Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

YouTookMyName · 06-11-2011 12:20PM

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 12:39PM

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Well that is another £42 well spent, two in a row, we really need to start converting chances. I do not care that we are the team that hit the woodwork the most in the league or are the team that have most shots on target or are the team that have the striker with the most shots. Those stats are all stats for runner ups. We need top scorer, top assists etc etc.

Only a few points better off than we were at this stage last season, is Kenny that much better than Roy? Not really a debate for today, but pound for pound in the squad at the moment, probably not.

It begins.

Nuri Sahin · 06-11-2011 12:40PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Too narrow in the middle maybe?

Adam----Lucas----
Gerrard

Bellamy
Suarez
Carroll

Enrique and Johnson can than cover that flaw to a large extent especially in home games vs the likes of Swansea and Norwich. Bellamy would track back too. Suarez less so of course, and there is always Kuyt. Lucas it has always been noticeable gives so much support to the full backs in a game, namely the LB as well. Again, it's all about flexible formations anyway and adapting to situations. We did that last season but rarely seen that this season.

Crazy Horse 6 · 06-11-2011 12:54PM

tommyhaas wrote: »

If Torres was still here I think its fair to say we'd have quiet a few more points. The draws at home to Norwich, Swansea, Sunderland and Utd could easily have become wins with a clinical finisher in the side

To dismiss him on the basis of a few missed chances for Chelsea is foolish IMO, particularly given his record for us

A few missed chances? The guy a couple of matches apart has been absolute gash for Chelsea and that's not an anti Torres bias but just a fact. I think he would have offered us little tbh over the last year. Anyway **** him we have moved on and let's hope we can find a goal poacher out there in the January window.

tommyhaas · 06-11-2011 01:15PM

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

A few missed chances? The guy a couple of matches apart has been absolute gash for Chelsea and that's not an anti Torres bias but just a fact. I think he would have offered us little tbh over the last year. Anyway **** him we have moved on and let's hope we can find a goal poacher out there in the January window.

He wasn't absolute gash though immediately prior to leaving was he? I don't believe for a second that he just lost it over night.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion here on the merits of his sale or those of his replacement, just that in answer to a previous poster, I think he would have made a difference to the side this season

NabyLadistheman · 06-11-2011 01:16PM

The 'if Torres was still here' debate really is pointless. The player wanted to move, he did. Thats the end of it. Sur if Kenny was playing instead of managing we might have a few more points.

The reality is despite all the chances we have created we have been relatively poor in most of our home performances. Straight from half time yesterday everything was rushed. We have a relatively new team who are still settling in. Look at Utd yesterday, play poorly but still get the points. They have been doing it for years. That will come with experience

Kess73 · 06-11-2011 01:52PM

flahavaj wrote: »

It begins.

Not on my watch. :mad:;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhmHcR-2Sbg

th3 s1aught3r · 06-11-2011 02:15PM

monkey9 wrote: »

Completely agree!! It's not Carroll's fault he was bought for 35m. Forget the fee, he's a 22 year old kid who has been bought, not just for now, but the future. Just like Henderson!! We need to trust the management and give them time. Let them develop the squad. Give them time to grow! That means more than just this season and sh!tty results against the likes of Norwich and Swansea!

While I agree that some players have been bought with an eye to the future, surely they have to be producing the goods in the present. Carroll and Henderson cost megabucks by any standards, their not just kids coming up through the youth system we can play here and there to nurture them for a season or two

El Inho · 06-11-2011 02:15PM

surprised so many are speaking about posts..

im sick of posts...costin us points all over the shop!!!

RayCon · 06-11-2011 02:16PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's finishing them that's not happening.

Norwich - 25 chances, 15 on target
Swansea - 18 chances, 10 on target

Even the Utd game - 14 chances, 8 on target.

We've had 33 on target and only scored 3 times in the last three home games. That's very odd I think everyone will agree.

Plus, hitting the woodwork som many times this season doesn't help. !

Add to that we have a very poor return from corners ... with the exception of the Spurs and Arsenal games, we've won huge amounts of corners per game but did little with them ..

