't I wouldn't.

    Likewise your senses come in pretty handy when you're crossing the road even if they cannot be proven to be reliable.


  • #65
    Halal Butcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭Halal Butcher


    philologos wrote: »
    It can hold up irrespective of what objections that one throws at it. Christianity remains in 2011 and it continues to grow globally in 2011. It grows not because of man's effort but because of God's providence and faithfulness.

    I mean that our senses cannot objectively be proven to be reliable. Therefore why do you trust in them if they cannot be proven to be so?

    I trust in God, because He has shown Himself to be reliable in my life. His Word also shows itself to be true in daily life. His word provides a realistic picture of the human condition and the way things are. Whole swathes of the Biblical text can be backed up historically. The existence of Jesus is regarded widely by historians. That's good enough for me. I trust in His Word because I have good reason to. If I didn't I wouldn't.

    Likewise your senses come in pretty handy when you're crossing the road even if they cannot be proven to be reliable.

    So you believe the story in the New Testament of the demonic possession and the pigs?
    1 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”
    9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
    “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
    11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
    14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.
    18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.


  • #66
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ Yes, I do.

    We're actually working our way through Mark's Gospel on the Christianity forum right now.


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  • #67
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    ^^ Yes, I do.

    We're actually working our way through Mark's Gospel on the Christianity forum right now.

    Wow..Just wow!!!!
    Truly scary


  • #68
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Wow..Just wow!!!!
    Truly scary

    How so? I thought you knew that I actually believe in Jesus.


  • #69
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    It can hold up irrespective of what objections that one throws at it. Christianity remains in 2011 and it continues to grow globally in 2011. So does Witchcraft and Voodoo. It grows not because of man's effort but because of God's providence and faithfulness.

    I mean that our senses cannot objectively be proven to be reliable. Therefore why do you trust in them if they cannot be proven to be so?

    I trust in God, because He has shown Himself to be reliable in my life. His Word also shows itself to be true in daily life. His word provides a realistic picture of the human condition and the way things are. Whole swathes of the Biblical text can be backed up historically. The existence of Jesus is regarded widely by historians. That's good enough for me. I trust in His Word because I have good reason to. If I didn't I wouldn't.

    Likewise your senses come in pretty handy when you're crossing the road even if they cannot be proven to be reliable.

    Yes an invisible uberbeing who exists outside our perception with no corporeal form can tend to do that. The rest of your post has as much merit as those who firmly firmly believe that they have been abducted by aliens and had unpleasant things done to their bottoms.


  • #70
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    How so? I thought you knew that I actually believe in Jesus.

    I believe in jesus as well (The man from whom the myth and legend formed). The chatty snakes, pillars of salt, flaming vocal bushes, ladies getting pregnant from a magic cuddle, demonically possessed pigs etc dont automatically follow. Thats just plain crazy stuff:eek:
    Funny how we dont see so much of that stuff 2000 years on eh?


  • #71
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    philologos wrote: »
    It can hold up irrespective of what objections that one throws at it. Christianity remains in 2011 and it continues to grow globally in 2011. It grows not because of man's effort but because of God's providence and faithfulness.

    Yes, indeed, as the population in third world countries with lack of proper education increases, compared to first world countries, so too does the number who prescribe to Christian beliefs. You are manipulating statistics, methinks.


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  • #72
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Yes, indeed, as the population in third world countries with lack of proper education increases, compared to first world countries, so too does the number who prescribe to Christian beliefs. You are manipulating statistics, methinks.

    I'm not basing it on births, but rather on the people who accept Christianity for themselves. More and more people in the world are doing this today. I can thank God that more are coming to know Him even if others are falling away.


  • #73
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Satan was the good guy in the Bible. Just read the Old Testament.

    Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions) were devised as a control mechanism by the ruling classes.

    The Bible paints Luficer, he who enlightens, as the evil one, the prince of darkness. Lucifer tried to ween humanity away from the genocidal God of the Old Testament in favour of rationale and freedom from the chains of God's wrath. "Lucifer", literally means the "Light bearer", the Illuminator, the one who sheds light on reality.

    Lucifer, after all, was the person who, according to the Bible, first helped men develop free will - the infamous apple from Tree of Life, awakening mankind to the reality of the world.

    In the Bible, we are subconsciously led to believe that being knowledgeable about the reality of the world is evil. To question reality is ungodly. To question the order of society is blasphemous.

    When people are led to believe this, they would easily succumb to the will of the ruling class; under their control.

