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Student protest to stop fee increases and protect the grant

245

Comments

  • #32
    Robdude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Robdude


    If you let people go to school for free, a lot of people will go and waste the education/dollars. They'll show up, party/screw around, and fail out or drop out, or study something easy and worthless on the tax payer's dollar.

    If you don't provide financial support, poorer people won't be able to afford a good education and you end up with children who have no chance at getting an education or getting a high paying job in their future.

    People who study, successfully, are going to earn a lot more (on average) than those who don't. They'll pay more taxes too - so it's a win for everyone in the country. We want people to be educated; but we don't want to give people a free ride - because too many people will take advantage of it. Go to UCD on a Thursday night at midnight and see how studious and hard-working everyone is. It's a f***ing joke. And students will tell you, 'Oh, don't worry, it'll be quiet in the Spring semester when these kids leave'.

    So we need a system that holds students accountable while still allowing those without financial resources to attend school.

    I think we should have need-based student loans backed by the government.

    Not a free-ride at all. But if you are poor/have no money, you can still get an education. You need to pay it back. That will discourage people from attending and not caring/failing out/quitting/partying. Successful students will finish their education, get a high paying job, and repay their loans.


  • #33
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,560 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    There needs to be a proper financial aid system in place before fees are reintroduced. Low income kids should get some grants, but I see no problem with students taking on some debt that they can begin to pay off once employed and earning over a certain level of money. People should take on some of the financial risk of their own education, especially considering that the long-term financial rewards of a university degree are so great.

    In addition, lecturer and administration wages need to be looked at - again. There are a lot of people who are waaaay overpaid in Irish academia, especially in comparison to their peers at universities of similar or higher international ranking.


  • #34
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    I agree that grants should be protected but they should stay stringently means-tested and a way to help the lowest in society advance, not the people who can afford it to drink 5 nights a week.

    As for fees though, I can't say I'm completly against them. Too many people go to college not as a means to a high level of education but for the "College experience". Too many people enroll for courses and then drop out or don't bother actually attending the lectures or doing the work required. People take college for granted nowadays and it would be no harm if people were asked to actually take some finiancial responsibilities before going into a course. If people were asked to stake a claim themselves onto a course, perhaps there'd be less wasters and more people taking it seriously.

    Of course, that only works if there's a suitable loan system available for students at the same time; there's no point introducing fees and also having banks refusing to give people money. A student loan that covers college and a part of the expenses should be available that can be paid back once work begins is the best way forward, but given the state of the banks, thats not currently viable I guess...

    EDIT: Also, saying "No violence" is pointless, since I believe it's not the students who are causing violent problems; its the groups who merge into the students who only want violence. Young kids who can blend in with the younger crowds, extreme political groups who want to hijack protests for their own means, etc. There's no way to stop those groups infiltrating student protests as they are usually organised; you need to think of a different means of tackling your problems with the powers-that-be and, more importantly, when the violence does start, you need to side with the police and turf the violent people out of your group instead of crying police brutality and losing all public sympathy....


  • #35
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    I look forward to next week's thread about the Garda bashing them.


  • #36
    B_Fanatic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 334 ✭✭B_Fanatic


    I'm a student. I think fees should be introduced, however, I also believe grants should be increased dramatically. That way the rich, i.e. those who can afford college won't be recieving thousands of euro where they do not need it and the lower class and the middle class will proportionally recieve an amount of money.

    On the other hand I just learned something that sickens me. My friend, who's family onws millions of euros worth of assets and has thousands of euros in the bank got a FULL student grant. €5000. He has a car paid for by his parents and would have passed through college with little to no worries about finance. And he got a €5000 grant. When I heard it I nearly got sick. As far as I know that's about a years worth of VAT for somebody going to this guy's education. Money he doesn't need. What the **** is wrong with our government, that's clearly a flawed system.