11 V's Swansea
10 V's WBA
10 V's Norwich
8 V's Man Utd
9 V's Everton
7 V's Wolves
1 V's Spurs *
12 V Stoke
12 V Bolton
5 V Arsenal
6 V Sunderland *

91 Corners so far ... how many goals scored from Corners ? Skirtels against Bolton ....... eh, can't think of another ?

Melion · 06-11-2011 02:20PM

Someone already said it but its time more people realised it. 4-4-2 is a dinosaur formation, there is no urgency in the team when its played. Its too "regimented" IMO. I think our attack should look something like this

Carroll

Suarez

Gerrard

Kuyt

Lucas----Adam

Downing and Henderson have done nothing to warrant a place in the starting 11 yet. Dirk has done nothing to warrant being dropped and its something i cant understand. If we were to go with something like this it means Suarez gets a free role to do whatever he likes(McManaman style), he isnt needed on the left due to the width that Enrique provides. With that trio running onto the balls that Carroll knocks down i could see us scoring a lot more goals. Lucas in the centre is a no-brainer, same goes for Adam. His vision alone means he should be a guaranteed starter because no other midfielder can provide us with that.

That leaves us with the option of bringing Bellamy, Maxi, Downing and Henderson off the bench. 3 potential match changers and Henderson(to replace Adam after 70 mins in most games). Its time we started dominating teams again, there is certainly enough attacking potential in the team when you look at the players posted aswell as Enrique and Johnson playing as fullbacks.

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 02:25PM

Melion wrote: »

Someone already said it but its time more people realised it. 4-4-2 is a dinosaur formation, there is no urgency in the team when its played. Its too "regimented" IMO. I think our attack should look something like this
Carroll
Suarez
Gerrard
Kuyt
Lucas----Adam

Downing and Henderson have done nothing to warrant a place in the starting 11 yet. Dirk has done nothing to warrant being dropped and its something i cant understand. If we were to go with something like this it means Suarez gets a free role to do whatever he likes(McManaman style), he isnt needed on the left due to the width that Enrique provides. With that trio running onto the balls that Carroll knocks down i could see us scoring a lot more goals. Lucas in the centre is a no-brainer, same goes for Adam. His vision alone means he should be a guaranteed starter because no other midfielder can provide us with that.

That leaves us with the option of bringing Bellamy, Maxi, Downing and Henderson off the bench. 3 potential match changers and Henderson(to replace Adam after 70 mins in most games). Its time we started dominating teams again, there is certainly enough attacking potential in the team when you look at the players posted aswell as Enrique and Johnson playing as fullbacks.

No its not, it just needs good wingers and two good all round midfielders. City destroyed United 6-1 playing 4-4-2. Its far from outdated, you just have to have the right personnel.

Tusky · 06-11-2011 02:29PM

flahavaj wrote: »

No its not, it just needs good wingers and two good all round midfielders. City destroyed United 6-1 playing 4-4-2. Its far from outdated, you just have to have the right personnel.

Melion wrote: »

Someone already said it but its time more people realised it. 4-4-2 is a dinosaur formation, there is no urgency in the team when its played. Its too "regimented" IMO. I think our attack should look something like this
Carroll
Suarez
Gerrard
Kuyt
Lucas----Adam

Downing and Henderson have done nothing to warrant a place in the starting 11 yet. Dirk has done nothing to warrant being dropped and its something i cant understand. If we were to go with something like this it means Suarez gets a free role to do whatever he likes(McManaman style), he isnt needed on the left due to the width that Enrique provides. With that trio running onto the balls that Carroll knocks down i could see us scoring a lot more goals. Lucas in the centre is a no-brainer, same goes for Adam. His vision alone means he should be a guaranteed starter because no other midfielder can provide us with that.

That leaves us with the option of bringing Bellamy, Maxi, Downing and Henderson off the bench. 3 potential match changers and Henderson(to replace Adam after 70 mins in most games). Its time we started dominating teams again, there is certainly enough attacking potential in the team when you look at the players posted aswell as Enrique and Johnson playing as fullbacks.

4-4-2 is not an outdated formation, we just dont have the players for it. First of all, Lucas and Adam is a poor central partnership. Secondly, Henderson offers no threat from the right and Downing has been unproductive on the left, for all his efforts. Lastly, Carroll has not been finishing chances and despite being touted as one of the best headers in the league, has offered little threat from crosses or corners.

It's got little to do with the formation and more to do with the personnel. We bought badly in the summer and Carroll was also a poor choice in January. I've been saying it all along but have been lambasted many times for being too negative, when in reality, I was just expressing an opinion which has been spot on thus far.

Goals after 11 games:

City - 39
United - 28
Chelsea - 24
Spurs - 17 (2 games in hand)
Newcastle - 17
Liverpool - 14

Terrible return, just over a goal a game, despite already playing a number of newly promoted teams.