    Christianity, along with Judaism and Islam, were probably one of the greatest mechanism of social engineering man has ever devised.


  • #74
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Christianity - a means of social engineering which civil authorities disagreed with for centuries, and still disagree with to this very day. One would wonder how successful a means of social engineering it would be if it serves God Himself and those who long to know Him.


  • #75
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    philologos wrote: »
    Christianity - a means of social engineering which civil authorities disagreed with for centuries, and still disagree with to this very day.

    Well of course they would disagree with that analogy. If they agreed then the whole point of the mechanism would be destroyed.
    philologos wrote: »
    One would wonder how successful a means of social engineering it would be if it serves God Himself and those who long to know Him.

    *Cough* false promises.


  • #76
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    I like to regard myself as an Agnostic Atheist who follows a Satanic philosophy.


  • #77
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Killer Pigeon - Who would the mechanism be serving? The only Kingdom Christianity ever serves is God's Kingdom. The only person that Christianity ever glorifies is Jesus Christ. Christianity at its core claims to inspire people to do two things:
    1) Love the Lord your God with their your heart soul and might.
    2) Love their neighbour as themselves.

    If I achieve those two things in my life time, I'll consider it a life well lived.


  • #78
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    philologos wrote: »
    Killer Pigeon - Who would the mechanism be serving? The only Kingdom Christianity ever serves is God's Kingdom. The only person that Christianity ever glorifies is Jesus Christ.

    Christianity at its core claims to inspire people to do two things:
    1) Love the Lord your God with their your heart soul and might.
    2) Love their neighbour as themselves.

    If I achieve those two things in my life time, I'll consider it a life well lived.

    I can't fathom how it isn't so obvious.


  • #79
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    As far as I see it, it isn't obvious because it's not true Killer Pigeon.


  • #80
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    philologos wrote: »
    As far as I see it, it isn't obvious because it's not true Killer Pigeon.

    Look, make up an idol, brainwash everyone into believing in it and give them false promises of hope given onto humanity by this "God". Behind it all, they fall into the control of the person who preaches about this "God". This is the reality of most religions.

    The sadest thing I ever heard was from a homeless man I met when I was helping out in Crosscare when I was in school. He told me, "I always thought I was homeless, until I found out that my true home is in heaven". The man was so compelled by this belief, that he went to mass ever day and gave a sizable amount of his tiny allowance to the collections during mass, including the collection for the "Sick and Retired Priests of the Parish". Instead of saving up his much needed allowance, he scarified it to those who preached these beliefs. I was about 15/16 at the time and I got so sickened by how this man was brainwashed that I began seriously questioning the whole reality of the Catholic Church and religion in general. That man is probably dead now. Religion is a profitable business that feeds on the weak and vulnerable.


  • #81
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I became a Christian on reading the Scriptures as a teenager. No brainwashing involved, I came to my own conclusions and as a result accepted Christ. What I read in the Bible was compelling and convincing.

    I go to church, simply put to be a part of that community and to grow spiritually so that I can tell others about Christ. Churches shouldn't control people, and indeed mine doesn't. If I find something that the preacher on a given Sunday has said objectionable, I can go up to him and ask him about what was said and where he found it in the Bible. Through my own thinking I can determine whether or not I found a particular sermon reasonable. That's the way that churches should be, encouraging people to read the Bible for themselves and discover Jesus for themselves as I did. That's the best gift one can give anyone.

    Christianity is intellectually rigorous and is about continual discovery about the inner nature of reality.


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  • #82
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    philologos wrote: »
    Christianity is intellectually rigorous and is about continual discovery about the inner nature of reality.

    The only "intellectual rigor" in Christianity is in interpretation of man-made scripture. The only discoveries one can make about the nature of reality in Christianity are from the biased perspective of scripture and church doctrine. The rational way to interpret reality is from a completely unbiased standpoint, religion doesn't offer this. Science and pure philosophy are the only things that can offer anything close to this. Religion is a ready-made philosophy which filters one's interpretation of reality.


  • #83
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Killer Pigeon - again, that's only if you understand it as "man made Scripture". As for church doctrine, one could be a member of no church and nonetheless come to read the Bible and discover more about who Jesus said He was. It is up to you from there to determine if it is reasonable that He was who He said He was. As a result of what I saw, and from looking at reality on the basis of what I read I came to the conclusion that Christianity was accurate in its assessment of the truth.

