Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

04-11-2011 02:17PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ahead of what better options though?

you've got to be kidding me

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:19PM

vinny chase wrote: »

I saw that game with Archer, and had to say, even I felt sorry for him watching it. A prop can get done over occasionally, and sometimes it's a referee's interpretation, sometimes they could have a slight niggle or injury, sometimes it's just a bad day.

But he got obliterated that day. Duncan Jones is a good prop, but he's not exactly the best loosehead Archer will be expected to come up against. Had to worrying that day looking at it; especially in light of comments from McGahan this week about how 'promising' Archer is.

Munster kept Buckley around for too long, until their own scrum suffered for it, and certainly the Irish did too. Hope this isn't a repeat situation.

Hard to know really, I've never seen much from Archer. I'd love to get Botha's appraisal of all our props.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

you've got to be kidding me

If we could give Reddan a brain then maybe.

profitius · 04-11-2011 02:23PM

totallegend wrote: »

Just to stick my oar in here, people were raving last season about Murray, Jones and to a lesser extent Barnes making the breakthrough but these guys were only given a shot after Munster had gone out of the HC; a cynical person would look at that and say that McGahan might trust in youth but only when there's not that much to play for.

The three players mentioned above, along with Nagle, Archer & O'Mahony, don't have a single Heineken Cup appearance between them. Based on the XV selected for tonight, not much is going to change this season. Maybe McGahan is in self-preservation mode and wants guys he can depend on to produce results and save his job, but long term development may have to suffer for that...

Exactly.

McGahan has put some effort into the academy. I heard he organised meetings about it etc and it takes a few years to see the knock on effect.

As for playing young players, he is more conservative than Declan Kidney was. Dropping POM and Barnes was not only a blow for those players but for all the younger players looking on. As Emmet said, if you were an 18 year old starting off and had your choice of provinces, you should avoid Munster.

The media may be more pro Munster but its not helping Munster when they pretend everything is perfectly fine. Wheres the famous honesty there? If they keep codding themselves about the situation they can't move forward.

04-11-2011 02:28PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If we could give Reddan a brain then maybe.

I'm not a Reddan fan in the slightest, I hate his constant brainfarting. But to suggest a World Quarter final was a good time for Murray to earn his 4th cap, having never played above ML level until 5 weeks prior is fairly nuts.

In fact, it's about the same as those suggesting that players can play HEC without getting much exposure at ML levels, as we're going to surely see this year at Munster. Purely because of mistakes made in previous seasons.

Players like Jamie Smith at Ulster are incredibly important to growth. He didn't make it, Ulster learned a lot. He moved on. But without giving him the chances to do so, they never would've learned a thing about him bar "he's great in training" (Joe Cole). If Ulster had kept Smith on their books without giving him adequate exposure, they'd give up the opportunity of signing/developing someone else, and when the time came, and he was called upon in a big match situation, he would have struggled. There's far too many examples of this at Munster to name to be honest, and I don't think that they've turned any corners in this regard yet.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a Reddan fan in the slightest, I hate his constant brainfarting. But to suggest a World Quarter final was a good time for Murray to earn his 4th cap, having never played above ML level until 5 weeks prior is fairly nuts.

In fact, it's about the same as those suggesting that players can play HEC without getting much exposure at ML levels, as we're going to surely see this year at Munster. Purely because of mistakes made in previous seasons.

Players like Jamie Smith at Ulster are incredibly important to growth. He didn't make it, Ulster learned a lot. He moved on. But without giving him the chances to do so, they never would've learned a thing about him bar "he's great in training" (Joe Cole). If Ulster had kept Smith on their books without giving him adequate exposure, they'd give up the opportunity of signing/developing someone else, and when the time came, and he was called upon in a big match situation, he would have struggled. There's far too many examples of this at Munster to name to be honest, and I don't think that they've turned any corners in this regard yet.

But we are giving guys chances. You don't seem to follow things all that closely if you think we don't. Last season Nagle, POM and Barnes all had serious injuries which stopped them getting more games, and indeed, Nagle and Barnes both had short term injuries already this season. Like I said, things could be better but we're improving.

