Even Germans are afraid of a United States of Europe

28-10-2011 08:15PM #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CZr17HLH5U

They see that the bill is going to be huge and they'll be on the hook for it.
Also they will have no exit clause.

The EU is Fúcked! :eek:

andrew · 28-10-2011 08:20PM

What do you mean 'even the Germans?' This applies to the entire EU.

I really don't think there's deep enough analysis in that video to make any judgments TBH.

4leto · 28-10-2011 08:22PM

The EU its a mess, who in their right mind would want a united states of Europe. Do we really want to live in a country like the USA. It would never work in Europe we are to fractured. Our cultures are to different it's a utopian project bound to fail, just look at the state of the last EU utopian idea the fkucen Euro.

Saila · 28-10-2011 08:23PM

Question: is she the american version of the "please mind the gap" guy?

28-10-2011 08:36PM

andrew wrote: »

What do you mean 'even the Germans?' This applies to the entire EU.

I really don't think there's deep enough analysis in that video to make any judgments TBH.

While the Germans were in the driving seat, they were quite happy with the route being taken, now that the banksters are ensuring that they dictate the route, the Germans are running scared.

parrai · 28-10-2011 08:38PM

Will we be automatically signed into this or do we get a vote? It really is going to far, beyond a joke.

andrew · 28-10-2011 08:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

While the Germans were in the driving seat, they were quite happy with the route being taken, now that the banksters are ensuring that they dictate the route, the Germans are running scared.

So one internet video made my some randomer, who may be from Germany (due to the use of that eagle and the Reichstag pics) means that 'even the Germans are running scared'? And c'mon, really; 'banksters?' And what says it's the banks dictating this; currency unions need certain institutions to preform certain functions, as dictated by the needs of a currency union, not of any specific banks.

I think this video is silly.

parrai · 28-10-2011 08:44PM

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/articles/financial_operations/2011-07-11-esm-treaty_en.htm

ejmaztec · 28-10-2011 08:56PM

The Germans should attack the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and head off into Russia. They should then kick around for about five or six years. The rest of Europe will then pay the Americans for their help (like they did the last time).

After it's all over, there will be another Marshall plan, and *we'll be quids in, money problem solved.

*Note to Irish government: Don't go for neutrality this time, or we won't get a sh1t-load of money.

4leto · 28-10-2011 09:03PM

It looks like China is the donor nation of this currency marshal plan. Hail our new masters.

EI_Flyboy · 28-10-2011 09:12PM

andrew wrote: »

I think this video is silly.

Are you saying the message the video puts across is inaccurate...? Because if it is accurate then it is very far from silly. Or you're saying that if this is how the ESM is going to work, it's a very silly thing indeed?

I find the idea of the banks having an exhaustible tit to feed on that comes straight from our pockets to be extremely serious and very far from funny. If this is an accurate description of the ESM, I'd like to know.

ejmaztec · 28-10-2011 09:13PM

4leto wrote: »

It looks like China is the donor nation of this currency marshal plan. Hail our new masters.

They like lending billions to the American war-machine, so that they can sit back and watch, and not get blamed for anything:eek:.

It's time for intensive Mandarin classes.

28-10-2011 09:16PM

parrai wrote: »

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/articles/financial_operations/2011-07-11-esm-treaty_en.htm

Thanks, just scanned through and the clauses highlighted in the video are in fact real!
Personally, I think it's a step too far down the path to an integrated Europe as it has the banking sector in a lead position.

andrew · 28-10-2011 09:16PM

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Are you saying the message the video puts across is inaccurate...? Because if it is accurate then it is very far from silly. Or you're saying that if this is how the ESM is going to work, it's a very silly thing indeed?

The way in which the ESM works, and it's aims, are complicated. I'm not saying I understand them or anything, I just understand the general aim, which is to stabilize the euro by ensuring that there's enough money to deal with the Soverign debt crisis.

Trying to sum the treaty up in 3 minutes, by cherry-picking sinister sounding quotes, without any context at all, I think is both disingenuous and inaccurate.

ed2hands · 28-10-2011 09:18PM

andrew wrote: »

So one internet video made my some randomer, who may be from Germany (due to the use of that eagle and the Reichstag pics) means that 'even the Germans are running scared'? And c'mon, really; 'banksters?' And what says it's the banks dictating this; currency unions need certain institutions to preform certain functions, as dictated by the needs of a currency union, not of any specific banks.

