Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Is the institution of marriage unnatural?

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    The fact that it happens means that it's natural.

    Not necessarily. It's a social construct. That doesn't mean it's natural or even beneficial to all who do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭_Beau_


    Marriage is unnatural in that it is a human construct like all customs. In terms of mating for life, it is my belief that serial monogamy seems more reasonable for the vast majority of people, a succession of monogamous relationships.

    My question would be, is the institution of marriage necessary for society? I believe that it's not and I have yet to hear a rational argument opposing my view.

    Kinship is bestowed upon a spouse by the marital contract and this could otherwise be decided. Rights and responsibilities are unnecessary and incentives to marry (tax) discriminate against unmarried couples, as does the contract as a whole as it advocates one sexuality over all others. In terms of child custody and maintenance, DNA can determine parenthood; a marital contract is not required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    old hippy wrote: »
    I used to be a cynic, too ;)

    And then you got married


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭CarMe


    I hope to be with my boyfriend forever, we live together and have a child but I can't understand any reason to get wed. Not because I'm afraid we won't last, I just can't see the point. Ww have everything we need for a lovely life together, what difference would a piece of paper make?


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    CarMe wrote: »
    I hope to be with my boyfriend forever, we live together and have a child but I can't understand any reason to get wed. Not because I'm afraid we won't last, I just can't see the point. Ww have everything we need for a lovely life together, what difference would a piece of paper make?

    As can happen the boyfriend takes off what protection do you have without that 'piece of paper' for your self and the child.?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Hey don't flame me for saying illegitimate, just a legal term

    But it's only recently that inheritance laws were reformed that unmarried partners and illegitimate children had proper inheritance rights
    I think it was Charlie Haughey who sorted this, not sure

    If you owned a hundred acres of prime tillage in Kilkenny :cool: then marriage had and still has a lot to do with which young person is going to inherit this

    Often an uncle would swoop in and get the land and the son or daughter would get nothing as their parents were never married

    This is largely cleared up nowadays


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,646 ✭✭✭✭Sauve


    paddyandy wrote: »
    As can happen the boyfriend takes off what protection do you have without that 'piece of paper' for your self and the child.?

    As much as I fully agree with your point, it saddens me to think that our society has come to a point where some get married as a way to insure ourselves against being financially screwed over by the one person that we love the most.
    All's fair in love and war I guess...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    dilbert2 wrote: »
    ... but why does a man and a woman honestly need a piece of paper to convince one another that they love each other?

    In fairness Dilbert. Many people op not to get married these days. Sure many do as well. But more and more are opting to not :)

    But you mention that things can become messy... from a legal standpoint when seperating. But blame the Irish government for now allowing recently seperated partners for a long time to have such rights and legal claims (do believe its called "common law spose")


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭FlawedGenius


    It stops STDs and means children can grow up with settled parents.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    It stops STDs and means children can grow up with settled parents.

    How does it stop STD's? Do you get some kind of immunity when you are married?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    How does it stop STD's? Do you get some kind of immunity when you are married?

    :rolleyes:
    you serious dude?
    or are you a troll?
    or ... drunk or something?

    you get two clean people who just sleep with each other = no chances of catching an STD. Of course, providing both parties dont already have one.

    On the flip side, you get two clean people who one or both parties sleep with other people outside allows the possibility of catching an STD. Not being rude man, but its kinda obvious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    LighterGuy wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    you serious dude?
    or are you a troll?
    or ... drunk or something?

    you get two clean people who just sleep with each other = no chances of catching an STD. Of course, providing both parties dont already have one.

    On the flip side, you get two clean people who one or both parties sleep with other people outside allows the possibility of catching an STD. Not being rude man, but its kinda obvious.

    So what you are saying is that marriage is a guarantee that your partner won't cheat on you?

    I'm basically pointing out that the point raised by the poster i quoted is asinine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭CarMe


    paddyandy wrote: »
    CarMe wrote: »
    I hope to be with my boyfriend forever, we live together and have a child but I can't understand any reason to get wed. Not because I'm afraid we won't last, I just can't see the point. Ww have everything we need for a lovely life together, what difference would a piece of paper make?

    As can happen the boyfriend takes off what protection do you have without that 'piece of paper' for your self and the child.?
    No I still don't get it, what would this magic piece of paper do exactly?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    As a married spouse you would be entitled to ~half his assets if you split up. As an unmarried spouse you would be entitled to maintenance payments for the child, probably not for your yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Zen65 wrote: »
    The context of the question is not clear to me: what do you mean by "natural"?

    Our society is filled with rituals and technology that are patently unnatural, from wrist watches to mobile phones, and including activities such as queueing, wearing wigs, dieting, voting, investing money, and so forth. Marriage is unnatural in the same way: it is a ritual that was consciously introduced as a mechanism for achieving an end.

