Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

djPSB · 07-11-2011 06:11PM

Some people need to wake up and smell the roses.

Suarez hasn't scored in four league games, yet he is being praised no end and can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

Carroll, on the other hand, has scored twice in the same period, and is being absolutely slated. He is not that bad, and being used as a scapegoat.

Our main problems are in midfield. Both our defence and attack are good enough for a top four team but our midfield is not producing the goods.

If we have a stagnant central midfield partnership like Adam and Lucas, we need our wingers to be helping out the attack and chipping in with both assists and goals. They are doing neither at the moment. I thought Adam played very well against Swansea and he gave a few defence splitting passes.
But he doesn't get forward enough into the opposition box.

We need to but some quality wingers in January, and these players are not available in England at the minute,

SlickRic · 07-11-2011 06:12PM

Devilman40k wrote: »

We're not aiming for these 2 yet though....my problem is that the teams we are aiming for, Arsenal and Spurs BOTH have strikers who will guarantee more than 15 goals a season and have better chance/conversion ratios as a result.

VP, after being at Arsenal how long?...he is now that striker in the last 18 months.

Spurs do not have that striker. they have VDV, and they have a brilliant wide supporting cast in the likes of Lennon and Bale.

the one thing they don't have is that striker. Ade isn't him. nor is Defoe. they're a decent supporting cast, but nothing that's a guarantee.

Nothing I have seen from Carroll suggests he has the ability or attitude to become a 20/25 goals a season striker which a £35m fee should buy you.

it's the fault of the money-men and Kenny for sanctioning that amount of money.

he's a £12m striker at most, and that is the standard I will judge him on right now. if i judge him as the 8th most expensive player of all time, all i'll ever do is begrudge him, because presently he isn't world class, and the rest of the team isn't being built to support him properly.

i agree, that is what £35m should buy you...i question the Board and Kenny for that judgment call. not Andy. i'm delighted to have him at the club, and I'll judge him on his productivity over the course of his contract, not the first few months, much of which has been stop start due to injury and not being selected to start consistently.

joe123 · 07-11-2011 06:18PM

djPSB wrote: »

Some people need to wake up and smell the roses.

Suarez hasn't scored in four league games, yet he is being praised no end and can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

Carroll, on the other hand, has scored twice in the same period, and is being absolutely slated. He is not that bad, and being used as a scapegoat.

Our main problems are in midfield. Both our defence and attack are good enough for a top four team but our midfield is not producing the goods.

If we have a stagnant central midfield partnership like Adam and Lucas, we need our wingers to be helping out the attack and chipping in with both assists and goals. They are doing neither at the moment. I thought Adam played very well against Swansea and he gave a few defence splitting passes.
But he doesn't get forward enough into the opposition box.

We need to but some quality wingers in January, and these players are not available in England at the minute,

Ah here go way out of that! First of all Suarez is not an out an out goalscorer, he was meant to play alongside Torres.

Secondly Suarez has been absolutely immense in nearly every game this season. Because he has one off day or isn't a regular goalscorer he deserves the same criticism as Carroll? Absolute rubbish.

Carroll has been rubbish in nearly every game this season and has only started improving lately. Carroll has done nothing so far.

To even suggest Suarez and Carroll are equally at fault is crazy.

Edit: and my biggest gripe about Carroll is his sheer lack of technique. He has one of the worst first and second touches in the squad. In a team that's trying to play pass and move.

I said it way way back, think it was after the arsenal game where Suarez and meireles changed the game. We play better football when Carroll is on the bench.

K-9 · 07-11-2011 06:19PM

Devilman40k wrote: »

Nothing I have seen from Carroll suggests he has the ability or attitude to become a 20/25 goals a season striker which a £35m fee should buy you.

Tbh, I've no problem about his attitude.

5starpool · 07-11-2011 06:20PM

I was at the match on Saturday and haven't had the chance to post yet or read back, so probably a bit of repetition here.

It goes without saying that Henderson was horrendously bad, and the worse he played, the more frustrated he got, and then played worse again. He was coming in off the wing way too often, and there was no real outlet in him. I was delighted when I saw Dirk out warming up vigourously just before the start of the second half.

Downing wasn't much better either, and went inside far too often as well, especially for someone who is considered an orthodox winger. Adam also had a poor game, and Lucas was below standard. Pretty much everyone played below par, except Enrique I thought, and possibly the centre halves.

