Greeks having a referendum on bailout

bauderline · 01-11-2011 05:46PM

A run on the greek banks now inevitable ?

beeftotheheels · 01-11-2011 06:00PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

And they probably wouldn't even have a working fax machine...

cordially,
Scofflaw

People still use fax machines???

Scofflaw · 01-11-2011 06:06PM

beeftotheheels wrote: »

People still use fax machines???

Apologies - it's from a description of being an EEA member by a former Norwegian PM, as "waiting by the fax machine to see what laws we have to bring in".

cordially,
Scofflaw

coolshannagh28 · 01-11-2011 06:28PM

Its a great move by the Greek PM ,the eurozone will have to write down all Greek debt and pump in capital to get the referendum passed ,otherwise its bye bye euro .The Greeks have played a master hand and will come out of this better than the best boys in the class.

Thrill · 01-11-2011 06:32PM

An emergency Government meeting is currently under way in Greece over referendum decision.

Paleface · 01-11-2011 07:11PM

Surely this is the last throw of the dice from a PM who's days are numbered.

Sand · 01-11-2011 07:12PM

For all the dire threats and scaremongering the Greeks are facing, they should remember that the exact same people said the pretty much the same thing about Iceland a year or two ago. Only a few months ago, Trichet and co were roaring and bawling about how there would never be a default of any sort in Greece and the ECB would suicide bomb the peripheral banking system if it was ever tried. And yet, there is a default and life goes on...

The ECB cannot selectively target the Greek banks without setting a precedent that will devastate all the peripheral banking systems. The ECB policy so far has been very insane, but I very much the doubt the Germans would stand for that sort of insanity - Trichet was reeled in and slapped back into his box back in July when the ECB was going around spreading hysteria before. The Greeks can default, and stay within the Euro with minimal issues. Let alone the EU.

My name is URL · 01-11-2011 07:54PM

It's being reported now that the Military leaders of Greece have been replaced.. are they expecting a coup?

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/49916

nesf · 01-11-2011 07:59PM

Sand wrote: »

For all the dire threats and scaremongering the Greeks are facing, they should remember that the exact same people said the pretty much the same thing about Iceland a year or two ago.

Iceland's problems were very small compared to Greece's.

ei.sdraob · 01-11-2011 08:29PM

I am bookmarking this thread
if Greeks do vote NO and then "default" and the sky doesn't fall down and the world moves on
then there are plenty of quotes here already to remind people of, the scaremongering has already begun, incredible

amacachi · 01-11-2011 08:34PM

nesf wrote: »

Iceland's problems were very small compared to Greece's.

And didn't Iceland have little to no sovereign debt/deficit while in Greece it's almost entirely that?

Mr.Micro · 01-11-2011 08:35PM

If the Greeks hold a referendum, re accepting the bailout and reject it, what then for Greece? It is something they must consider carefully or find themselves lurching further back into an impoverished state that might take decades or ever to climb out of. The reason I say this, is because to go it alone would need an awfully strong Government and leadership, and Greece could not depend on funds anytime soon from another nation or agency.

If they do leave the Euro will it mean that the Euro is dead or that a weak country like Greece should never have been in it? The bar will be set and only the strong will survive in the Eurozone. If this happens the countries like Portugal, Spain, Ireland and other small countries will have to step up to the plate, and if not out they will go, either to a second division Eurozone or out. This has been on the cards for sometime anyway and the Germans could use it as an excuse to create tiers in the Eurozone. All conjecture on my part, but carrying countries like Greece and others cannot go on forever, without a cost to the whole Eurozone. One suit does not fit all that is for sure.

Scofflaw · 01-11-2011 08:43PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I am bookmarking this thread
if Greeks do vote NO and then "default" and the sky doesn't fall down and the world moves on
then there are plenty of quotes here already to remind people of, the scaremongering has already begun, incredible

No doubt however bad it might get, we would still have people claiming everything was rosy there, as we do for Iceland.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob · 01-11-2011 08:56PM

Nobody is claiming anything is "rosy" if anything I referred to the Greek situation already in this thread as "between a rock and hard place"

For Greeks this referendum would fall down to choosing the least worst option, hey maybe they can hold 2 of them just to make sure they get the right answer :pac:

limklad · 01-11-2011 08:59PM

Well it is about bloody time for them to take responsibility for the direction of their economy. It pick your option and shut up time.

