Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

04-11-2011 11:41AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Not sure you mean by they are exception? Since McGahan has come in the standard of player from our Academy is better, i think that has to be beyond question. The problem is that middle tier. Not just the ones we've kept either, guys like the Ryans should be coming into their own now, but instead we made a bad bet and it didn't pay off. It's still killing us and will continue to kill us for another few seasons. Basically, we can write-off the early years of the Academy.

Munster A's squad for the B&I cup will be interesting.

there's 4 lads we've named that are challenging for spots. The squad has almost 50 members. The rotation or complete and utter lack thereof that we've seen at Munster over the past 4/5 years hasn't changed. Instead, they've simply skipped the middle tier players when selecting players to cover injuries.

I said it a year ago, and I'd reiterate it now. If I was an 18 year old whizzkid, and was offered an academy spot in any of the 4 provinces, Munster would be the last I'd chose, without a shadow of a doubt. Ulster and Leinster have brought players through quickly, have developed them, and if they're not quite good enough, have secured beneficial moves for them. With Connacht, you know that if you can get a good rhythm, you could easily end up playing ML rugby within 18months as a regular for them. They are somewhat forced to take chances, and if you had a bit of gamble in you (Dave McSharry), you could make a name for yourself with some good performances.

The problem with Munster's academy isn't the quality of player going into it, it's the gigantic bottleneck at the exit point.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 11:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

there's 4 lads we've named that are challenging for spots. The squad has almost 50 members. The rotation or complete and utter lack thereof that we've seen at Munster over the past 4/5 years hasn't changed. Instead, they've simply skipped the middle tier players when selecting players to cover injuries.

I said it a year ago, and I'd reiterate it now. If I was an 18 year old whizzkid, and was offered an academy spot in any of the 4 provinces, Munster would be the last I'd chose, without a shadow of a doubt. Ulster and Leinster have brought players through quickly, have developed them, and if they're not quite good enough, have secured beneficial moves for them. With Connacht, you know that if you can get a good rhythm, you could easily end up playing ML rugby within 18months as a regular for them. They are somewhat forced to take chances, and if you had a bit of gamble in you (Dave McSharry), you could make a name for yourself with some good performances.

The problem with Munster's academy isn't the quality of player going into it, it's the gigantic bottleneck at the exit point.

All successful teams ultimately come to this point though, how to get rid of the old guard. same thing is happening in Leinster, what are guys like Hudson supposed to do? free scoring winger who'll never a get a look in. Or guys like McGrath in the front row?

I expect Munster to have side-lined guys like Fogs, MOD, Holland, etc by the end of this season.

04-11-2011 11:48AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

All successful teams ultimately come to this point though, how to get rid of the old guard. same thing is happening in Leinster, what are guys like Hudson supposed to do? free scoring winger who'll never a get a look in. Or guys like McGrath in the front row?

I expect Munster to have side-lined guys like Fogs, MOD, Holland, etc by the end of this season.

that's two seasons too late for them. McGrath and Hudson are not yet 22 and it's utter madness to compare them to the guys you've just mentioned.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 11:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

that's two seasons too late for them. McGrath and Hudson are not yet 22 and it's utter madness to compare them to the guys you've just mentioned.

Hardly, Nagle could be the next Shaw and play til his 38, there's no point having a guy in his early 20's in the team for the sake of it. Like I said, he'd have a lot more Pro12 time but for injuries. same with POM actually, he'd a nexk injury last season too.

Do you think Nagle is currently better than POC, DOC or Ryan?

04-11-2011 11:57AM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Do you think Nagle is currently better than POC, DOC or Ryan?

no idea, I've seen him play once. I form opinions based on what I see, unlike guys like Farrelly.

The difference is that good coaches are aware that sometimes "for the good of the team" it makes sense to chose not your best players.

At Leinster we give out that BOD plays so many games, we need someone in there playing semi-regularly and wish that he'd sit out a few of the games that we don't necessarily need him for. Yet we've still managed to play EOM 25 times since last September.

Winning at all costs, when the cost is the ability of your squad to grow and develop, is a short term road to quasi success, and a long term road to ruin.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 12:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

no idea, I've seen him play once. I form opinions based on what I see, unlike guys like Farrelly.

The difference is that good coaches are aware that sometimes "for the good of the team" it makes sense to chose not your best players.

At Leinster we give out that BOD plays so many games, we need someone in there playing semi-regularly and wish that he'd sit out a few of the games that we don't necessarily need him for. Yet we've still managed to play EOM 25 times since last September.

