Liberals being Pro-Choice :/

Lemmewinks · 12-11-2011 09:25PM #1

Hi,

Was having a discussion today with a few people, and I brought up that I would have thought it logical (based on their other moral & ethical beliefs) to assume that liberals would be Pro-Life - but most of them are Pro-Choice.

I would have just assumed that being all for protecting life would have tied in more consistently with their ethics and beliefs; everyone is equal, be nice, protect trees, etc (<generalising in jest BTW).

But seriously - this is not a abortion discussion at all - but more a case of whether it would be logical to assume this? Most liberals I know will argue against any harm to life; the death penalty, animal poaching, animal testing, fox hunting, etc; they they seem fine with aborting babies...

It just strikes me an inconsistent.

Anyway - opinions welcome!

EverEvolving · 12-11-2011 09:33PM

I refer you to the meaning of the word Liberal:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal

adjective 1.favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2.(often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3.of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.

4.favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

5.favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

Number 4 sums it up for me really.

Lemmewinks · 12-11-2011 09:36PM

EverEvolving wrote: »

I refer you to the meaning of the word Liberal:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/liberal

Number 5 sums it up for me really.

Right, so the freedom... to kill a baby. I see... I understood it to be freedom of actions that don't harm others.

Now I'm not saying I'm for or against abortion - I'm just trying to see how this view is consistent with all of their other views.

southsiderosie · 12-11-2011 09:38PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Right, so the freedom... to kill a baby. I see... I understood it to be freedom of actions that don't harm others.

Now I'm not saying I'm for or against abortion

Um, I think you have made yourself pretty clear on that account.

gurramok · 12-11-2011 09:39PM

Maybe i'm a liberal as i'm tolerant of social issues as I believe in the freedom to think without religious interference but I am against uncontrolled immigration and have Irish nationalist views. I ain't a leftie or a righty or a centrist , where does that put me?

Kasabian · 12-11-2011 09:39PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Right, so the freedom... to kill a baby. I see... I understood it to be freedom of actions that don't harm others.

Now I'm not saying I'm for or against abortion - I'm just trying to see how this view is consistent with all of their other views.

Try reading the second post and follow the links, this will save you a headache, as your assumption is incorrect.

sock puppet · 12-11-2011 09:39PM

For starters you've confused left wing and liberal. And for some other issues you mentioned the divide is really urban/rural.

EverEvolving · 12-11-2011 09:41PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Right, so the freedom... to kill a baby. I see... I understood it to be freedom of actions that don't harm others.

Now I'm not saying I'm for or against abortion - I'm just trying to see how this view is consistent with all of their other views.

favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible

The individual being the person deciding whether or not to have the 'baby'.

Ghost Buster · 12-11-2011 09:45PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Right, so the freedom... to kill a baby. I see... I understood it to be freedom of actions that don't harm others.

Now I'm not saying I'm for or against abortion - I'm just trying to see how this view is consistent with all of their other views.

You come right out and call abortion the killing of a baby which is malicious, mis representative and provocative and indicates a very definite opinion on the subject and then say that you are not taking a stance for or against abortion. Hmmmmmmm i sense and agenda.

Kasabian · 12-11-2011 09:49PM

Subtle troll.

Wait I might be in the wrong thread, I'll be back just have to check.

MungBean · 12-11-2011 09:51PM

Your problem is you've already made your mind up in regards abortion and class it as killing a baby.

I'd see it as a women making a decision in regards to her own body and aborting a foetus which is part of that body. Pro choice liberals would think she should be able to make that decision on whether to carry that foetus full term or not.

But as said your mistaking left wing and liberalism and already determined the act is wrong.

Killer Pigeon · 12-11-2011 09:56PM

I think a woman should have the choice as to whether or not she'd like to abort the pregnancy during the first and second trimester.

I'm not sure about third trimester abortions because children have been born during that period and lived perfectly healthy lives afterward. Third trimester abortions should only be conducted if the mother's life is in danger or if the fetus will not survive the duration of the pregnancy, in my opinion.