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  • #37
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    I wouldnt waste my time OP. People in this forum think all protest is worthless, that all causes other than whinging on the internet are bogus, That everybody should just look after No.1 and fúck everyone else, and they are perfectly happy to accept whatever the unelected troika dictate.

    but dont take it to heart, theres people in the real world who arent as apathetic


  • #38
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Whilst turkeys will never vote for Christmas, so many people don't acknowledge the severe downsides to "free fees". I'm not going to bother writing all of this again, so here's what I've said the last 2 times this came up.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71398453&postcount=114
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71403656&postcount=118
    Fees SHOULD be brought back. All it has done is helped better off people put more money into 2nd level education, decreased funding for universities (thus causing a need to increase the amount of people in each course), increased the private/public school divide in third level and created a generation who expect third level education and view it as a right.

    -Whilst it should be available to all, it should not actually be everybody who does go to Third Level. They should cut the amount of places by between 5% and 10% in general. And postgraduate education should not be viewed as a cash cow to fund 3rd Level. The opportunity should be there for everybody, but it is not a right. You should earn it and deserve it.

    The well off families just use the money to improve their children's secondary education. The disparity between well off students and under privileged students has grown since free fees came in.

    I say what I always say, bring back fees for those that can afford them and improve the grant system. Care should be taken so that those just over the current grant threshold are not screwed, but free fees should be a thing of the past.


  • #39
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    sensibleken wrote: »
    I wouldnt waste my time OP. People in this forum think all protest is worthless, that all causes other than whinging on the internet are bogus, That everybody should just look after No.1 and fúck everyone else, and they are perfectly happy to accept whatever the unelected troika dictate.

    but dont take it to heart, theres people in the real world who arent as apathetic

    Yes, don't waste your time with actual debate and discussion on a topic. Dismiss people's real concerns and attack their credibility by calling them "internet whingers". It's easier to hold a view on something when you just ignore the points of those who disagree with you.

    :rolleyes:


  • #40
    skywalker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭skywalker


    Totally agree with the protests, & If I can come out & support ye, I will. I was lucky enough to go to college just after the free fees were introduced, & I was bloody glad of the education I got. Every child of this country deserves the same as me.

    As has been said I am now paying back what I got in spades in the form of higher taxation, & I'm glad to do so.

    We are a small island on the periphery of Europe, when all the tax breaks are gone, the only thing that will keep the high paying jobs here are innovation, & a well educated workforce.


  • #41
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I suggest the students direct their protest to this address;

    Fianna Fáil Headquarters
    65-66 Lower Mount Street
    Dublin 2

    and also do a small bit of reading into what has happened to the country since 2008, the current government are not to blame for this and quite frankly trimming the wings of some of our "students" would be no harm, after christmas how many of them will drop out when the grant has run out and college is no longer the big party of booze and nights out then.


    Putting the word students in brackets to try and belittle people availing of third level education to get a good job followed by a huge generalisation.

    Maybe stop being bitter about not having the brains, or the opportunity to go to college yourself?


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  • #42
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    B_Fanatic wrote: »
    I'm a student. I think fees should be introduced, however, I also believe grants should be increased dramatically. That way the rich, i.e. those who can afford college won't be recieving thousands of euro where they do not need it and the lower class and the middle class will proportionally recieve an amount of money.

    On the other hand I just learned something that sickens me. My friend, who's family onws millions of euros worth of assets and has thousands of euros in the bank got a FULL student grant. €5000. He has a car paid for by his parents and would have passed through college with little to no worries about finance. And he got a €5000 grant. When I heard it I nearly got sick. As far as I know that's about a years worth of VAT for somebody going to this guy's education. Money he doesn't need. What the **** is wrong with our government, that's clearly a flawed system.

    If the family are not declaring their income correctly there is not much the government can do apart from send down revenue.


  • #43
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Yes, don't waste your time with actual debate and discussion on a topic. Dismiss people's real concerns and attack their credibility by calling them "internet whingers". It's easier to hold a view on something when you just ignore the points of those who disagree with you.

    :rolleyes:

    Im not calling people who disagree with the OP whingers. I should have made that more clear so my apologies.

    It is a complex issue to which both have valid arguements and my personal view is that it should be free but under current conditions that is not possible so the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

    There are those however who will simply dissmiss any form of protest as a waste of time and throw a few ad hominem arguements around about lazy students or 'get a job'. Those are who i have issue with, not those who actually have arguments.