Melion · 06-11-2011 02:34PM

flahavaj wrote: »

No its not, it just needs good wingers and two good all round midfielders. City destroyed United 6-1 playing 4-4-2. Its far from outdated, you just have to have the right personnel.

I cant remember but looking at the City 11 that day, it was a very unconventional 442 if thats true.

argosy2006 · 06-11-2011 02:39PM

We are 3 pts off 4th, LOL
And have been so unlucky, Geez with a bit of luck we would be 3rd !
Midfield did not function yesterday, Dunno why ,
This time last year we were two pts out of relegation zone, It will click, hopefully soon,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/9154647.stm

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 02:40PM

Melion wrote: »

I cant remember but looking at the City 11 that day, it was a very unconventional 442 if thats true.

Silva/Milner wide, Barry/Toure in midfield.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/23/manchester-united-1-6-manchester-city-tactics/

Regardless, if you have the right players 442 per se is far from an outdated formation.

Kess73 · 06-11-2011 02:45PM

flahavaj wrote: »

No its not, it just needs good wingers and two good all round midfielders. City destroyed United 6-1 playing 4-4-2. Its far from outdated, you just have to have the right personnel.

I think that regardless of formation, and ignoring the defence, Liverpool are still lacking in the centre of midfield and out wide.

In the centre there is no steel, no grit, and no metronome capable of changing tempo. The club simply does not have the players to provide these things on a regular basis over the course of a season.

Out wide we have looked like a team with one flank, the left one. The left flank regardless of whether it is Enrique/Downing, Enrique/Bellamy, or Enrique/Suarez always looks good with a combination from those four players. The only time the left flank has provided no threat at all was when Henderson was shipped out there and I blame the manager for putting the player there more than I blame the player on that one.

The right flank has been poor this season with one exception. That exception was when we put Bellamy on the left and Downing on the right with Kelly behind him. Kelly would be my first choice at RB and for the same reasons as why I wanted him there last season as well. He offers a decent level of threat/support when going forward, but offers excellent solidity in the position in defensive terms. Downing or Kuyt in front of him would be fine until we get a quality wide right player.

Henderson should be a sub for the time being. Let him cut his teeth coming on as cover for the CAM slot or even the RM slot when the team is doing well. That way he has less pressure on him, and because the team would benefit from not having him in from the start as more often than not he has been poor when started. People can argue about the positions he has played in, but poor is poor and it throws off the team. Ease him in slowly and he may perform better in time.

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 02:49PM

Kess73 wrote: »

I think that regardless of formation, and ignoring the defence, Liverpool are still lacking in the centre of midfield and out wide.

In the centre there is no steel, no grit, and no metronome capable of changing tempo. The club simply does not have the players to provide these things on a regular basis over the course of a season.

Out wide we have looked like a team with one flank, the left one. The left flank regardless of whether it is Enrique/Downing, Enrique/Bellamy, or Enrique/Suarez always looks good with a combination from those four players. The only time the left flank has provided no threat at all was when Henderson was shipped out there and I blame the manager for putting the player there more than I blame the player on that one.

The right flank has been poor this season with one exception. That exception was when we put Bellamy on the left and Downing on the right with Kelly behind him. Kelly would be my first choice at RB and for the same reasons as why I wanted him there last season as well. He offers a decent level of threat/support when going forward, but offers excellent solidity in the position in defensive terms. Downing or Kuyt in front of him would be fine until we get a quality wide right player.

Henderson should be a sub for the time being. Let him cut his teeth coming on as cover for the CAM slot or even the RM slot when the team is doing well. That way he has less pressure on him, and because the team would benefit from not having him in from the start as more often than not he has been poor when started. People can argue about the positions he has played in, but poor is poor and it throws off the team. Ease him in slowly and he may perform better in time.

I saw ye linked with Huddlestone last week. I'd say you have an awful bulge in the pants.:pac:

Blatter · 06-11-2011 02:52PM

argosy2006 wrote: »

We are 3 pts off 4th, LOL
And have been so unlucky, Geez with a bit of luck we would be 3rd !
Midfield did not function yesterday, Dunno why ,
This time last year we were two pts out of relegation zone, It will click, hopefully soon,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/9154647.stm

In fairness, ye were only 3 points of 5th with a game in hand.

I already posted in the match thread;

First 11 PL games under Hodgson last season = 15 points

First 11 games under Dalglish this season = 19 points

If ye don't pick up any points in the next two games(Chelsea away and City at home) it will look worse.

