Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 03:44PM

ormond lad wrote: »

someone on mfs said that at training this morning it looked like D.Ryan was playing alongside Paulie with a back row of POM, Ronan and Coughlan, also Hurley was at full back with Barnes in the centre with Mafi, they were the combinations used this morning for all line outs and scrums etc
DOC, Leamy, Fogarty, Bull, Archer were used as the opposition

If that is the case we are doomed.

phog · 09-11-2011 03:45PM

vinny chase wrote: »

Not really.

Looks extensive, but lads like Hurley, Borlase, Dave O'Callaghan, Scanlon, Dineen, Cusack and Smith are hardly bit losses for Munster.

I grant you the other guys are losses, especially as you're missing Sherry & Flannery in the same position, and arguably Jones & Earls likewise, but it's not quite as extensive as it looks.

Munster have to field 46 players this week-end - H/C and B&I cup so overall those injuries are big losses.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 09-11-2011 03:46PM

A lot of people really overestimate Kidneys pull on the provinces.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wallace has definitely started at 10 for Ulster when pressure was put on Ulster to facilitate it...

I don't think that meddling would be allowed for a Heineken Cup game though. (don't think/hope)

Kidney went to head coach in Ulster at the start of the season and said give Wallace 3 or 4 games at 10 this season. No specific meddeling just a request to do it 3 or 4 times in a whole season made at the start. He didn't insist on days or weeks or anything else.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Kidney asked for Ryan to be played at 6 at the end of last season, if we were forced to pick him in the league final i think it's possible a HEC pool match is also up for meddling.

No one forced McGahan to play Ryan at 6 in the league final. In Febuary Kidney went to Joe Tony and Eric and said could you give Donnacha Mike and Kevin 3 or 4 league games at whichever of lock and 6 they play less.

Leamy was in a period of bad form so Donnacha Ryan did well at 6 and forced his claim on the jersey for the close of the season.

vinny chase · 09-11-2011 04:01PM

phog wrote: »

Munster have to field 46 players this week-end - H/C and B&I cup so overall those injuries are big losses.

They were listed under the squad for the Northampton game.

A squad they wouldn't have been in contention for even had they been fit.

You knew exactly what I meant.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 04:02PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

A lot of people really overestimate Kidneys pull on the provinces.

Kidney went to head coach in Ulster at the start of the season and said give Wallace 3 or 4 games at 10 this season. No specific meddeling just a request to do it 3 or 4 times in a whole season made at the start. He didn't insist on days or weeks or anything else.

No one forced McGahan to play Ryan at 6 in the league final. In Febuary Kidney went to Joe Tony and Eric and said could you give Donnacha Mike and Kevin 3 or 4 league games at whichever of lock and 6 they play less.

Leamy was in a period of bad form so Donnacha Ryan did well at 6 and forced his claim on the jersey for the close of the season.

That's not how it was described in one of the pre-RWC articles but I'll take your words for it.

wixfjord · 09-11-2011 04:06PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

That's not how it was described in one of the pre-RWC articles but I'll take your words for it.

Link?
Did it say that Kidney asked for Ryan to be played at 6 in the ML final?m

touts · 09-11-2011 04:10PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

[QUOTE='[Jackass];75379697']Chambers dropped. That's interesting. Is he going to be another lame duck at centre?

Looking forward to seeing how Barnes does.

If Chambers is dropped, it could easily be Kidney pulling rank and asking Munster to play an Irish qualified 13.[/Quote]

Or it could simply be that now they have had a close look at him it turned out he had been gathering dust in the bargain bin of the Queensland Reds transfer list for a good reason. On Friday Mafi was by far our most creative and threatening centre and usually that only happens when the other centre has been sin-binned.

09-11-2011 04:14PM

touts wrote: »

Or it could simply be that now they have had a close look at him it turned out he had been gathering dust in the bargain bin of the Queensland Reds transfer list for a good reason. On Friday Mafi was by far our most creative and threatening centre and usually that only happens when the other centre has been sin-binned.

nah I thought Chambers looked ok, looked like a guy who hasn't had a chance to get a feel for the guys around him, and probably will take a while to settle.

Certainly wouldn't judge him bar advising others to give him some time at this stage.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 04:15PM

wixfjord wrote: »

Link?
Did it say that Kidney asked for Ryan to be played at 6 in the ML final?m

Don't have the link to hand.

ed7890 · 09-11-2011 04:18PM

vinny chase wrote: »

They were listed under the squad for the Northampton game.

A squad they wouldn't have been in contention for even had they been fit.

You knew exactly what I meant.