I think this video is silly.

Is that the best you can do?
And you're the economics mod.
Am presuming you're an economist or at least in the financial industry. Please accept my apologies if i'm wrong about that.

"I think this video is silly"
Maybe you'll put some effort in and enlighten us as to what you really think instead of just pouring sarcastic scorn on it from the get-go.
After all it's quite an important subject. Or are you going to get all offended because some of us question the bull**** that is going down and blame it on the tools that caused it; namely the financial "experts"?

andrew · 28-10-2011 09:19PM

ed2hands wrote: »

Is that the best you can do?
And you're the economics mod.
Am presuming you're an economist or at least in the financial industry. Please accept my apologies if i'm wrong about that.

"I think this video is silly"
Maybe you'll put some effort in and enlighten us as to what you really think instead of just pouring sarcastic scorn on it from the get-go.
After all it's quite an important subject. Or are you going to get all offended because some of us question the bull**** that is going down and blame it on the tools that caused it; namely the financial "experts"?

Actually, I'm (just) a fourth year economics student

And I think I've clarified why I think it's silly in my post previous to this one; I accept that it would've made more sense to do this in my original post.

Lawrence1895 · 28-10-2011 09:21PM

andrew wrote: »

What do you mean 'even the Germans?' This applies to the entire EU.

I really don't think there's deep enough analysis in that video to make any judgments TBH.

Exactly, Germany is not the EU, and the voices, critical to Brussels are not that silent either. But nobody seems to listen to the parties from the left wing anyway...sounds familiar, does it?

parrai · 28-10-2011 09:27PM

They have too much power, I hope it all blows up in their faces

ed2hands · 28-10-2011 09:27PM

andrew wrote: »

Actually, I'm (just) a fourth year economics student

And I think I've clarified why I think it's silly in my post previous to this one; I accept that it would've made more sense to do this in my original post.

No probs dude!

28-10-2011 09:30PM

andrew wrote: »

The way in which the ESM works, and it's aims, are complicated. I'm not saying I understand them or anything, I just understand the general aim, which is to stabilize the euro by ensuring that there's enough money to deal with the Soverign debt crisis.

Trying to sum the treaty up in 3 minutes, by cherry-picking sinister sounding quotes, without any context at all, I think is both disingenuous and inaccurate.

The real issue is trying to stabilise an unstable system that cannot be made stable by just pumping money in, that's the problem!

The banking system in general requires infinite economic growth to function correctly at all, when the global limits to growth are reached (they have been now) when one country or region grows - somewhere else has to decline.

This decline is happening in Europe & USA, the current banking system is incapable of operating under these circumstances, just throwing more and more money will NOT resolve it. (period)

The solution is to change the way money is created, a "debt-free" currency* will function in a stable economy and does not require continuous growth and debt remains manageable.

*One that the government issues without charging interest, unlike the current system where the banks charge interest on all money.

SEPT 23 1989 · 28-10-2011 09:31PM

West Germany was way cooler with the deutsche mark and franz beckenbauer

andrew · 28-10-2011 09:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The real issue is trying to stabilise an unstable system that cannot be made stable by just pumping money in, that's the problem!

The banking system in general requires infinite economic growth to function correctly at all, when the global limits to growth are reached (they have been now) when one country or region grows - somewhere else has to decline.

This decline is happening in Europe & USA, the current banking system is incapable of operating under these circumstances, just throwing more and more money will NOT resolve it. (period)

The solution is to change the way money is created, a "debt-free" currency* will function in a stable economy and does not require continuous growth and debt remains manageable.

*One that the government issues without charging interest, unlike the current system where the banks charge interest on all money.

Economic growth is not a zero sum game. You're operating under incorrect knowledge with regard to how the banking system works (gathered from the money as debt videos, I think), which heavily simplifies and distorts aspects of the money creation process, and how it actually operates in the economy. If you PM me, I can send you some economics textbooks which explain how the macroeconomic system works.

Lawrence1895 · 28-10-2011 09:35PM

parrai wrote: »

They have too much power, I hope it all blows up in their faces

Who? The Germans? They just have a relatively strong economy and as far as I know (still have got my family over there), they made their way out of the recession without any bailout package

ed2hands · 28-10-2011 09:36PM

C'mon Andrew. Hit me! I need to be educated..

Sincere apologies about biting your head off on the basis of my presumptions.