Ye have definitely looked better this season in the games ye played despite some of the results but then again an awful lot more money has been spent.

mada999 · 06-11-2011 02:58PM

monkey9 wrote: »

Completely agree!! It's not Carroll's fault he was bought for 35m. Forget the fee, he's a 22 year old kid who has been bought, not just for now, but the future. Just like Henderson!! We need to trust the management and give them time. Let them develop the squad. Give them time to grow! That means more than just this season and sh!tty results against the likes of Norwich and Swansea!

the problem is we dont have time to wait and build.... the longer we are out of the top 4 the harder it will to get back in....

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 02:59PM

Blatter wrote: »

In fairness, ye were only 3 points of 5th with a game in hand.

I already posted in the match thread;

First 11 PL games under Hodgson last season = 15 points

First 11 games under Dalglish this season = 19 points

If ye don't pick up any points in the next two games(Chelsea away and City at home) it will look worse.

Ye have definitely looked better this season in the games ye played despite some of the results but then again an awful lot more money has been spent.

Goals scored would be the most worrying statistic if I was a Liverpool fan. 14 in 11 games is a meagre return - especially given the massive investment in the wide areas and forward line in 2011.

Kess73 · 06-11-2011 03:00PM

flahavaj wrote: »

I saw ye linked with Huddlestone last week. I'd say you have an awful bulge in the pants.:pac:

Unlike one certain individual:D I would have no problem with him arriving, but I do think that a player like M'Vila or Sissoko would bring badly needed steel and energy to the midfield.

I see that Erikssen is being linked with both Chelsea and City as well. He is young but I would love to see that calibre of young player bid for by the club, or one like Markus Henriksen.

mada999 · 06-11-2011 03:06PM

El LoCo Ade wrote: »

Second and last point will be brief, Downing wasn't bad yesterday. But his final ball was god awful. Bellamy for him was the move to make, not Carroll. Also 76 mins was it? The Kuyt sub was spot on though in fairness though.

but his job is to get the ball into the box..he didnt do his job.... Enrique did most of that for him..

Chucky the tree · 06-11-2011 03:09PM

We need a good striker before we need a central midfielder. What's the point in having a great midfielder to set up chances just so we can miss them?

mada999 · 06-11-2011 03:14PM

RayCon wrote: »

Add to that we have a very poor return from corners ... with the exception of the Spurs and Arsenal games, we've won huge amounts of corners per game but did little with them ..

11 V's Swansea
10 V's WBA
10 V's Norwich
8 V's Man Utd
9 V's Everton
7 V's Wolves
1 V's Spurs *
12 V Stoke
12 V Bolton
5 V Arsenal
6 V Sunderland *

91 Corners so far ... how many goals scored from Corners ? Skirtels against Bolton ....... eh, can't think of another ?

yup for seasons we seem to get a lot of corners and hardly any goals from them

it sucks...

Kess73 · 06-11-2011 03:19PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We need a good striker before we need a central midfielder. What's the point in having a great midfielder to set up chances just so we can miss them?

A lot of our chances are being created by one man in Suarez. A quality midfielder (or even two of them) could help to slow down and speed up play, retain possession and actually use that possession to get the team going forward quickly, or the quality CM might get forward to support the attackers more than what we see at present.

We are painfully slow in terms of getting numbers into the box for attacks. We often only have one player in the box during an attack and very few coming into the box looking for the ball. Generally we seem to have players that look to recycle the ball save for the opening and closing ten minute periods of games.

I don't disagree with you in that finishing is a big problem (I am assuming that is why you would like to see a good striker brought in), but I think it is our midfield and flanks that need to be improved upon first as we need that to exert more control over games, and to make it more difficult for other teams to play against us.

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 03:23PM

mada999 wrote: »

but his job is to get the ball into the box..he didnt do his job.... Enrique did most of that for him..

Downing's end product has been literally nil so far.

12 games. 0 goals. 0 assists.

YouTookMyName · 06-11-2011 03:25PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Downing's end product has been literally nil so far.

12 games. 0 goals. 0 assists.

He's been woefully unlucky hitting bar/post. Also he lays the ball of Enrique quite a bit.

flahavaj · 06-11-2011 03:27PM

YouTookMyName wrote: »

He's been woefully unlucky hitting bar/post. Also he lays the ball of Enrique quite a bit.

Perhaps but for £20m you would expect a little more end product.

06-11-2011 03:42PM

Downing gets by his player quite often but then......final ball is brutal.

And btw, ye were talking about City 4-4-2 with Silva on the wing.

Silva is hardly a conventional winger! The lad pops up everywhere

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 - Mod Note 4153

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