Hurley would probably have been in contention for a place if not for being injured all season. The plan would certainly have been for him to be in contention now, but he's just so injury prone.

Borlase to a lesser extent, cause when he has played he's looked poor, but there was hope he could make an impact also.

jacothelad · 09-11-2011 04:23PM

vinny chase wrote: »

How much does this happen, I wonder?

If I was McGahan and Kidney attempted to do that I'd tell him to f***** off. Granted he can advise and stuff, and inquire, and even request, but I don't think he can dictate who starts the game.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wallace has definitely started at 10 for Ulster when pressure was put on Ulster to facilitate it...

I don't think that meddling would be allowed for a Heineken Cup game though. (don't think/hope)

As Wallace was/is a centrally contracted player, his employers, the IRFU can dictate when and where he plays. What Ciaran says above is a little inaccurate. Wallace had to play 3 games at 10 on the orders of the IRFU. It was up to McLaughlin to select which games in which to do it. If a player is not on a central contract a request can reasonably be made to a head coach in regard to selection and position. Kidney also did something similar with Fitz at 15.

Podge_irl · 09-11-2011 04:31PM

Non-centrally contracted players are still technically employees of the IRFU.

Podge_irl · 09-11-2011 04:31PM

Non-centrally contracted players are still technically employees of the IRFU.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 04:34PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Non-centrally contracted players are still technically employees of the IRFU.

True, but they don't seem subject to quite as much meddling.

What really worries me this season is Kidney seems to rate Ronan. I hope against hope he isn't tying our hands about dropping him.

Fireball07 · 09-11-2011 04:39PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Some injury list in fairness, interesting to see Ryan named among the second rows.

depressing to think what we might have managed with Jones and Earls fit.

Not to mention Wallace. If Leinster were to lose Nacewa, Strauss, Cronin and O'Brien alongside BOD, they'd feel the losses too. Any team would- the importance of those 3 players + 1 of Sherry/Flannery is huge simply because the backup is not on the same level.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If Chambers is dropped, it could easily be Kidney pulling rank and asking Munster to play an Irish qualified 13.

Barnes has been fairly impressive recently though, so it's a deserved start imo.

ormond lad wrote: »

someone on mfs said that at training this morning it looked like D.Ryan was playing alongside Paulie with a back row of POM, Ronan and Coughlan, also Hurley was at full back with Barnes in the centre with Mafi, they were the combinations used this morning for all line outs and scrums etc
DOC, Leamy, Fogarty, Bull, Archer were used as the opposition

I thought Leamy was decent enough the last day. And he's certainly better than Ronan. POM should be at 7...

Podge_irl · 09-11-2011 04:40PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

True, but they don't seem subject to quite as much meddling.

That may equally be because non-centrally contracted players just generally aren't as good so it's less of an issue. But yes, they seem less susceptible to meddling.

I would be firmly of the opinion that the national coach should, apart from drastic circumstances, stay the hell out of provincial selection. Especially when it's between two IQ players.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 04:43PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

That may equally be because non-centrally contracted players just generally aren't as good so it's less of an issue. But yes, they seem less susceptible to meddling.

I would be firmly of the opinion that the national coach should, apart from drastic circumstances, stay the hell out of provincial selection. Especially when it's between two IQ players.

Someone posted the last day that between injuries and IRFU interference, POC has only started 15 games for Munster in the last two seasons. One of Europe's best players and Munster rarely have him, madness.

bamboozle · 09-11-2011 04:51PM

Fireball07 wrote: »

Not to mention Wallace. If Leinster were to lose Nacewa, Strauss, Cronin and O'Brien alongside BOD, they'd feel the losses too. Any team would- the importance of those 3 players + 1 of Sherry/Flannery is huge simply because the backup is not on the same level.

Barnes has been fairly impressive recently though, so it's a deserved start imo.

I thought Leamy was decent enough the last day. And he's certainly better than Ronan. POM should be at 7...

i dont think comparing Wallace, Flannery, Jones & Sherry to SOB, Strauss, Nacwea & Cronin is comparing like with like. Wallace is 35 Munster should have been planning for his departure for 2 years, Flannery hasnt had a run of games in 2 years, Jones hasnt to my knowledge started a HC game nor has Sherry.

09-11-2011 04:53PM

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think comparing Wallace, Flannery, Jones & Sherry to SOB, Strauss, Nacwea & Cronin is comparing like with like. Wallace is 35 Munster should have been planning for his departure for 2 years, Flannery hasnt had a run of games in 2 years, Jones hasnt to my knowledge started a HC game nor has Sherry.