4leto · 28-10-2011 09:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The real issue is trying to stabilise an unstable system that cannot be made stable by just pumping money in, that's the problem!

The banking system in general requires infinite economic growth to function correctly at all, when the global limits to growth are reached (they have been now) when one country or region grows - somewhere else has to decline.

This decline is happening in Europe & USA, the current banking system is incapable of operating under these circumstances, just throwing more and more money will NOT resolve it. (period)

The solution is to change the way money is created, a "debt-free" currency* will function in a stable economy and does not require continuous growth and debt remains manageable.

*One that the government issues without charging interest, unlike the current system where the banks charge interest on all money.

But the temptation will always be there for government to borrow money to appease their electorate, Ireland even borrowed during the boom.

No the only way out of this mess long term is a disintegration, recognise the Euro zone as a set of unique sovereign economic zones that cannot be harmonised.

So stabilise the currency for no and slowly return to the way it was before the Euro.

bnt · 28-10-2011 09:43PM

I won't believe there's a serious possibility of a United States of Europe until there's serious talk of a Federal, Europe-wide tax, paid directly in to a central Treasury. The political hurdles that would stand in the way of such a move are at least as large as those that had to be overcome to set up the EU in the first place i.e. a referendum on the matter would have to be won. Not gonna happen any time soon - unless one or more countries goes in to total meltdown and begs the ECB for a total financial reboot.

parrai · 28-10-2011 09:50PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

Who? The Germans? They just have a relatively strong economy and as far as I know (still have got my family over there), they made their way out of the recession without any bailout package

The people who are making these decisions, that as a result are going to fcuk us all up, ECB, european council or whoever in making these ambitious decisions based on nothing other than greed (in my opinion), under the disguise of saving the euro. With all their expert economists, they seem to be blind to what all experts around the world seem to think. They are throwing good money after bad instead of owning up to the fact that the euro is ****ed.

If the euro went tits up tomorrow, we would all suffer, I'm aware of this, (no wages, sw, money for Ireland etc), but maybe that might bust up this overly ambitious 'Super Union' or 'United States of Europe' they are trying to create...Wipe out this debt that has been lumped on us for the unforeseeable future. We would be forced to start again, and no harm imo.

andrew · 28-10-2011 09:51PM

ed2hands wrote: »

C'mon Andrew. Hit me! I need to be educated..

Sincere apologies about biting your head off on the basis of my presumptions.

Oh No problem!

I'm heading out for the night now, but I'll write a proper post tomorrow I think; posting about economics on boards instead of actually studying economics is my form of procrastination, but at least it's kinda relevant!

MungBean · 28-10-2011 09:51PM

Why dont people add a paragraph explaining what the fcuk they are on about rather than just positing a video ? Isnt this kinda shíte why pics were banned from AH's ?

SafeSurfer · 28-10-2011 09:53PM

bnt wrote: »

I won't believe there's a serious possibility of a United States of Europe until there's serious talk of a Federal, Europe-wide tax, paid directly in to a central Treasury. The political hurdles that would stand in the way of such a move are at least as large as those that had to be overcome to set up the EU in the first place i.e. a referendum on the matter would have to be won. Not gonna happen any time soon - unless one or more countries goes in to total meltdown and begs the ECB for a total financial reboot.

A Europe wide tax, paid directly to a central Treasury you say?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-28/eu-proposes-78-billion-a-year-financial-transaction-tax-to-start-in-2014.html

The European Union proposed a financial-transactions tax that would take effect in 2014 and raise about 57 billion euros ($78 billion) a year, prompting renewed opposition from the U.K.

The proposal would apply a tax of 0.1 percent on trading of stocks and bonds, with a 0.01 percent rate for derivatives contracts, the European Commission, the EU executive, said today in Brussels. Those minimum rates would apply throughout the 27- nation bloc. The measure would deliver “a fair contribution from the financial sector,” EU Tax Commissioner Algirdas Semeta said.

parrai · 28-10-2011 09:56PM

MungBean wrote: »

Why dont people add a paragraph explaining what the fcuk they are on about rather than just positing a video ? Isnt this kinda shíte why pics were banned from AH's ?

Basically the video is saying that a treaty is in the works that will, at the drop of a hat, be able to provide 700 billion euro to banks without being able to be challenged by any european country at a weeks notice...should a crisis arise, adding more debt to the people of Europe.

Even Germans are afraid of a United States of Europe

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