  • #44
    SugarCoat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 133 ✭✭SugarCoat


    I know some of you may be be angry at me for suggesting this but...What if the every university student paid an extra €1000 and every IT student pay an extra €500?The universities generally have students from more privilaged backgrounds and the costs are far far greater than the ITs for things like upkeep of the building,lecturer's pay etc.While the ITs are generally low cost and sustainable.

    there were more than 160,000 students in 2010 so lets say around 1/2 of them(80,000)are uni students.
    80,000X1000=80,000,000
    80,000X500=40,000,000

    so 120million could be saved that way,add in other savings such as cap spending on items that do not effect education such as chairs,windows etc and introduce schemes where students work 1 day a week as a module to earn money for the institution to make up the rest of the shortfall

    just my €0.02...


  • #45
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Im not calling people who disagree with the OP whingers. I should have made that more clear so my apologies.

    It is a complex issue to which both have valid arguements and my personal view is that it should be free but under current conditions that is not possible so the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

    There are those however who will simply dissmiss any form of protest as a waste of time and throw a few ad hominem arguements around about lazy students or 'get a job'. Those are who i have issue with, not those who actually have arguments.

    I wouldn't be one who uses arguements about lazy students or get a job, but I have argued in the past that protests like the one being proposed here ARE a waste of time.

    The problem with these protests is the message they send. They preach a message of wanting to protect the education of the poor while being nearly completly led and organised by people with "posh" accents. And its not realistic in this day and age to expect things to remain the same as they were 5 or 10 years ago. The problem with these protests then is that the protesters rarely actually campaign on a stable, workable message; rather than trying to help shape the reintroduction of fees to be fair to a large majority and target those who can easily pay the fees, they go with a blanket "no fees" statement which is going to get nowhere, either with the government or the public who you need on your side.

    Then, you have the fact these protests WILL be hijacked, by a mix of ****ers who will cause violent trouble and by extreme political groups who most normal people want nothing to do with, and in the process, they further ruin the message that is trying to be sent.

    I've said it before but I will again; these mass scale protests do nothing but frustrate the public and turn public opinion against students. Personally, I'd rather see the student unions of the Unis and Colleges organise small sit-ins or the likes, whereby a small group of students go along to governmental buildings or offices of FF people who caused the problems and distrupt them AND ONLY THEM! There'd be no room for violence since a small group could be watched over, and any outbreaks could be instantly denounced by the small group. Political parties could **** right off since a small group can make sure they don't interfere. And most importantly, you're not punishing the entire public by clogging up the streets, doing damage, etc.


  • #46
    freeze4real
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭freeze4real


    The student fee and grant should be reformed.

    Depending on your results each one should get an allocated percentage of the grant.

    E.g after Christmas send your results to the grant office depending on how good it's you should get most or all of it.

    If its poor e.g 45% downward you should get 40% of it.

    Thise who don't deserve it ate getting it and using it to fund their petrol for their cars or pay for their next parties.


    Its about time the government woke up. An I up for an increase in fees ? No but grant has to be reformed.


  • #47
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    I wouldn't be one who uses arguements about lazy students or get a job, but I have argued in the past that protests like the one being proposed here ARE a waste of time.

    The problem with these protests is the message they send. They preach a message of wanting to protect the education of the poor while being nearly completly led and organised by people with "posh" accents. And its not realistic in this day and age to expect things to remain the same as they were 5 or 10 years ago. The problem with these protests then is that the protesters rarely actually campaign on a stable, workable message; rather than trying to help shape the reintroduction of fees to be fair to a large majority and target those who can easily pay the fees, they go with a blanket "no fees" statement which is going to get nowhere, either with the government or the public who you need on your side.

    Then, you have the fact these protests WILL be hijacked, by a mix of ****ers who will cause violent trouble and by extreme political groups who most normal people want nothing to do with, and in the process, they further ruin the message that is trying to be sent.

    I've said it before but I will again; these mass scale protests do nothing but frustrate the public and turn public opinion against students. Personally, I'd rather see the student unions of the Unis and Colleges organise small sit-ins or the likes, whereby a small group of students go along to governmental buildings or offices of FF people who caused the problems and distrupt them AND ONLY THEM! There'd be no room for violence since a small group could be watched over, and any outbreaks could be instantly denounced by the small group. Political parties could **** right off since a small group can make sure they don't interfere. And most importantly, you're not punishing the entire public by clogging up the streets, doing damage, etc.

    when have student protests turned violent in ireland. There was a small row when some tried to organise a sit in in the dept of finance last time but it hardly caused much damage.

    whether they have posh accents or not does not impact on their arguement and asking them to help reshape the spending and facilitate the introduction of fair fees is asking a third party to help with government policy. whereas they are against brining them in full stop.