[Jackass] · 04-11-2011 02:42PM

Just like I was with Tomas O'Leary, I'm perfectly content with all the hype surrounding Murray. Last it was Jones, who'll be the next flavour of the month / second coming of the messiah to save Munster rugby?

posted in the spirit of the day that's in it

wixfjord · 04-11-2011 02:43PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ahead of what better options though?

**** me do we have to go down this route again?

04-11-2011 02:43PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

But we are giving guys chances. You don't seem to follow things all that closely if you think we don't. Last season Nagle, POM and Barnes all had serious injuries which stopped them getting more games, and indeed, Nagle and Barnes both had short term injuries already this season. Like I said, things could be better but we're improving.

Again, as you've repeated yourself, I'll choose to do the same.

There is less than 15% of the squad which you can call as "young, promising, and have been given gametime".

Having looked at Nagle, Barnes and POM's numbers last season, they between them failed to rack up as many minutes as Dominic Ryan did on his own at Leinster. Obviously injuries can be blamed, and quite rightfully so in some cases, but injuries still nowhere near cover the dearth of opportunities afforded to guys "outside the golden 22".

Simply restating your points doesn't change their validity.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, as you've repeated yourself, I'll choose to do the same.

There is less than 15% of the squad which you can call as "young, promising, and have been given gametime".

Having looked at Nagle, Barnes and POM's numbers last season, they between them failed to rack up as many minutes as Dominic Ryan did on his own at Leinster. Obviously injuries can be blamed, and quite rightfully so in some cases, but injuries still nowhere near cover the dearth of opportunities afforded to guys "outside the golden 22".

Simply restating your points doesn't change their validity.

If guys miss most of the season from Christmas on of course their numbers will be down.

04-11-2011 02:50PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

If guys miss most of the season from Christmas on of course their numbers will be down.

Did 28 of the 50 squad members miss 6 months of the season?

I'm done here btw, if you can't be straightforward and rational about constructive criticism, I don't think it's worth trying to help you see the light.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 02:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a Reddan fan in the slightest, I hate his constant brainfarting. But to suggest a World Quarter final was a good time for Murray to earn his 4th cap, having never played above ML level until 5 weeks prior is fairly nuts.

In fact, it's about the same as those suggesting that players can play HEC without getting much exposure at ML levels, as we're going to surely see this year at Munster. Purely because of mistakes made in previous seasons.

Players like Jamie Smith at Ulster are incredibly important to growth. He didn't make it, Ulster learned a lot. He moved on. But without giving him the chances to do so, they never would've learned a thing about him bar "he's great in training" (Joe Cole). If Ulster had kept Smith on their books without giving him adequate exposure, they'd give up the opportunity of signing/developing someone else, and when the time came, and he was called upon in a big match situation, he would have struggled. There's far too many examples of this at Munster to name to be honest, and I don't think that they've turned any corners in this regard yet.

So, are you suggesting then that if a player does well in a couple of games, but because they haven't played a lot they should be dropped because its an important game? Murray started against Italy the week previous to the Welsh game. For the record, Murray played in the Amlin Challenge (Brive & Quins - who went onto win it and who are now top of the English League).

As I've pointed out previously, Munster take the B+I Cup seriously (and got to the semi-final - they are also playing big games in the AIL - so temperment will be found out there.

The internationals (against Australia & New Zealand) are also a good place for the Munster coaches to assess players and how they will cope at a higher level.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Did 28 of the 50 squad members miss 6 months of the season?

I'm done here btw, if you can't be straightforward and rational about constructive criticism, I don't think it's worth trying to help you see the light.

No, just the young guys coming through. Guys like MOD and Holland played a good bit of the season.

04-11-2011 02:56PM

MaryKing wrote: »

So, are you suggesting then that if a player does well in a couple of games, but because they haven't played a lot they should be dropped because its an important game?Murray started against Italy the week previous to the Welsh game. For the record, Murray played in the Amlin Challenge (Brive & Quins - who went onto win it and who are now top of the English League).

As I've pointed out previously, Munster take the B+I Cup seriously (and got to the semi-final - they are also playing big games in the AIL - so temperment will be found out there.

The internationals (against Australia & New Zealand) are also a good place for the Munster coaches to assess players and how they will cope at a higher level.

No, how do people read such bizarre statements in straightforward English? He shouldn't have been involved in the Italian game either tbh. He just wasn't ready, which isn't his fault in the slightest!