    It's hard to say exactly why some of these rituals were introduced. There is no doubt that our ape-like ancestors discovered early on that the species would not survive nor prosper without some level of collaboration between beings in order to most effectively acquire food and clothing, and later to build suitable dwellings beyond the caves. For collaboration to work it was necessary to have various forms of understanding between the more aggressive males and in time this would require some sort of rule which ensured that battles over females did not tear communities apart. Hence was introduced the idea of denoting a special relationship between a man and a woman, which gave rise to further conventions:
    • The children born into communities would belong to established parents and be raised by them.
    • The woman in such a partnership was not to be preyed upon by other males looking to mate.
    • Bed linen and coffee mornings

    I expect that the initial partnerships were polygamous in nature, that is to say the male may have had many female partners whereas the women would each only have one (shared) male. This arrangement was very suitable for the women (home duties shared, less cleaning up after "him", and plenty of other interesting company to talk with) but was less suited to unlucky non-alpha males. Eventually the alpha males would come to fear packs of roaming nerd males who were bitter at having no partners, and after many frenzied pencil-attacks on the alpha males a new societal norm began to emerge in which the alpha male only claimed one female partner (the best looking one), leaving the nerds to sort themselves out with the left-overs.

    As pagan religions increased their influence on societies, some of the most bitter nerd-male priests decreed that the God entities (there were more than one, before the Gods were amalgamated by later religions) favoured monogamy, leaving more women available for the priests (pre-Christianity male priests could have female partners). Hence many (but not all) religions imposed monogamy as a norm.

    Centuries later, after the Christian church became established following the revelations of Moses, the matrimonial vow was made to have some sort of legal status. This had the advantage that the most nerdy of males who could not otherwise find females would prosper as lawyers, which in turn provided them with money with which they could afford to buy the cheapest of females.

    Why did marriage catch on? Probably because societies which did not kill each other over potential mates bred more and so prospered. The very existence of the matrimonial tradition reduced in-fighting and so societies found other ways to focus their energies.... like sports. Sports gave rise to healthier populations which in turn boosted the population growth. The rapid growth of societies which practised marriage led to the idea of marriage becoming increasingly popular. It is an example of a natural evolution of an unnatural act.

    You can fill in the obvious blanks and simplifications yourself by consulting Wikipedia.

    So Op, why did you ask?


    Z

    :D



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭CarMe


    So it just boils down to money? Vomit!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,680 ✭✭✭policarp


    CarMe wrote: »
    So it just boils down to money? Vomit!
    Are you surprised?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    CarMe wrote: »
    So it just boils down to money? Vomit!

    I genuinely don't believe women that say "I don't need a piece of paper to endorse my relationship with my spouse".

    They are just trying to pretend it doesn't bother them.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    Not a"Magic" piece of paper but a legal document like a €50 euro note.Your best friend when love "TURNS" sour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    So what you are saying is that marriage is a guarantee that your partner won't cheat on you?

    I'm basically pointing out that the point raised by the poster i quoted is asinine.

    Ahhhh, the ol' "twisting" post (god I love it :pac: )

    Ah please, you messed up and trying to recover :rolleyes:
    You know what he meant ... two people, together and just them. Dont try and spin things.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭LH Pathe


    Tbh after watching some blazè pals that are due to be married work their way around the bar tonight way more than us eternaly single somewhat french types, maybe true love / sincerity is unnatural.

    all the good uns r taken alright.. Yeah.


  • Site Banned Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭paddyandy


    The Esc key can be very handy and it's nice to know it's always there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭CarMe


    CarMe wrote: »
    So it just boils down to money? Vomit!

    I genuinely don't believe women that say "I don't need a piece of paper to endorse my relationship with my spouse".

    They are just trying to pretend it doesn't bother them.
    So you clearly don't actually know any women then, just the steriotype you read about. It's quite sad and I do have sympathy for you but you must be very small minded to even think a woman can't just love a man, to love him and for nothing more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,515 ✭✭✭LH Pathe


    I condone marriage. it's a proper bond with no space for get out / cheat without a sense of guilt clause


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    I genuinely don't believe women that say "I don't need a piece of paper to endorse my relationship with my spouse".

    They are just trying to pretend it doesn't bother them.
    The very thought of being married and someone's "wife" makes me feel like I am suffocating and I might as well wrap a ball and chain around my neck and jump off the nearest bridge. I am more than happy to be a partner though. I understand that marriage is important for some people but it ain't for me.

    I would love a legal partership though. I can't be arsed with the church, big day, declaring our love infront of hundreds of people etc. However, I would like the document that states that we are legally responsible for each other. Without it, one partner could be in an accident, end up in hospital and you have no rights to visit them/have a say in their medical care. If their family don't like you, they could make life very difficult. Plus grief does strange things to people and even if they do like you, they could totally take over and exclude you.