    Thats actually how you approach a negotiation, if your starting point is we will help you re introduce fees you have no hope of getting any of your demands as will doing nothing. you start from a no fees standpoint and give your reasons, if your reasons are valid but it cant be afforded then a fairer solution can be introduced rather than the easiest solution.

    Quinn is a guy who spearheaded free third level education in the first place, I believe personally he is willing to listen to the arguments of the protesters


  • #48
    steve_kav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭steve_kav


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Totally approve of this and will try my best to make it.
    HOWEVER:
    Why has there been so little marketing for this event? :confused:
    First I heard about it was yesterday, the supposed Facebook page for it redirects to the Ask Your TD campaign and makes no mention of any march next week, where is the mass postering and marketing which accompanied the last one?

    These events can't succeed unless the advertising for them becomes omnipresent at least a week (in my opinion) before the event itself.

    I cant speak for other colleges but we have a massive campaign in LIT to get people to go.


  • #49
    steve_kav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭steve_kav


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    People did not vote for Labour party policies at the last general election. Labour only got 37 seats, Fine Gael 76. The programme for government reflects that.

    Neither party's manifesto is being implemented. A programme for government is being implemented. That is called politics.

    If you want to protest someone, maybe protest Fianna Fail's head office for screwing this country over and calling in the EU-IMF. Remember that Labour introduced free 3rd level with Ruairi Quinn as Finance minister and Niamh Breathnach as Education minister. That is something they're both proud of. They would not be doing this unless it was necessary to get this country back into economic sovereignty.

    Maybe you should ask the USI 'leaders' their political affiliations?? Most of them are Fianna Fail stooges sponging off students contributions to keep them in a job.

    Well if the government now detest the cuts made by the last government so much then why don't they just reverse it all and make the cuts that they feel are necessary.


  • #50
    steve_kav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭steve_kav


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    We need the fees to pay for more teachers of English.

    I don't currently study English and I dont plan to.


  • #51
    steve_kav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭steve_kav


    sensibleken wrote: »
    I wouldnt waste my time OP. People in this forum think all protest is worthless, that all causes other than whinging on the internet are bogus, That everybody should just look after No.1 and fúck everyone else, and they are perfectly happy to accept whatever the unelected troika dictate.

    but dont take it to heart, theres people in the real world who arent as apathetic

    I don't take anything to heart. I came here for opinions and i'm happy to be getting opinions of all kinds :)


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  • #52
    FinnLizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 424 ✭✭FinnLizzy


    Jaysus, the bitterness is 90 on this thread.

    The people who I'd be worried about are the families who earn slightly too much to avail of the full grant.


  • #53
    Seren_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭Seren_


    SugarCoat wrote: »
    I know some of you may be be angry at me for suggesting this but...What if the every university student paid an extra €1000 and every IT student pay an extra €500?The universities generally have students from more privilaged backgrounds and the costs are far far greater than the ITs for things like upkeep of the building,lecturer's pay etc.While the ITs are generally low cost and sustainable.

    I see where you're coming from, but just because someone attends a university does not necessarily mean they are from a more privileged background (I know you said generally, but I'm just pointing this out for the thread :p). People decide to apply to a university or IT depending on what course they are interested in. I'm from a working class background, but I wanted to study arts (awaiting the haters :pac:) and I couldn't study that in the IT near where I live, although it would have made things a lot easier financially if I had have been able to.
    steve_kav wrote: »
    I cant speak for other colleges but we have a massive campaign in LIT to get people to go.

    It's the same here in Maynooth, the place is literally covered in posters.
    FinnLizzy wrote: »
    Jaysus, the bitterness is 90 on this thread.

    The people who I'd be worried about are the families who earn slightly too much to avail of the full grant.