Amlin Cups and B&I cups are all well and good, but they're considerable steps below HEC and ML respectively.

Munster taking the B&I cup seriously is fairly irrelevant tbh, England take the Calcutta Cup seriously but at the end of the day they only play against a team of Scotland's calibre.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, how do people read such bizarre statements in straightforward English? He shouldn't have been involved in the Italian game either tbh. He just wasn't ready, which isn't his fault in the slightest!

Amlin Cups and B&I cups are all well and good, but they're considerable steps below HEC and ML respectively.

Munster taking the B&I cup seriously is fairly irrelevant tbh, England take the Calcutta Cup seriously but at the end of the day they only play against a team of Scotland's calibre.

Just because you think Murray wasan't ready doesn't mean he actually wasn't ready you know. I think he did well in the RWC.

04-11-2011 02:58PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

No, just the young guys coming through. Guys like MOD and Holland played a good bit of the season.

Okay, you've pulled me in so.
Name 8 young players coming through, that got "adequate gametime" in the past 18 months that wasn't due only to injuries.

Now, after naming them, have a look at the Munster site and get the details of their seasons. Post here if satisfied that "adequate gametime" was given to them, and opportunity afforded to sink or swim.

Sinkers are every bit as important as Swimmers in my mind.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 03:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, how do people read such bizarre statements in straightforward English? He shouldn't have been involved in the Italian game either tbh. He just wasn't ready, which isn't his fault in the slightest!

Amlin Cups and B&I cups are all well and good, but they're considerable steps below HEC and ML respectively.

Munster taking the B&I cup seriously is fairly irrelevant tbh, England take the Calcutta Cup seriously but at the end of the day they only play against a team of Scotland's calibre.

Sorry, but I'm finding it difficult to understand what you are posting. What I'm getting now is that you don't rate Murray (and from a post above you don't rate Reddan either). Would I be right?

I'd suggest that the B+I Cup is an excellent way to prepare young players for the Heineken CUP. I also think the AIL is good - Murray & Sherry would have had to deal with a lot of pressure to try and keep Garryown up - a lot more difficult than playing in a successful team.

04-11-2011 03:12PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm finding it difficult to understand what you are posting. What I'm getting now is that you don't rate Murray (and from a post above you don't rate Reddan either). Would I be right?

I'd suggest that the B+I Cup is an excellent way to prepare young players for the Heineken CUP. I also think the AIL is good - Murray & Sherry would have had to deal with a lot of pressure to try and keep Garryown up - a lot more difficult than playing in a successful team.

How, they are two completely different levels of competition?

I do rate Murray, but I see him currently as a player like Rhys Rudock, Tiernan O'Halloran, Nevin Spence. Bags of potential, but needs more opportunities for us to find more out about him. All will learn an awful lot this season, but (hopefully) none of them are anywhere near the finished article yet.

phog · 04-11-2011 03:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay, you've pulled me in so.
Name 8 young players coming through, that got "adequate gametime" in the past 18 months that wasn't due only to injuries.

Now, after naming them, have a look at the Munster site and get the details of their seasons. Post here if satisfied that "adequate gametime" was given to them, and opportunity afforded to sink or swim.

Sinkers are every bit as important as Swimmers in my mind.

What's young?

Name

Age

Caps
Stephen Archer - - - 24 - - - 20
Danny Barnes

22

19
Scott Deasy

23

31
Conor Murray

23

15
Ian Nagle

23

17
Peter O'Mahony ----22

21
Mike Sherry

23

27
Simon Zebo

22

19

pajunior · 04-11-2011 03:15PM

phog wrote: »

What's young?