The Swansea fans were brilliant throughout, and some of the loudest away support I've heard at a pretty muted Anfield, as it often is in those disjointed displays. If Carroll puts away that easy chance early doors though, who knows how it would have went, but if any team deserved to win, it wasn't Liverpool to be honest.

SlickRic · 07-11-2011 06:21PM

joe123 wrote: »

Carroll has been rubbish in nearly every game this season and has only started improving lately. Carroll has done nothing so far.

that's just not true, enough of the hyperbole.

he's not been worth £35m yet. but he's been decent so far. nothing close to King Luis, but he's been decent.

including against Swansea, bar the miss. he did everything that could be asked of him, bar the miss, but nobody was around him to take advantage of any of his good play, be it hold-up play or knock downs.

and again, he's played a fraction of the game time for various reasons.

Mr Alan · 07-11-2011 06:26PM

Tusky wrote: »

1. Stop lumping any fans who have criticisms in with the idiots who were calling for Rafas head. I never called for his head and neither did many others.

Have you not noticed that the same people who were calling for his head are now those saying, "there has got to be very serious questions asked about the people running this team", "the likes of Kuyt, Lucas, Henderson, Carroll are not good enough to wear the shirt of Liverpool".

They're a step away from calling for his head.

There's nothing wrong with "criticism", but as fans, this forum seems to be particularly ott. Which is a shame.

We should be looking for a significant improvement on last seasons 7th place finish - but if anything, we have gone backwards.

We're on course for an improvement, we're 3 points off 4th, 6 points off third for crying out loud & everyone seems agreed that we we've a lot more to come from our team & players with a good chunk of our first 11 being very new to the club.

We're averaging 1.73 points per match this season. That'd equate to about 66 points over the course of the season if we were to maintain our form now for the rest of the season. That'll be within a whisker of 4th place imo. We got 58 last season.

I think we'll improve our form over the season & we'll pick up more points than that which will leave us in a great position to get a top 4 place.

However, you & other seem ready to hit the panic buttons. I just don't get it.

Did people expect we'd go from being relegation canditates at Christmas last year, to swatting teams away with ease this season? It actually genuinely appears that's what some fans were expecting?!

There'll be times over the season we play excellent stuff & people are very happy & think we're amazing. League push! Top 4 with ease! etc etc.

Then there'll be times when we struggle & people think we're hurtling backwards - not a chance of top 4 etc etc.

People just need to try to remain a little grounded.

mixednuts wrote: »

You have said this now in the past few posts ...who are you referring to ?

Those who were most critical in the match thread over the weekend were, in general, those who've been the most reactionary & spouted genuinely embarrasing things on this forum over the last few years.

Leiva · 07-11-2011 06:27PM

I might be guilty of jumping the gun but there will come a tipping point when it comes to Andy Carroll .

Yes the players purchased with Carroll in mind ( Downing & Adam) have not been exactly supplying the assists to help him become the player we all hope , but when the supply does start coming (which i expect to happen) and Andy fails to finish (which i have seen nothing to suggest otherwise either with the head or feet) then he will become un-startable.

The more games he cant be started in the quicker he may be moved on , or he himself pines more for a Newcastle return.

I truly hope i am proved 100% wrong in my prediction but there has been nothing shown by him to suggest he can reach those expectations .

Only time will tell.

joe123 · 07-11-2011 06:28PM

SlickRic wrote: »

that's just not true, enough of the hyperbole.

he's not been worth £35m yet. but he's been decent so far. nothing close to King Luis, but he's been decent.

including against Swansea, bar the miss. he did everything that could be asked of him, bar the miss, but nobody was around him to take advantage of any of his good play, be it hold-up play or knock downs.

and again, he's played a fraction of the game time for various reasons.

Carroll has only shown improvement in the last few games. And he was pretty useless against Swansea to be honest but alot can be contributed to the awful midfield. His miss was shocking.

And he's played a fraction of the games for a reason. He played awful, looked like he wasn't arsed, sluggish and just plain unfit.

I was delighted to see him score v everton and WBA but still needs massive massive improvement.

royaler83 · 07-11-2011 06:29PM

djPSB wrote: »

Some people need to wake up and smell the roses.

Suarez hasn't scored in four league games, yet he is being praised no end and can do no wrong in some peoples eyes.

I'm a Utd fan, suarez is class, would love to see him at utd, his movement and touch is unreal, think you are just looking for problems and I can tell you he is the least of them considering what ye have bought this year.