Winning at all costs, when the cost is the ability of your squad to grow and develop, is a short term road to quasi success, and a long term road to ruin.

but like I said, but for injuries, Nagle and POM would have played a lot more. same with Sherry now. Nagle was clearly ahead of Holland last Christmas when he got injured.

04-11-2011 12:11PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

but like I said, but for injuries, Nagle and POM would have played a lot more. same with Sherry now. Nagle was clearly ahead of Holland last Christmas when he got injured.

4 players out of 50 is all we could name

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 12:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

4 players out of 50 is all we could name

Not really, over the past season we've given some league gametime to

John Ryan and Archer at prop, Sherry and Henry at hooker, Nagle, Foley and Hayes in the second row. POM, Butler and DOCv.2 in the backrow, Murray, Zebo, Scanlon, Barnes, and Deasy in the backs. Iirc, every one of those players started in the Academy after McGahan came in. The idea that Munster aren't trying anyone new is ill-founded, imo.

Now you'll no doubt come back and say "well, you haven't given much time to Hayes or Henry or whoever" but how could we? The players ahead of them are in Irish squads.

04-11-2011 12:21PM

"Some Gametime" does not equate to squad building

Ryan, Ruddock both have players ahead of them that played in the World Cup. Yet managed to play plenty last season.

EOM is behind BOD, yet managed 25 appearances.

Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but you're acting as if you're comparing like with like.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 12:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

"Some Gametime" does not equate to squad building

Ryan, Ruddock both have players ahead of them that played in the World Cup. Yet managed to play plenty last season.

EOM is behind BOD, yet managed 25 appearances.

Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but you're acting as if you're comparing like with like.

And yet Leinster would love to have some of our young second rows or hookers.

Or course it's not like for like, Leinster have a better Academy and more underage players, Munster will never have that production capacity. My point is McGahan is rebuilding the squad but it'll take a long time because of how bad the Academy used to be and our low underage numbers.

04-11-2011 12:30PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And yet Leinster would love to have some of our young second rows or hookers.

Or course it's not like for like, Leinster have a better Academy and more underage players, Munster will never have that production capacity. My point is McGahan is rebuilding the squad but it'll take a long time because of how bad the Academy used to be and our low underage numbers.

And my point is he's clearly not, as he hasn't afforded gametime to even the most "promising" of players beyond using them as injury cover.

The article, which I called totally flawed, clearly draws comparisons between the academy and that at Leinster, which is utter nonsense.

As I said.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 12:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And my point is he's clearly not, as he hasn't afforded gametime to even the most "promising" of players beyond using them as injury cover.

The article, which I called totally flawed, clearly draws comparisons between the academy and that at Leinster, which is utter nonsense.

As I said.

Sorry that's nonsense, both Nagle and POM were getting a good bit of time up to their injuries last year.

04-11-2011 12:35PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Sorry that's nonsense, both Nagle and POM were getting a good bit of time up to their injuries last year.

2 players...

Can you see this being a circular argument?

POM started 1 game and subbed 7 times in last season's league
Nagle started a far better 8 games and subbed once

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 12:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

2 players...

Can you see this being a circular argument?

POM started 1 game and subbed 7 times in last season's league
Nagle started a far better 8 games and subbed once

Ok, so who do you think he's not playing who should be playing? Or who of the list of players I gave do you rate or not rate?

ormond lad · 04-11-2011 12:42PM

Munsters development of players to put it bluntly has been s***e for the past few years and IMO there is serious problems at nearly every level from when players enter the development stage at 15/16 in youths/schools development squads to provincial u/age squads right up to the academy and pro squad. We dont have a clue what to do with any players capable of playing in the backs at underage level.
Take this years youths squad, the 2 best halfbacks were left on the bench because they took risks, played what was in front of them, didnt stick exactly to the game plan.
We have produced very few backs in the last few years because the coaching is nowhere near good enough and i cant see where itll improve.

04-11-2011 12:51PM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Ok, so who do you think he's not playing who should be playing? Or who of the list of players I gave do you rate or not rate?

It doesnt matter who I rate or not, it's an overwhelming lack of effort to include and reward players at the cost of not having the first XV for every game.