Name
Age
Caps
Stephen Archer - - - 24 - - - 20
Danny Barnes
22
19
Scott Deasy
23
31
Conor Murray
23
15
Ian Nagle
23
17
Peter O'Mahony ----22
21
Mike Sherry
23
27
Simon Zebo
22
19

Ian Nagle is often singled out as the best young player in Munster if not Ireland yet he has less caps then Deasy and Archer

04-11-2011 03:18PM

Where are you getting those stats from phog? They're way off what the Munster Rugby site has...
Season Appearances (Sub in Brackets)
Archer 2010/2011 3+6
2011/2012 3+2

Barnes 2010/2011 4+3
2011/2012 5+1

Nagle 2010/2011 8+1
2011/2012 0+2

POM 2010/2011 1+6
2011/2012 6+1

Sherry 2010/2011 5+14
2011/2012 3+1

Zebo 2010/2011 5+4
2011/2012 1+4

Paints a very very different picture

profitius · 04-11-2011 03:19PM

Tom Gleeson age 25. 11 starts, 5 sub appearances.

totallegend · 04-11-2011 03:22PM

MaryKing wrote: »

I'd suggest that the B+I Cup is an excellent way to prepare young players for the Heineken CUP. I also think the AIL is good - Murray & Sherry would have had to deal with a lot of pressure to try and keep Garryown up - a lot more difficult than playing in a successful team.

It is not.

GerM · 04-11-2011 03:23PM

pajunior wrote: »

Ian Nagle is often singled out as the best young player in Munster if not Ireland yet he has less caps then Deasy and Archer

All relative to their positions. Archer and Deasy don't have nearly the same queue ahead of them for their positions that Nagle has at lock. With that said, Archer should be picking up more appearances as a sub and being eased into the side more and more. I don't see him being significantly worse than Hayes at this point. Nagle is a tough one. Undoubtedly talented but he's not going to see much action in the next 18 months at which point his contract will be up for renewal again and he'll be almost 25. It's not unimaginable that his stock will be lower by the time it comes to signing a new contract than it was when he signed his current one given his profile was very high after the MOTM against Australia. From an Irish perspective, I'd have loved to see him go to Northampton when the opportunity was there. Being part of a front five of Tonga'uiha, Hartley, Mujati and Lawes would have been a fantastic learning experience and he'd be teak tough by the time his contract came to an end.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 03:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

How, they are two completely different levels of competition?

I do rate Murray, but I see him currently as a player like Rhys Rudock, Tiernan O'Halloran, Nevin Spence. Bags of potential, but needs more opportunities for us to find more out about him. All will learn an awful lot this season, but (hopefully) none of them are anywhere near the finished article yet.

I think Murray is away ahead of any of those in terms of experience. O'Halloran, Ruddock & Spence haven't really had much of a chance to get to challenge in that neither O'H or Spence have any competition as such and Ruddock (unlike Murray) hasn't really displaced anyone at Leinster.

Would I be correct in saying that Murray also won a starting spot through performance at underage as well?

As for the B+I Cup - doesn't matter what level it is - it is a challenge for those players (if it wasn't they would be winning it easily). Its good mental preparation for cup rugby.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 03:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay, you've pulled me in so.
Name 8 young players coming through, that got "adequate gametime" in the past 18 months that wasn't due only to injuries.

Now, after naming them, have a look at the Munster site and get the details of their seasons. Post here if satisfied that "adequate gametime" was given to them, and opportunity afforded to sink or swim.

Sinkers are every bit as important as Swimmers in my mind.

Swimmers
Sherry - currently injured
Nagle - two injuries in the last 10 months
POM - serious injury last season
Murray - Irish starter
Barnes - two injuries in last 12 months
Zebo

Threading water
Archer
Foley - missed parts of both preseasons, iirc.
TOD

Sinking
Williams - too injry prone
Deasy - no real position

04-11-2011 03:34PM

numbers for each above. Adequate?

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 03:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

numbers for each above. Adequate?

Relative to?

I'd like if they hadn't gotten injured, they did, nothing we can do about it now.

04-11-2011 03:38PM

18 months of injuries for 7 players? Not one bar Archer managing to even kit out more than 20 times in 18months.

Don't worry, shouldn't let a little bit of rationality get in the way of a good old bid of blind nonsense though.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 03:38PM

GerM wrote: »

From an Irish perspective, I'd have loved to see him go to Northampton when the opportunity was there. Being part of a front five of Tonga'uiha, Hartley, Mujati and Lawes would have been a fantastic learning experience and he'd be teak tough by the time his contract came to an end.

Personally think he is better off learning from one of the best locks in the world. If he is not able to displace any of the Munster encumbents, he is not that good anyway.

Even if it doesn't work out at Munster, he won't have any problem picking up a spot for a top team (and in Ireland too!).

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