Wallace SOB - fair comparison
Flannery Strauss - fair comparison
Sherry Cronin - fair

Jones Nacewa though, is a ridiculous comparison, perhaps comparing him to someone with a similar amount of appearances would be more apt, David Kearney?

The point is valid though, we would feel the loss of those players quite badly, and that's what Munster have to deal with at the moment.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 04:56PM

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think comparing Wallace, Flannery, Jones & Sherry to SOB, Strauss, Nacwea & Cronin is comparing like with like. Wallace is 35 Munster should have been planning for his departure for 2 years, Flannery hasnt had a run of games in 2 years, Jones hasnt to my knowledge started a HC game nor has Sherry.

I don't see how it's not comparable, all four are crucial members of our team. Flannery and Wallace would be our main carriers in the pack and Earls and Jones would be our most dangerous backs.

thomond2006 · 09-11-2011 05:01PM

totallegend wrote: »

Source?? Might just be that he arrived too late to really bed into the team, he hasn't looked bad so far but nor has he blown anyone away.

Anyway, good news for Barnes and good news for development of younger Irish guys, if true.

I was at training yesterday and Chambers wasn't in the first choice backline that were practising their moves from set piece.

The great thing about Chambers' contract is it's short term, if he doesn't work out we can bin him with little trouble/expense. It's still early in his Munster career and he didn't get much opportunity against Leinster in attack.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 05:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wallace SOB - fair comparison
Flannery Strauss - fair comparison
Sherry Cronin - fair

Jones Nacewa though, is a ridiculous comparison, perhaps comparing him to someone with a similar amount of appearances would be more apt, David Kearney?

The point is valid though, we would feel the loss of those players quite badly, and that's what Munster have to deal with at the moment.

Wrt to Jones v. nacewa, obviously Nacewa is a different class to him but Jones is by some distance Munster's best fullback, creatively, in a back line without much creativity. Nacewa might be leinster's most potent attacker but there's others there to help him. Losing Earls and Jones effectively means Munster's backs are even more pedestrain.

Fireball07 · 09-11-2011 06:14PM

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think comparing Wallace, Flannery, Jones & Sherry to SOB, Strauss, Nacwea & Cronin is comparing like with like. Wallace is 35 Munster should have been planning for his departure for 2 years, Flannery hasnt had a run of games in 2 years, Jones hasnt to my knowledge started a HC game nor has Sherry.

Maybe they should have been but they haven't and that's the point. His importance to the team is massive. Wallace is the best back row Munster have available, SOB is for Leinster.
Sherry hasn't started a HC game but neither has Cronin, so I think that's a fair comparison.

And as amazo says below, Nacewa is of an undoubted higher quality than Jones but Jones was hugely impressive last season and Johne Murphy just isn't capable of the same standard. He's decent enough, fairly solid but lacks Jones creativity and explosiveness.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wallace SOB - fair comparison
Flannery Strauss - fair comparison
Sherry Cronin - fair

Jones Nacewa though, is a ridiculous comparison, perhaps comparing him to someone with a similar amount of appearances would be more apt, David Kearney?

The point is valid though, we would feel the loss of those players quite badly, and that's what Munster have to deal with at the moment.

David Kearney is not as important to Leinster as Jones is to Munster. Not even close. Jones is a certain starter for Munster if he's fit and arguably our best outside back in that case. David Kearney won't start the crucial games at this point. I'm making the comparison in terms of relative importance.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Wrt to Jones v. nacewa, obviously Nacewa is a different class to him but Jones is by some distance Munster's best fullback, creatively, in a back line without much creativity. Nacewa might be leinster's most potent attacker but there's others there to help him. Losing Earls and Jones effectively means Munster's backs are even more pedestrain.

And this is the real killer.....Hurley and Murphy offer pretty much no creativity. Earls and Jones will make line-breaks.

Podge_irl · 09-11-2011 06:30PM

Comparing players in this regard isn't really all that fruitful. You could make an argument either way for most of them. One could say that Wallace is a poor comparison with SOB because SOB is currently a better player and thus is more important. You could equally say Leinster have an infinitely better backrow squad and thus SOB is less important.

Both teams have injury problems. Munster's are probably slightly worse though both should still be able to get through their groups (especially Leinster). This is where squads come into it. Nearly all the injury worries are long-term and that means they can plan for them.

I would, to be honest, be more likely to compare the loss of Earls and Jones for Munster to the loss of Cullen got Leinster. The issue isn't so much the quality of the person lost, it's the lack of quality of the replacements.