07-11-2011 06:29PM

5starpool wrote: »

I was at the match on Saturday and haven't had the chance to post yet or read back, so probably a bit of repetition here.

It goes without saying that Henderson was horrendously bad, and the worse he played, the more frustrated he got, and then played worse again. He was coming in off the wing way too often, and there was no real outlet in him. I was delighted when I saw Dirk out warming up vigourously just before the start of the second half.

Downing wasn't much better either, and went inside far too often as well, especially for someone who is considered an orthodox winger. Adam also had a poor game, and Lucas was below standard. Pretty much everyone played below par, except Enrique I thought, and possibly the centre halves.

The Swansea fans were brilliant throughout, and some of the loudest away support I've heard at a pretty muted Anfield, as it often is in those disjointed displays. If Carroll puts away that easy chance early doors though, who knows how it would have went, but if any team deserved to win, it wasn't Liverpool to be honest.

Spot on.

Enrique was the only outfield player that played well. If Downing would get his finger out we'd have a very strong left side.

argosy2006 · 07-11-2011 06:36PM

Need to take down the 'THIS IS ANFIELD'' sign and put this one up, as its what happens when our current group of players take the field,
While newcastle, spurs play with out a care in the world,

Hoki · 07-11-2011 06:38PM

I see absolutely nothing wrong with him going back to Newcastle during his free time to socialise. Thats where he grew up & where his friends are , his job is in Liverpool but his home is in Newcastle. Like whats already been said, its not as if they are worlds apart.

mike65 · 07-11-2011 06:39PM

People are now just repeating the same main points at this stage. And only 12 days left to keep doing so!

opr · 07-11-2011 06:42PM

I think what me miss most at present is a proper link man like a Modric, Silva or Mata type player. Someone who keeps the ball moving in the final third, is always looking to receive it even in tight areas, can pick a defense with his passes and offers a goal threat. Gerrard would have played this role but I think its a huge oversight that currently we have no one else left in the squad to play that type of role.

City suffered from similar problems last season when Silva didn't play. I remember when Carroll had his best performance in a red shirt City really struggled that night to get any hold on the game without Silva. While we are creating chances we rarely control games or have periods of sustained pressure.

Opr

Hoki · 07-11-2011 06:46PM

mike65 wrote: »

People are now just repeating the same main points at this stage. And only 12 days left to keep doing so!

What i wrote above was actually a reply to the last few pages of page 4, forgot i hadnt read page 5 yet, my bad

Chucky the tree · 07-11-2011 06:47PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Did people expect we'd go from being relegation canditates at Christmas last year, to swatting teams away with ease this season? It actually genuinely appears that's what some fans were expecting?!

I honestly expected that having spent over £100m on new players that we'd bea able to beat two of the promoted sides at Anfield. At the start of the season if I was asked to do a full season prediction 3 points at home to Norwich and Swansea would have been the most confident I would have been about any result at home. Silly me obviously. :rolleyes:

djPSB · 07-11-2011 06:48PM

joe123 wrote: »

Ah here go way out of that! First of all Suarez is not an out an out goalscorer, he was meant to play alongside Torres.

Secondly Suarez has been absolutely immense in nearly every game this season. Because he has one off day or isn't a regular goalscorer he deserves the same criticism as Carroll? Absolute rubbish.

Carroll has been rubbish in nearly every game this season and has only started improving lately. Carroll has done nothing so far.

To even suggest Suarez and Carroll are equally at fault is crazy.

Edit: and my biggest gripe about Carroll is his sheer lack of technique. He has one of the worst first and second touches in the squad. In a team that's trying to play pass and move.

I said it way way back, think it was after the arsenal game where Suarez and meireles changed the game. We play better football when Carroll is on the bench.

I am not blaming Carroll or Suarez. The criticism of Carroll is way over the top, and if the abuse continues don't be surprised if he hands in a transfer request before too long. And maybe a few 'supporters' would be delighted if this did happen, but it will be alot more painful when someone like Harry Redknapp signs him up at a cut price and turns him into one of the most feared strikers in England. He's 22 and I am willing to give him a chance to succeed unlike some other sections of the Liverpool support.

As I have already highlighted, our problems are in midfield. Quality wingers needed ASAP. If people look at the number of assists we have got from our so called wingers like Downing, Henderson, and Kuyt they will quickly realise where our problems lie.

Adam was hitting Carroll with good aerial diagonal passes the last day, but there wasn't a sign of a player supporting him. We really can't be expecting him to be winning the ball in the air and running on to his own knock downs. A bit of help from midfield is key.