We had our turn to overwhelm and reject the the previous FF led government. It was a good thing the last government fell. We as a nation be probably be complaining like the Greeks and protesting infront of the dail complaining over a few drinks. Also Complaining the fact that the TD's and Senators pay no TAX on their drinks and food in their Dail Bar. Bloody awful. Our Beer/spirits drinks we are drowning our sorrow with is paying for the huge debt they landed us with.

Rasmus · 01-11-2011 09:00PM

My name is URL wrote: »

It's being reported now that the Military leaders of Greece have been replaced.. are they expecting a coup?

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/49916

Not yet. ''The defence minister proposed on Tuesday evening the complete replacement of the country’s top brass.''

Thrill · 01-11-2011 09:01PM

1942:
Mr Papandreou's Defence Minister Panos Beglitis has said he supported the prime minister's idea of a referendum. "The Greek people must assume their responsibilities on how they want the country to continue its course and exit from the crisis," he told private Skai radio, according to AFP news agency.

1947:
In a separate development, Mr Beglitis has held a state security council meeting and appointed new military chiefs. No further details were given. His office has insisted the move is unrelated to political decisions.

1948:
PM Papandreou seems to be sticking to his decision to call a referendum, according to a government spokesman quoted by Reuters. The prime minister has been in a cabinet meeting for hours.

1950:
The spokesman also told Reuters that the government has confidence that Mr Papandreou will survive Friday's confidence vote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15539642

If he survives the confidence vote then it seems certain there will be a referendum.

.update

2005:

Meanwhile, more details are emerging of a security reshuffle in Athens. The heads of the general staff, the army, navy and airforce have been replaced and a dozen army and navy officers have been discharged, the defence ministry said in a statement.

.

KerranJast · 01-11-2011 09:08PM

amacachi wrote: »

And didn't Iceland have little to no sovereign debt/deficit while in Greece it's almost entirely that?

Yeah pretty much. Also:
- they were outside the Euro so could devalue
- they're nearly entirely self energy independent (geothermal etc)
- they've decent amounts of natural resources.

I keep hearing Argentina brought up as an example of what we should follow. People forget/don't know what there was a massive wipe out of Argentinian bank deposits, huge social unrest for years and the primary reason they emerged from depression is again they've substantial natural resources to export which neither us nor Greece have.

01-11-2011 09:23PM

KerranJast wrote: »

Yeah pretty much. Also:
- they were outside the Euro so could devalue
- they're nearly entirely self energy independent (geothermal etc)
- they've decent amounts of natural resources.

I keep hearing Argentina brought up as an example of what we should follow. People forget/don't know what there was a massive wipe out of Argentinian bank deposits, huge social unrest for years and the primary reason they emerged from depression is again they've substantial natural resources to export which neither us nor Greece have.

Argentina defaulted over 10 years ago and have still not returned to the bond market, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has been buying their bonds since then to bankroll them.

nesf · 01-11-2011 09:25PM

amacachi wrote: »

And didn't Iceland have little to no sovereign debt/deficit while in Greece it's almost entirely that?

Exactly, all they had was a massive debt owed by their banks. Other than that the economy was in ok shape as far as I remember. Greece faces severe pain over the next decade regardless of what path it chooses.

Scofflaw · 01-11-2011 10:27PM

KerranJast wrote: »

Yeah pretty much. Also:
- they were outside the Euro so could devalue
- they're nearly entirely self energy independent (geothermal etc)
- they've decent amounts of natural resources.

I keep hearing Argentina brought up as an example of what we should follow. People forget/don't know what there was a massive wipe out of Argentinian bank deposits, huge social unrest for years and the primary reason they emerged from depression is again they've substantial natural resources to export which neither us nor Greece have.

The devaluation is over-rated - our exports have been doing better than theirs.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Kumejima · 01-11-2011 10:56PM

nesf wrote: »

Insanity or an extremely dangerous and risky political play. I can't decide which.