    So for me, what I would like is to be able to go into a lawyer's office with my partner and we sign the document saying that we agree to legal responsibility for each other. No fuss or hassle. It would be like making a will except instead of declaring what you want to do when dead, you are declaring what you want to do when alive. We also include terms like a pre-nup. If we can't decide who gets what in the event we break up when we are madly in love, then it would be 100 times harder if we actually broke up and hated each other. I think it is natural to want to protect those you love and if marrying gives you that protection then it is natural.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭CarMe


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    I genuinely don't believe women that say "I don't need a piece of paper to endorse my relationship with my spouse".

    They are just trying to pretend it doesn't bother them.
    The very thought of being married and someone's "wife" makes me feel like I am suffocating and I might as well wrap a ball and chain around my neck and jump off the nearest bridge. I am more than happy to be a partner though. I understand that marriage is important for some people but it ain't for me.

    I would love a legal partership though. I can't be arsed with the church, big day, declaring our love infront of hundreds of people etc. However, I would like the document that states that we are legally responsible for each other. Without it, one partner could be in an accident, end up in hospital and you have no rights to visit them/have a say in their medical care. If their family don't like you, they could make life very difficult. Plus grief does strange things to people and even if they do like you, they could totally take over and exclude you.

    So for me, what I would like is to be able to go into a lawyer's office with my partner and we sign the document saying that we agree to legal responsibility for each other. No fuss or hassle. It would be like making a will except instead of declaring what you want to do when dead, you are declaring what you want to do when alive. We also include terms like a pre-nup. If we can't decide who gets what in the event we break up when we are madly in love, then it would be 100 times harder if we actually broke up and hated each other. I think it is natural to want to protect those you love and if marrying gives you that protection then it is natural.
    These are my exact thoughts articulated well! My partner is my next of kin, him and my child are the sole beneficiaries of my will and I would love to sign a document that states we are responsible for each other. I do not wish to become a wife though, what's the point? I love my partner but we simply don't need the "big day" to declare it, we know it, isn't that the important thing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The fact that it happens means that it's natural.

    Having sex is natural. Getting married is a ritual.

    An orangutan using a wood saw is somewhere in between.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    CarMe wrote: »
    These are my exact thoughts articulated well! My partner is my next of kin, him and my child are the sole beneficiaries of my will and I would love to sign a document that states we are responsible for each other. I do not wish to become a wife though, what's the point? I love my partner but we simply don't need the "big day" to declare it, we know it, isn't that the important thing?
    I'm glad you got it! Some people say "well what's the difference between a wife and partner?". I just want the security of knowing that legally we have taken care of each other. I don't want the wedding or rings or having to find the perfect gift once a year to celebrate the day we got married. All I want is to be a partner in a relationship and we can celebrate it when ever we want, not when we feel like we "must".

    It's strange how two words can have such an effect! Partner makes me feel like we're equals in it together and can make it up as we go along, whereas wife sounds like a role I have to play.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    CarMe wrote: »
    So you clearly don't actually know any women then, just the steriotype you read about. It's quite sad and I do have sympathy for you but you must be very small minded to even think a woman can't just love a man, to love him and for nothing more.

    You are patronizing, condescending, ignorant and wrong. This is clearly shown by the fact you agree with this statement :
    Paddy Cow wrote: »

    I would love a legal partership though. I can't be arsed with the church, big day, declaring our love infront of hundreds of people etc. However, I would like the document that states that we are legally responsible for each other. Without it, one partner could be in an accident, end up in hospital and you have no rights to visit them/have a say in their medical care. If their family don't like you, they could make life very difficult. Plus grief does strange things to people and even if they do like you, they could totally take over and exclude you.

    So for me, what I would like is to be able to go into a lawyer's office with my partner and we sign the document saying that we agree to legal responsibility for each other. No fuss or hassle. It would be like making a will except instead of declaring what you want to do when dead, you are declaring what you want to do when alive. We also include terms like a pre-nup. If we can't decide who gets what in the event we break up when we are madly in love, then it would be 100 times harder if we actually broke up and hated each other. I think it is natural to want to protect those you love and if marrying gives you that protection then it is natural.

    This is what a marriage is. You obviously don't understand what the word means and think it means wedding in a white dress. Going into a registry office and getting a piece of paper that legally binds a couple together is a marriage certificate.

    Thank you both for proving my theory.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    This is what a marriage is. You obviously don't understand what the word means and think it means wedding in a white dress. Going into a registry office and getting a piece of paper that legally binds a couple together is a marriage certificate.

    Thank you both for proving my theory.
    If they were the same thing gay people would get married, not enter a civil partnership ;)


Advertisement
Advertisement