    I would also be worried about people from such families, especially since the grant awarding authorities are so rigid re: the payment levels i.e. even if you are only €2 over the limit you won't get a grant (this happened to someone I know).

    This march is extremely important and as many people as possible need to attend, no matter what are your views on your SU/the USI. It's not them who want to bring in fees. And yes, I know the country's finances are in dire straits. But is there not other places money can be cut from? We could start with cutting the pay of some heads of state bodies and politicians, some of who's salaries are scandalous in the current climate. Increasing education funding is one of the best ways to get out of recession.


  • #54
    saa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭saa


    Protect the grant, free fee's but for fewers people, I'm sorry but not everyone can be paid by the tax payer to attend college, I want it to but I don't believe it can happen for those coming from families or under 23 coming to college alone financially should be protected.

    I would love to see everyone being able to attend but its not feisable, its either less people go with a sustainable amount to live on or the same number and many more people fall into trouble.

    But then there is also the issue if we are not paying for these young people to go to college are we instead paying for their dole?


  • #55
    Seren_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭Seren_


    saa wrote: »
    But then there is also the issue if we are not paying for these young people to go to college are we instead paying for their dole?

    Exactly. It's not as if it's easy to get a job these days, especially if you don't have some sort of higher education. It would probably work out cheaper for the tazpayer fo fund 3 years of a degree course than it would to fund 3 years of dole payments for someone, as well as the other social welfare payments one can get whilst unemployed (medical card, rent allowance etc).


  • #56
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    steve_kav wrote: »
    Fact: Graduates on average pay 70% more tax over there their working lives than non-graduates.

    No it isn't.
    Those that immediately emigrate pay nothing.

    Maybe there should be a claw-back clause, those who emigrate have to pay the total cost of the course.
    We shouldn't be training up people for other countries.


  • #57
    facemelter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭facemelter


    Students seem to believe that they have a right to a college education , a lot of people in the past didn't get one due to financial constraints and now students want the people to pay for theirs !!! madness ( and I'm a student !!:eek: ) A college degree is an investment and I see students everyday pissing it away !! , Im in a small course and so when people are absent it noticeable , and most people in my course would only come in for several lectures a day and would be at home or in bed for the rest !! , my parents pay my fees and I do appreciate it greatly , thats why I feel I have to do my best because I try not to take it for granted ! ( and in case there are any gramatical errors , no i'm not studying English :P )


  • #58
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    facemelter wrote: »
    Students seem to believe that they have a right to a college education , a lot of people in the past didn't get one due to financial constraints and now students want the people to pay for theirs !!! madness ( and I'm a student !!:eek: ) A college degree is an investment and I see students everyday pissing it away !! , Im in a small course and so when people are absent it noticeable , and most people in my course would only come in for several lectures a day and would be at home or in bed for the rest !! , my parents pay my fees and I do appreciate it greatly , thats why I feel I have to do my best because I try not to take it for granted ! ( and in case there are any gramatical errors , no i'm not studying English :P )

    I got a college education paid for by the tax payer and i expect to pay for the next generations through my taxes. An educated populace is benificial for all of society, its not just about personal advancement


  • #59
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Jesus the generalisations in this thread are amazing. I love being referred to as a wanker just because I'm getting a "free" 3rd Level education like anyone who's gone to college in the past 15 years.
    I worked my ass off to get into my course. I'm not rich or poor but my parents have enough to get me through college now. If there is €5000 fees then I really can't see how I can continue. I don't go out every night of the week like some know-it-alls here like to assume. Infact the ironic thing is that those who don't do much in college and go out every night, are the ones who can well afford to stay in college. They're the ones with the money to be going to clubs multiple nights a week.
    Convenient for those who've already gotten their free college education to preach about the need for fees from their high horse. We spend something like €1.6 billion on college education every year. Surely that's the best investment we can make?


  • #60
    Haelium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    I think we should have a system whereby you must pay back the cost of your college education if you emmigrate. Graduates who stay in the country to work here are productive members of society who benefit everybody in the country, punishing them for being educated is just pointless.


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  • #61
    Haelium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    I plan to study either computer science or engineering. From what my friends have told me, I'll be in college 9-5 most days and won't have time for partying.

    I get the feeling that many people in this thread have a view of college generated from watching American movies.


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