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 07:00PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Comparing players in this regard isn't really all that fruitful. You could make an argument either way for most of them. One could say that Wallace is a poor comparison with SOB because SOB is currently a better player and thus is more important. You could equally say Leinster have an infinitely better backrow squad and thus SOB is less important.

Both teams have injury problems. Munster's are probably slightly worse though both should still be able to get through their groups (especially Leinster). This is where squads come into it. Nearly all the injury worries are long-term and that means they can plan for them.

I would, to be honest, be more likely to compare the loss of Earls and Jones for Munster to the loss of Cullen got Leinster. The issue isn't so much the quality of the person lost, it's the lack of quality of the replacements.

Leinster will walk their group. They could play their A team in some games and win, imo. Munster could get out of this group, but odds are against it, I can't see us winning on Saturday.

If Ronan is starting I think McGahan is either under orders or wants to get fired.

ed7890 · 09-11-2011 07:11PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If Ronan is starting I think McGahan is either under orders or wants to get fired.

Dont know what orders he could be under, it's not like Ronan is in the Ireland team

Podge_irl · 09-11-2011 07:19PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Leinster will walk their group. They could play their A team in some games and win, imo. Munster could get out of this group, but odds are against it, I can't see us winning on Saturday.

If Ronan is starting I think McGahan is either under orders or wants to get fired.

I'd be amazed if he's under orders. Kidney does like Ronan but he's nowhere on the international radar. He wasn't in the top 7 backrowers coming into the RWC. Even with Wallace gone, Jennings came in and then saw no game time. I think McG is just a poor selector.

I think, being realistic, if Leinster played as well as they did last year they would blow their group out of the water. Even with their injury problems they should be ridiculously short odds to qualify from their group. Munster certainly have a chance if they win this weekend. I wouldn't be backing them though

Amazotheamazing · 09-11-2011 07:26PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd be amazed if he's under orders. Kidney does like Ronan but he's nowhere on the international radar. He wasn't in the top 7 backrowers coming into the RWC. Even with Wallace gone, Jennings came in and then saw no game time. I think McG is just a poor selector.

I think, being realistic, if Leinster played as well as they did last year they would blow their group out of the water. Even with their injury problems they should be ridiculously short odds to qualify from their group. Munster certainly have a chance if they win this weekend. I wouldn't be backing them though

Ronan played for Ireland in the RWC warm-ups. He's on the radar, though I'm not sure why, tbf to him, he's usually played above himself in an Irish jersey, it's his Munster form that worries me.

vinny chase · 09-11-2011 09:50PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'd be amazed if he's under orders. Kidney does like Ronan but he's nowhere on the international radar. He wasn't in the top 7 backrowers coming into the RWC. Even with Wallace gone, Jennings came in and then saw no game time. I think McG is just a poor selector.

I think, being realistic, if Leinster played as well as they did last year they would blow their group out of the water. Even with their injury problems they should be ridiculously short odds to qualify from their group. Munster certainly have a chance if they win this weekend. I wouldn't be backing them though

I dunno about that.

It's a lot tougher to build yourself up to perform against the likes of Glasgow and Montpelier (no disrespect intended towards those teams) than it is for teams like Clermont-Auvergne and Saracens (who at that point were running away with the AP). Leinster could suffer a little from the fact that they'll be expected to win every game without much bother, and that's never a good mindset for a team going out.

I know people will say these guys are professionals, but this is a problem that usually affects Irish sports teams. Munster always thrived as well when their backs were to the wall.

Podge_irl · 09-11-2011 10:00PM

vinny chase wrote: »

I dunno about that.

It's a lot tougher to build yourself up to perform against the likes of Glasgow and Montpelier (no disrespect intended towards those teams) than it is for teams like Clermont-Auvergne and Saracens (who at that point were running away with the AP). Leinster could suffer a little from the fact that they'll be expected to win every game without much bother, and that's never a good mindset for a team going out.

I know people will say these guys are professionals, but this is a problem that usually affects Irish sports teams. Munster always thrived as well when their backs were to the wall.

It is, but it's something I would expect Leinster to do. I don't think there is any point beating around the bush with this. Leinster weren't just the best team last year, they were the best team of the last 3 years at least imo. I imagine they won't be quite at that level this year but they're still going to be overwhelming favourites to qualify. It is, in all fairness, quite an easy group and if Leinster don't qualify then there is something seriously wrong. They have to get in the mindset not that they're expected to win but that they need to prove why they're expected to win. Tricky, but I expect Schmidt to do it.

Anyway, this is wildly off topic. To go back to the original point, it's senseless to compare Munster's injuries with Leinster's as it's quite clear theirs are having a much larger impact through a combination of less able replacements and a harder group.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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