Kess73 · 07-11-2011 06:50PM

Hoki wrote: »

I see absolutely nothing wrong with him going back to Newcastle during his free time to socialise. Thats where he grew up & where his friends are , his job is in Liverpool but his home is in Newcastle. Like whats already been said, its not as if they are worlds apart.

The reports that have been coming in for almost 9 months now is that he is still pretty much living in Newcastle, and doing a lot of socialising there, specifically in the Aspers where he gets photographed a lot, seemingly during the week. It has even been commented on by one of two pundits on tv that played for both Liverpool and Newcastle.

If a person was working in Dublin and was originally from Galway, do you think that spending a lot of time every week in Galway and socialising there at night would not have an effect on the person's ability to do their job during the day in Dublin?

What was being spoken of was not a case of going back for the odd day off or whatever but pretty much heading back there non stop and a good number of days every week.

Hoki · 07-11-2011 06:53PM

Selling Meireles has been the biggest mistake Kenny has made at the club. He would have been the perfect candidate to be getting on the end of Carrolls knockdowns , his unselfishness & eye for a pass in the final thrid of the pitch is sorely missing. It genuinely angers me to see him at Chelsea more so than Torres.

ilovelamp2000 · 07-11-2011 07:02PM

Kess73 wrote: »

The thing with Carroll is that it is meant to be the player himself that is unhappy with the move, and he has not settled at all in Liverpool and is still practically living and socialising in Newcastle.

Would like to see they guy get into a run of good form, but if there is truth in him being that homesick and that unable to settle, then things may not improve for the guy.

I'm hearing it's us that isn't happy with his on and off field performances.

djPSB · 07-11-2011 07:04PM

Kess73 wrote: »

The reports that have been coming in for almost 9 months now is that he is still pretty much living in Newcastle, and doing a lot of socialising there, specifically in the Aspers where he gets photographed a lot, seemingly during the week. It has even been commented on by one of two pundits on tv that played for both Liverpool and Newcastle.

If a person was working in Dublin and was originally from Galway, do you think that spending a lot of time every week in Galway and socialising there at night would not have an effect on the person's ability to do their job during the day in Dublin?

What was being spoken of was not a case of going back for the odd day off or whatever but pretty much heading back there non stop and a good number of days every week.

Where are these photographs??

daithijjj · 07-11-2011 07:06PM

Hoki wrote: »

Selling Meireles has been the biggest mistake Kenny has made at the club. He would have been the perfect candidate to be getting on the end of Carrolls knockdowns , his unselfishness & eye for a pass in the final thrid of the pitch is sorely missing. It genuinely angers me to see him at Chelsea more so than Torres.

Indeed. I have always thought the same. His portfolio in the team was one of 'create mayhem' for the opposition def mids and backs and he did it very well for the majority. People forget too easily how he was sorely missed at home to Spurs last season. Wouldnt surprise me if the club felt right now that it was a mistake but they probably hadnt thought Gerrard would have as much injury woe as he has had.

daithijjj · 07-11-2011 07:11PM

opr wrote: »

I think what me miss most at present is a proper link man like a Modric, Silva or Mata type player. Someone who keeps the ball moving in the final third, is always looking to receive it even in tight areas, can pick a defense with his passes and offers a goal threat. Gerrard would have played this role but I think its a huge oversight that currently we have no one else left in the squad to play that type of role.

City suffered from similar problems last season when Silva didn't play. I remember when Carroll had his best performance in a red shirt City really struggled that night to get any hold on the game without Silva. While we are creating chances we rarely control games or have periods of sustained pressure.

Opr

I think it was yourself who had some 'fun' with me over the summer about keeping or selling Meireles, i was a big fan of his then and still am, you just described him very well there. The moment he left i honestly felt we went from 4/1 to get 4th to about 10/1 imo (not actual odds but thats how it felt to me).

Kess73 · 07-11-2011 07:19PM

djPSB wrote: »

Where are these photographs??

There were some put up earlier in the season from the Aspers. Might have been by Paully D (apols to Paully if it was not him that was talking about Carroll at the Aspers and who put them up).

Plus a few popped up on a few fansites.

Mr Alan · 07-11-2011 07:24PM

Not doubting you Kess, but I've never seen any here.