GerM · 04-11-2011 12:58PM

Going round in circles a bit at this point. McGahan has done a fine job in relation to getting the structures in place and actually introducing a professional academy system. He had no choice and there are players coming through now but not enough. I wonder if he has taken the overall Munster set up as far as he can (not just the senior side). He's willing to give the young players a look in (something his predecessor was not) and fair play to him for that but once the high profile players are available, he reverts back to what he knows. He has got the academy up and running and producing players but these players, for the most part, aren't making the next step whether it's through lack of talent or exposure, I don't know. First things first, a new director needs to be appointed quickly and they need to work alongside the senior coaching staff to make the most the young players development. We can't expect a player to come out of a 3 year cycle and be ready for Pro12 or HEC, they need to be eased along and only really fully developed at around 23.

Foley is being rumoured as a potential future coach after McGahan. I'm not sure he's the ideal candidate but he has worked with most of the young players in the past and should be willing to give them a shot. Given his interview in last week's papers though, I'm not sure his philosophy will bear fruit at the top level of the game and bring Munster back to the level a team of their stature belongs at.

totallegend · 04-11-2011 01:05PM

Just to stick my oar in here, people were raving last season about Murray, Jones and to a lesser extent Barnes making the breakthrough but these guys were only given a shot after Munster had gone out of the HC; a cynical person would look at that and say that McGahan might trust in youth but only when there's not that much to play for.

The three players mentioned above, along with Nagle, Archer & O'Mahony, don't have a single Heineken Cup appearance between them. Based on the XV selected for tonight, not much is going to change this season. Maybe McGahan is in self-preservation mode and wants guys he can depend on to produce results and save his job, but long term development may have to suffer for that...

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 01:20PM

Munster take the British & Irish Cup seriously though (which coincides with the HCup games). It was at a B+I game as far as I recall where Nagle was spotted by Northampton.

Then there is the AIL League. Both Murray & Sherry in particular had a tough year of it last year with Garryowen and Keith Earls spent a season playing it before being drafted onto the bench for the Heineken Cup final in '08.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 01:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesnt matter who I rate or not, it's an overwhelming lack of effort to include and reward players at the cost of not having the first XV for every game.

But last week POM and Barnes started, this week they aren't. You mightn't like it but there's every chance that McGahan (wrongly, imo) views this as another league game in the build up to the HEC.

vinny chase · 04-11-2011 01:22PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Munster take the British & Irish Cup seriously though (which coincides with the HCup games). It was at a B+I game as far as I recall where Nagle was spotted by Northampton.

Then there is the AIL League. Both Murray & Sherry in particular had a tough year of it last year with Garryowen and Keith Earls spent a season playing it before being drafted onto the bench for the Heineken Cup final in '08.

I agree with you, to an extent. I think Munster bring a lot of players to a certain level, but that level is generally just below first team selection. It's what creates the bottlenecks above then. The fact that rarely do they ever give the talented youngsters a lash in the biggest games will bear this one out. The only way you'll truly ever know the measure of Peter O'Mahony or Danny Barnes (two lads I rate very highly btw) is to see if they'll do it at the next level.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 01:24PM

ormond lad wrote: »

Munsters development of players to put it bluntly has been s***e for the past few years and IMO there is serious problems at nearly every level from when players enter the development stage at 15/16 in youths/schools development squads to provincial u/age squads right up to the academy and pro squad. We dont have a clue what to do with any players capable of playing in the backs at underage level.
Take this years youths squad, the 2 best halfbacks were left on the bench because they took risks, played what was in front of them, didnt stick exactly to the game plan.
We have produced very few backs in the last few years because the coaching is nowhere near good enough and i cant see where itll improve.

Just curious as to what you think of the structures once the players get included in the sub-Academy/Academy system? Is Gleeson getting much time with Shannon?

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 01:27PM

totallegend wrote: »

Just to stick my oar in here, people were raving last season about Murray, Jones and to a lesser extent Barnes making the breakthrough but these guys were only given a shot after Munster had gone out of the HC; a cynical person would look at that and say that McGahan might trust in youth but only when there's not that much to play for.

The three players mentioned above, along with Nagle, Archer & O'Mahony, don't have a single Heineken Cup appearance between them. Based on the XV selected for tonight, not much is going to change this season. Maybe McGahan is in self-preservation mode and wants guys he can depend on to produce results and save his job, but long term development may have to suffer for that...