    All this started from a prayer which I thought would land on deaf ears. Out of curiosity I decided to read the Bible, I prayed something along the lines of "God if you're really there, show me who you are", and lo-and-behold He did.


  • #84
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,073 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Batsy wrote: »
    <stuff about possession and Anthony Head>
    I agree.
    Anthony Head was also in a 145 part documentary about Vampires and Demons in modern day Southern California. It was really educational.

    Wow! As I write this, there's a documentary on Channel 4 about vampires in America.

    Anyway, word is that they actually originated here in Ireland. The first one was called "Dracula", but he went by the pseudonym of "Bram".

    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Satan was the good guy in the Bible. Just read the Old Testament.

    Christianity (and other Abrahamic religions) were devised as a control mechanism by the ruling classes.

    The Bible paints Luficer, he who enlightens, as the evil one, the prince of darkness. Lucifer tried to ween humanity away from the genocidal God of the Old Testament in favour of rationale and freedom from the chains of God's wrath. "Lucifer", literally means the "Light bearer", the Illuminator, the one who sheds light on reality.

    Lucifer, after all, was the person who, according to the Bible, first helped men develop free will - the infamous apple from Tree of Life, awakening mankind to the reality of the world.

    In the Bible, we are subconsciously led to believe that being knowledgeable about the reality of the world is evil. To question reality is ungodly. To question the order of society is blasphemous.

    When people are led to believe this, they would easily succumb to the will of the ruling class; under their control.

    Christianity, along with Judaism and Islam, were probably one of the greatest mechanism of social engineering man has ever devised.
    ****ing Satanist. May you burn in Hel....
    Shít. Wait...
    Damn you to hell Sata...

    ffs. You just keep winning.


  • #85
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,073 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    philologos wrote: »
    Killer Pigeon - again, that's only if you understand it as "man made Scripture". As for church doctrine, one could be a member of no church and nonetheless come to read the Bible and discover more about who Jesus said He was. It is up to you from there to determine if it is reasonable that He was who He said He was. As a result of what I saw, and from looking at reality on the basis of what I read I came to the conclusion that Christianity was accurate in its assessment of the truth.

    All this started from a prayer which I thought would land on deaf ears. Out of curiosity I decided to read the Bible, I prayed something along the lines of "God if you're really there, show me who you are", and lo-and-behold He did.
    That wasn't God.
    It was me fúcking with you, Jakkass.


  • #86
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Terry wrote: »
    ****ing Satanist. May you burn in Hel....
    Shít. Wait...
    Damn you to hell Sata...

    ffs. You just keep winning.

    I am Satan. I have come to you to free you from the shackles and chains of God. But of course, I am Satan, I do not exist, or do I....


  • #87
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    philologos wrote: »
    Out of curiosity I decided to read the Bible, I prayed something along the lines of "God if you're really there, show me who you are", and lo-and-behold He did.

    http://www.goldenpages.ie/psychiatrists/


  • #88
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    philologos wrote: »
    I became a Christian on reading the Scriptures as a teenager.
    Teenagers eh. Rampant hormones, confusion, needyness, emotions running riot and the need to belong to something. Glad i read Lord of the Rings as a teen. Isnt that right MY PRECIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!
    Oh and i also read the bible as a devout wee irish catholic in a rural area after years as an altar boy and realised what an incitement to violence by a monster it is. Now Im an atheist. Different strokes for different folks.;)


  • #89
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    philologos wrote: »
    Killer Pigeon - again, that's only if you understand it as "man made Scripture". As for church doctrine, one could be a member of no church and nonetheless come to read the Bible and discover more about who Jesus said He was. It is up to you from there to determine if it is reasonable that He was who He said He was. As a result of what I saw, and from looking at reality on the basis of what I read I came to the conclusion that Christianity was accurate in its assessment of the truth.

    All this started from a prayer which I thought would land on deaf ears. Out of curiosity I decided to read the Bible, I prayed something along the lines of "God if you're really there, show me who you are", and lo-and-behold He did.

    Thats sounds like classic demonic possession to me.
    As much as folk say that the Devils best trick was making us believe he does not exist I firmly believe that his best trick is making susceptible teens believe that his voice is the voice of God and then dedicate their lives to him.
    You need exorcism Philologos and you need it now. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!!!


  • #90
    flutterflye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    This thread has gone a bit weird.

    God is dead and no one cares and if there is a hell, I'll see you there.


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  • #91
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    I never heard anyone complaining about dying yet.


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