There's only one word that describes it

Rocknroll!

Seriously just when barroso et al thought they had steadied the ship Papandreou goes and does this. The guy is a legend

caseyann · 01-11-2011 11:29PM

nesf wrote: »

Exactly, all they had was a massive debt owed by their banks. Other than that the economy was in ok shape as far as I remember. Greece faces severe pain over the next decade regardless of what path it chooses.

I would rather the pain of default and do a come back rather than paying them ****s anything and being held to debt forever.

K-9 · 02-11-2011 12:16AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's a referendum. They tend not to have alternatives.

It's a major fault with the whole concept of referendums. The opposition are under no obligation to propose a workable alternative; they simply have to reject what's on offer.

True, it's rather easy to point to possible flaws and "what if?" type scenarios, the Oireachtas Inquiry Referendum an example.

I think this one is slightly different though. The opposition don't seem to particularly want a referendum, there's internal opposition in the Government and in a strange way, it's an other sign of Government ineptitude. It isn't like EU referenda here where all the establishment parties are behind it and SF are always against.

djpbarry · 02-11-2011 12:46AM

Kumejima wrote: »

Seriously just when barroso et al thought they had steadied the ship Papandreou goes and does this. The guy is a legend...

...who is obviously prioritising Greece’s best interests over his own career prospects. Obviously.

caseyann wrote: »

I would rather the pain of default rather than paying them ****s anything and being held to debt forever.

Tell you what, why don’t we do a trial run on a small scale first. Go round up everyone you know and collectively tell all your creditors to go **** themselves – let us know how that works out for you.

caseyann · 02-11-2011 12:53AM

djpbarry wrote: »

...who is obviously prioritising Greece’s best interests over his own career prospects. Obviously.
Tell you what, why don’t we do a trial run on a small scale first. Go round up everyone you know and collectively tell all your creditors to go **** themselves – let us know how that works out for you.

I tell you what yous keep paying them money and screwing the public and making rich richer and poor poorer and tell me,oh wait:eek: how is that going for you

Oh p.s i dont owe anyone money

Corsendonk · 02-11-2011 01:38AM

Raelynn Wrong Face wrote: »

Argentina defaulted over 10 years ago and have still not returned to the bond market, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has been buying their bonds since then to bankroll them.

The Argentinan Government already have lost 340 and counting court cases in the US for damages but apparently you can't confiscate an embassy and the Argentina Government didn't own anything of much value in the US. I would hate to see their legal bill do.

KerranJast · 02-11-2011 01:50AM

caseyann wrote: »

I tell you what yous keep paying them money and screwing the public and making rich richer and poor poorer and tell me,oh wait:eek: how is that going for you

Oh p.s i dont owe anyone money

The Greeks are about as far from poor as one can imagine. Tax evasion is rife. This is a country where 2/3 Doctors pay less than €12k in tax per annum and recently an IMF team member said they had no idea how many public sector employees were on the States books.

They effectively been stealing from the German taxpayer since they got into the Euro.

Scofflaw · 02-11-2011 03:00AM

After a grueling seven-hour Cabinet meeting, government spokesman Ilias Mossialos said Papandreou's ministers expressed "total support for the initiatives taken by the prime minister" and said the referendum would be held "as soon as possible."

Game on!

"Total support", eh? Either Papandreou has a very big stick hidden about his person or maybe - just maybe - the referendum is in fact the cunning plan I personally like to think it might be.

cordially,
Scofflaw

cyberhog · 02-11-2011 05:45AM

The pressure is now on Sarkozy and Merkel to lock in the second bailout ahead of a referendum.

(Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel will hold an emergency meeting with Greece on Wednesday to push for a quick implementation of Athens' bailout deal

..

Sarkozy said a hastily arranged meeting for Wednesday in the Riviera resort of Cannes with his German counterpart Angela Merkel, Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, European Union and IMF officials would "examine the conditions under which the commitments made could be maintained."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/01/us-france-germany-greece-newspro-idUSTRE7A065X20111101

Greeks having a referendum on bailout

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