So basically, I agree with pro-choice until the point in the pregnancy where the fetus has developed some form of consciousness, after which it should be down to medical reasons.

pragmatic1 · 12-11-2011 09:59PM

I think labels like liberal and conservative are pretty meaningless. Most people will have a mix of conservative and liberal views.

Teclo · 12-11-2011 10:01PM

Political arguments on what 'liberalism' means isn't really the issue. Those who style themselves as liberals like to be seen by the general public as being nice people, only in favour of nice things. The hypocrisy can be seen in the likes of the British Liberal Party, who can argue against medical experiments on goldfish and for abortion on demand.

John Doe1 · 12-11-2011 10:04PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Hi,

Was having a discussion today with a few people, and I brought up that I would have thought it logical (based on their other moral & ethical beliefs) to assume that liberals would be Pro-Life - but most of them are Pro-Choice.

I would have just assumed that being all for protecting life would have tied in more consistently with their ethics and beliefs; everyone is equal, be nice, protect trees, etc (<generalising in jest BTW).

But seriously - this is not a abortion discussion at all - but more a case of whether it would be logical to assume this? Most liberals I know will argue against any harm to life; the death penalty, animal poaching, animal testing, fox hunting, etc; they they seem fine with aborting babies... It just strikes me an inconsistent.

Anyway - opinions welcome!

You really dont understand what liberalism means do you, please go back to reading the daily mail

Logical Fallacy · 12-11-2011 10:05PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Hi,

Was having a discussion today with a few people, and I brought up that I would have thought it logical (based on their other moral & ethical beliefs) to assume that liberals would be Pro-Life - but most of them are Pro-Choice.

I would have just assumed that being all for protecting life would have tied in more consistently with their ethics and beliefs; everyone is equal, be nice, protect trees, etc (<generalising in jest BTW).

But seriously - this is not a abortion discussion at all - but more a case of whether it would be logical to assume this? Most liberals I know will argue against any harm to life; the death penalty, animal poaching, animal testing, fox hunting, etc; they they seem fine with aborting babies... It just strikes me an inconsistent.

Anyway - opinions welcome!

You are falling into the common trap of trying to simplify the complex. I understand it's the norm now with regard to political leaning but it's a mistake.

Teclo wrote: »

Political arguments on what 'liberalism' means isn't really the issue. Those who style themselves as liberals like to be seen by the general public as being nice people, only in favour of nice things. The hypocrisy can be seen in the likes of the British Liberal Party, who can argue against medical experiments on goldfish and for abortion on demand.

Once again, too desperate to simplify the complex in an effort to put people down.

Must try harder.

Lemmewinks · 12-11-2011 10:10PM

Okay people - I digress - I was wrong.

MungBean · 12-11-2011 10:11PM

Teclo wrote: »

Political arguments on what 'liberalism' means isn't really the issue. Those who style themselves as liberals like to be seen by the general public as being nice people, only in favour of nice things. The hypocrisy can be seen in the likes of the British Liberal Party, who can argue against medical experiments on goldfish and for abortion on demand.

Being a liberal person is to be in favour of personal freedom. Every rational person is against cruelty. The issue is how people see abortion. Some will see it as a choice for the woman who's carrying the foetus and others will see it different.

Being a liberal doesnt automatically put you on any side of the abortion argument. Its not hypocritical to believe abortion isnt cruel because you think it is.

MrPudding · 12-11-2011 10:15PM

Kasabian wrote: »

Subtle troll.

Subtle troll is not subtle.

MrP

Gyalist · 12-11-2011 10:17PM

In reply to Lemmewinks

Why do conservatives care so much for the unborn and so little after they are born?

Lemmewinks · 12-11-2011 10:19PM

Gyalist wrote: »

In reply to Lemmewinks

Why do conservatives care so much for the unborn and so little after they are born?