While that's true, you'd expect all that to have changed by Jan. I'd be fairly hopefully guys like Sherry, POM, Barnes, and Murray will be in the HEC 23's at least. Archer i'm not so sure about after the going over he got against the Ospreys and I guess Nagle will only get a run if one of POC, DOC or Ryan get injured.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 01:29PM

totallegend wrote: »

Just to stick my oar in here, people were raving last season about Murray, Jones and to a lesser extent Barnes making the breakthrough but these guys were only given a shot after Munster had gone out of the HC; a cynical person would look at that and say that McGahan might trust in youth but only when there's not that much to play for.

The three players mentioned above, along with Nagle, Archer & O'Mahony, don't have a single Heineken Cup appearance between them. Based on the XV selected for tonight, not much is going to change this season. Maybe McGahan is in self-preservation mode and wants guys he can depend on to produce results and save his job, but long term development may have to suffer for that...

Only a mad coach would stick a young player on for experience in an important game and leave better options on the bench.

Archer was carded for his own safety in the match against the Ospreys (Duncan Jones was the LH). It would be wrong and dangerous to play him in a Heineken Cup team, particularly if up against a strong scrummaging team.

Munster have 3 big matches on the trot coming up - O'Mahoney will get his chance. Nagle is just going to have to wait a bit longer.

vinny chase · 04-11-2011 01:33PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Only a mad coach would stick a young player on for experience in an important game and leave better options on the bench.

Archer was carded for his own safety in the match against the Ospreys (Duncan Jones was the LH). It would be wrong and dangerous to play him in a Heineken Cup team, particularly if up against a strong scrummaging team.

Munster have 3 big matches on the trot coming up - O'Mahoney will get his chance. Nagle is just going to have to wait a bit longer.

I saw that game with Archer, and had to say, even I felt sorry for him watching it. A prop can get done over occasionally, and sometimes it's a referee's interpretation, sometimes they could have a slight niggle or injury, sometimes it's just a bad day.

But he got obliterated that day. Duncan Jones is a good prop, but he's not exactly the best loosehead Archer will be expected to come up against. Had to worrying that day looking at it; especially in light of comments from McGahan this week about how 'promising' Archer is.

Munster kept Buckley around for too long, until their own scrum suffered for it, and certainly the Irish did too. Hope this isn't a repeat situation.

04-11-2011 01:38PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Only a mad coach would stick a young player on for experience in an important game and leave better options on the bench.

Ireland Team to start vs Wales

9. Conor Murray

Declan Kidney a mad coach?

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 01:49PM

vinny chase wrote: »

I agree with you, to an extent. I think Munster bring a lot of players to a certain level, but that level is generally just below first team selection. It's what creates the bottlenecks above then. The fact that rarely do they ever give the talented youngsters a lash in the biggest games will bear this one out. The only way you'll truly ever know the measure of Peter O'Mahony or Danny Barnes (two lads I rate very highly btw) is to see if they'll do it at the next level.

Leinster would target Peter O'Mahoney unmercifully as I'm sure they are well aware of how he can fly off the handle. He would probably end up getting sent off if he started.

Munster need to give Chambers some game time - considering he didn't get too much last year as he was injured/on the bench a lot for the Reds. Barnes will see plenty of action in the next while.

Peter O'Mahony and Barnes are very young still. Sean O'Brien didn't really make his breakthrough until last season - and he is 2 years older than O'Mahoney. Barnes is just gone 22 last month. Fergus McFadden was about 24/25 before he made his Heineken Cup debut, so Barnes has plenty of time on his side.

MaryKing · 04-11-2011 01:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland Team to start vs Wales

9. Conor Murray

Declan Kidney a mad coach?

I don't think Conor Murray was picked against Wales to give him experience.

totallegend · 04-11-2011 02:05PM

MaryKing wrote: »

Only a mad coach would stick a young player on for experience in an important game and leave better options on the bench.

Archer was carded for his own safety in the match against the Ospreys (Duncan Jones was the LH). It would be wrong and dangerous to play him in a Heineken Cup team, particularly if up against a strong scrummaging team.

Munster have 3 big matches on the trot coming up - O'Mahoney will get his chance. Nagle is just going to have to wait a bit longer.

I'm not arguing that the young guys mentioned are better options than the starting players, I'm just using them as examples to highlight my opinion that the notion that McGahan is rewarding youth is not very accurate.
Either that or we're all over-hyping these young guys and McGahan can see they're not up to the job. I don't know enough about them to judge which is correct, tbh.

Amazotheamazing · 04-11-2011 02:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland Team to start vs Wales

9. Conor Murray

Declan Kidney a mad coach?

Ahead of what better options though?

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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