Loads of mentions of them. But never seen em reproduced.

opr · 07-11-2011 07:27PM

daithijjj wrote: »

I think it was yourself who had some 'fun' with me over the summer about keeping or selling Meireles, i was a big fan of his then and still am, you just described him very well there. The moment he left i honestly felt we went from 4/1 to get 4th to about 10/1 imo (not actual odds but thats how it felt to me).

I did have some fun with it but that reciprocated on your side in regards Aquilani

I would have much preferred we had kept the latter and made that known. After it was clear that wasn't going to happen then obviously we needed to keep Meireles. I made it clear I was pretty distraught at losing Meireles once Aquilani was gone. I still don't think the player I described is Meireles but certainly he would have occupied that space in front of the two in midfield far better that any player we currently have in the squad while Gerrard is injured.

Opr

daithijjj · 07-11-2011 07:30PM

5starpool wrote: »

I was at the match on Saturday and haven't had the chance to post yet or read back, so probably a bit of repetition here.

It goes without saying that Henderson was horrendously bad, and the worse he played, the more frustrated he got, and then played worse again. He was coming in off the wing way too often, and there was no real outlet in him. I was delighted when I saw Dirk out warming up vigourously just before the start of the second half.

Downing wasn't much better either, and went inside far too often as well, especially for someone who is considered an orthodox winger. Adam also had a poor game, and Lucas was below standard. Pretty much everyone played below par, except Enrique I thought, and possibly the centre halves.

The Swansea fans were brilliant throughout, and some of the loudest away support I've heard at a pretty muted Anfield, as it often is in those disjointed displays. If Carroll puts away that easy chance early doors though, who knows how it would have went, but if any team deserved to win, it wasn't Liverpool to be honest.

Thats because his natural position is at centre mid. Theres a very good vid around somewhere, around 5 mins long, of his entire contributions in the home game to Bolton. Apart from one occasion where he put a great ball in to kuyt from wide, everything good he did was from the centre circle (and he did it pretty well).

Edit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60nwdlH1U8U

The lad should be competing with Lucas and Adam, every single inclination he has is to get involved more central. Kenny is playing him out of position and for me it is compounding other errors like not starting Downing/Kuyt on the right. Henderson did the exact same last year in that vid, at Stamford Bridge last year when they won 3-0, he was immense in there. Sick lookin at him on the right and when he is picked there, Kenny sometimes switches and he finds himself on the left, like at Stoke in the league and at the weekend just gone, his worst two games. Time to wake up, smell the coffee, we could use his dynamism in the centre as well.

skydish79 · 07-11-2011 07:35PM

Was castigated on here by a few for criticising Adam but yet again on saturday he doesnt control midfield, dont think he comes looking for the ball enough to start of moves, and he he shockin slow, have a look at the swansea chance which he blazed over the bar, Adam came into the camera shot after the bar was well into the Kop.

Adam has a great left peg on him, but I think if he's gonna continue to play he needs another central midfielder in with him, and Im not sure we can afford that particularly at home

Gerrard in place of him would make a huge difference, crying out for someone to quicken up the pace in the middle and link up defence and attack

On a positive note we are playing much better than last season, creating chances, going along quite nicely pity about the dropped points but its going to take time for the lads to knit together

You can just feel that a couple of good wins and our season could catch fire

Not nice to hear that there were some boos on Saturday

daithijjj · 07-11-2011 07:48PM

opr wrote: »

I did have some fun with it but that reciprocated on your side in regards Aquilani I would have much preferred we had kept the latter and made that known. After it was clear that wasn't going to happen then obviously we needed to keep Meireles. I made it clear I was pretty distraught at losing Meireles once Aquilani was gone. I still don't think the player I described is Meireles but certainly he would have occupied that space in front of the two in midfield far better that any player we currently have in the squad while Gerrard is injured.

Opr

Meireles was 'doing it' in a red shirt though last season, for me, Aquilani was a side issue, i had serious questions over whether he actually wanted to be in England at all, i didnt have those with Meireles and i think we should have tried our best to keep him which i dont think we did, and it was a mistake. He isnt what you would call a leader but i think his contribution in the final third was great. Just to pick out a snippet, at home to city when Carroll scored his two goals, last man to touch it was Meireles, i dont think you can teach what he gave us, you either have the thought processes or you dont. He had a few poor games like away at Villa last year but for the most part he was creating space and opportunities for others with his movement. We missed him when he didnt play.

Anyway, i think we need a player like him back in this team. Aquilani and Gerrard are not the answer medium to long term.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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