You should ask a conservative.

mcmoustache · 12-11-2011 10:27PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Hi,
I don't like liberals and just thought I'd start a thread to express that.

What was your previous boards.ie username?

galwayrush · 12-11-2011 10:30PM

It's saturday night, i have a lot of wine to get through, thid is too serious to be thinking about. i think.sod it. i'm confused.

dilbert2 · 12-11-2011 10:30PM

Yeah damn liberals, how dare anybody suggest that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy within her own body, a process which has the safe backup and approval of the scientific and medical professions, while ignoring the religious crowd.

starbelgrade · 12-11-2011 10:33PM

Everybody's Pro-Life.

Only some people believe in allowing people have the right to choose to have an abortion if they so wish.

thee glitz · 12-11-2011 10:41PM

MungBean wrote: »

I'd see it as a women making a decision in regards to her own body and aborting a foetus which is part of that body. Pro choice liberals would think she should be able to make that decision on whether to carry that foetus full term or not.

I'd see it as a woman making a decision in regards to her own and her and partner's child's body and scrambling a child which she and him created. Pro choice liberals would think she should be able to make that decision on whether to kill her and her partner's child or not.

MungBean · 12-11-2011 11:02PM

thee glitz wrote: »

I'd see it as a woman making a decision in regards to her own and her and partner's child's body and scrambling a child which she and him created. Pro choice liberals would think she should be able to make that decision on whether to kill her and her partner's child or not.

The fact you see it as killing a child is the issue then. Unless you think its ok for a child to be killed when both parents consent your argument is rubbish. Your "pro life" and think abortion is the killing of a child.

Someone who thinks abortion should be the right of the mother as its her body isnt arguing to take any decision away from the potential father. Its an argument in favour of the freedom of the women who should be able to make a choice that affects her body.

Terry · 12-11-2011 11:10PM

Lemmewinks wrote: »

Hi,

Was having a discussion today with a few people, and I brought up that I would have thought it logical (based on their other moral & ethical beliefs) to assume that liberals would be Pro-Life - but most of them are Pro-Choice.

I would have just assumed that being all for protecting life would have tied in more consistently with their ethics and beliefs; everyone is equal, be nice, protect trees, etc (<generalising in jest BTW).

But seriously - this is not a abortion discussion at all - but more a case of whether it would be logical to assume this? Most liberals I know will argue against any harm to life; the death penalty, animal poaching, animal testing, fox hunting, etc; they they seem fine with aborting babies... It just strikes me an inconsistent.

Anyway - opinions welcome!

A great adventure is waiting for you ahead.

It's called life.

Allow me to sum it up for you: Sometimes you'll be wrong, sometimes you'll be right.
When you're wrong, people will disagree with you. When you're right, people will disagree with you.

As for abortion, I'm sure that Kang will have a miniature American flag for you.

Teclo · 12-11-2011 11:15PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Once again, too desperate to simplify the complex in an effort to put people down.

Must try harder.

People generally use the word 'complex' in relation to abortion when they want to ignore the reality that a human life must be taken for the right to choose to be vindicated.

MungBean wrote: »

Being a liberal person is to be in favour of personal freedom.

But many, if not all, liberals are against giving people the right to choose to hunt foxes, bait badgers etc. on the basis that another creature dies as a result of that choice being made.

12-11-2011 11:27PM

Teclo wrote: »

But many, if not all, liberals are against giving people the right to choose to hunt foxes, bait badgers etc. on the basis that another creature dies as a result of that choice being made.

But if the foxes had to live inside a person's womb for nine months being supported by that person's internal systems, culminating in an excruciatingly painful potentially damaging birth whereby the fox would have to be pushed out of the person's vagina, leaving them with a lifetime of emotional and financial strain, that's a different story than them being hunted for sport.

You cannot liken fox hunting to having a child.

philologos · 12-11-2011 11:36PM

Do you realise what you've done OP?

Liberals being Pro-Choice :/

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